Dr Rupy: Doing exercise for 40 minutes, time for me, time with no distractions, time where you sweat and you push your body and you're doing something which is completely unrelated to work.
Zanna: I love and love it. And I desperately try and do it every day, but not necessarily intense every day, even just like a 20 minute walk or something where I'm moving my body and I'm not attached to technology. That's the dream.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests while we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: Entrepreneurship has a real glamour to it these days with images of global startups such as Tesla, Lyft, Gymshark, Monzo and more. But what is startup life really like? And is it as desirable as people make it out to be? Today, I'm thrilled to welcome along two good friends of mine to the show, Zanna van Dijk and Natalie Glaze. These entrepreneurial, passionate ocean lovers wanted to create a business which was a force for good, a business that aligns with their morals and actually serves the planet. To fulfill this, they co-founded Stay Wild Swim in 2018, an ethical and sustainable swimwear brand made from regenerated ocean plastic in the heart of London. And since its launch, it's quickly become a leader in the sustainable fashion industry with a radically transparent supply chain, showing that you can consciously produce clothing without compromising style and quality. I personally know just how much effort goes into sourcing the raw materials, the fulfillment process, the seasonless slow fashion approach. And it's incredible to have seen it grow. It's been featured in Vogue, showcased at London Fashion Week, stocked in Selfridges and approved by Anna Wintour, someone who I didn't actually know who they were, I must admit, until I had to look her up. But Stay Wild Swim has seen huge success in a short period of time, and it's set to continue shaking up the fashion world. But what are the costs of starting up such an incredibly successful company on the outset of it? Beyond the glamour and the success, I wanted to know what the day-to-day is like, the stresses, the sacrifice, and how do these young entrepreneurial women stay grounded? What is their secret? So in today, we spend a long time talking about the start of their journey, their history, what how they both connected and how they grew the concept of what became Stay Wild, their rapid journey to success thus far and the features across all the magazines that I mentioned, including the biggest social media account in the world. What stresses they've accounted on their short journey and what their coping mechanisms are that they've learned along the way. And the reason why I asked this on this particular show is because I think there are a lot of transferable coping mechanisms that yourself as a listener and myself can actually learn from, regardless of whether you're interested in startup or not. There are a lot of things that people have to go through during the process of starting your own business, and it can be exceptionally stressful. We also talk about Zanna's personal illness that led her to understand the value of stopping and taking time for yourself. And we also end up with advice that both Natalie and Zanna have for listeners to cope with anxiety and stress, regardless of whether you're starting up something as a business or just trying to deal with the current time we live in. I think it's really important to contextualise the information that we share on the podcast with real life stories, and I really hope you enjoy listening to this inspiring one and you find it motivating and useful. And the struggles and uncertainty of startup, I think is a particularly interesting lens to look at lifestyle medicine, particularly during a pandemic. I'll summarise the some of the best bits at the end and the best bits of advice that I have, including some top tips and books that I find exceptionally useful during this time. So without further ado, the first 45 minutes is really about their journey and how they started Stay Wild, and then we get into a bit about their lifestyle and how they cope with the daily stresses of a business. I hope you enjoy it.
Dr Rupy: Zanna, Natalie, thank you so much for coming in. I really do appreciate you coming on the podcast.
Zanna: Thank you for having us. It's very exciting.
Natalie: So very excited.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I'm glad.
Zanna: A long time listener, mate. Long time listener.
Dr Rupy: I know, yeah, you told me, which is which is great. And it's great to have you Zan particularly on the pod because we have our sort of entrepreneurial chats every month or so. And I've been wanting to have you both in because I think this aspect of entrepreneurship and, you know, the trials and everything that you see on the gram is not really a version of what is reality. And so I think the aspect that I want to focus on with health and wellness is how you guys cope given that you have built a business over the last couple of years and now going into what we've just been through over the last six months and we probably will go to. But before we get into that, why don't you introduce yourselves to the audience and we can get going from there.
Zanna: So I'm Zanna, 28, keep thinking I'm 27, but I'm not. I am a blogger, content creator and the co-founder of Stay Wild Swim.
Natalie: I feel like I should start with my age now. I think that's what we do. My name is Natalie Glaze. I'm 28.
Zanna: Yeah. Lovely age that. The older one of the two.
Dr Rupy: We feel really old by the way. I'm 30, I'm 35, just to put it out there.
Zanna: She doesn't look a day over 25.
Natalie: I am the co-founder of Stay Wild, working alongside Zanna. I always feels a bit weird calling myself an entrepreneur, but I'm a, I'm an entrepreneur. I kind of talk about my life online, so kind of do the blogging side of things, which is how me and Zanna met. Talking about sustainability, business and about to launch a new business as well, sustainable jewelry business. So, yeah, fingers in many pies, but sustainable swimwear is what brought me and Zanna together. And that's why we're here today.
Dr Rupy: That's immense. I let's start off with that actually, because the word entrepreneur, I think now has like quite a cool edge to it. It's quite kind of the hip thing to do. Like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. But what do you think about when someone calls you an entrepreneur? Like you said, you're you're like, you know, feeling a bit embarrassed to call yourself an entrepreneur. What does that term actually mean to to you guys?
Natalie: I think it's a funny one because I think we're all brought up to not kind of not feel like you're bragging about what you do and not feeling like, I don't know, there's certain words which have certain connotations. And although me and Zanna are entrepreneurs, we're business women, we're business owners and very proud of that. It is that thing of you you tend to, and I do it a lot, like talk down what you do. And I feel like I have to learn to embrace like success and doing well, like doing a running a business and running it. And I'm just like, I'm an entrepreneur. But I think it's weird because I had this conversation the other day how entrepreneurship has this very glamorous kind of aspiration. Lots of people want to be an entrepreneur, but when I think of being an entrepreneur, I think of just like slog, hard work, graft and actually the less glamorous side of it. So I think there is this kind of glamorization of people wanting to be labeled an entrepreneur, but actually the hard work and the graft behind it, it's not actually that glamorous. When people say, I want to be an entrepreneur, I want to run a business. I'm like, have you thought about this? Are you sure? Do you know what comes with this?
Zanna: I also think it's just very British to be self-deprecating. And I think there's also an element, well, first for me, I don't know about you Nat, of of imposter syndrome where I don't think I'm worthy of the title of entrepreneur because I don't I feel like that's like a very a very high standard to set yourself. And I'm like, I don't think I'm an entrepreneur. I'm just somebody who does this thing and has some swimwear and has a great time and runs these businesses. But I think entrepreneur, yeah, I I have imposter syndrome about that term and I feel and also self-deprecating, I feel, um, feel embarrassed or cringy or brag like I'm bragging or being arrogant to call myself an entrepreneur. I'm just somebody having giving it my best shot. Giving business my best shot.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really strange that, isn't it? That now, I I I totally agree. I think it's like a British thing. We're quite self-deprecating, trying, you know, put ourselves down a bit. But it's a weird thing how the term entrepreneur has um has almost evolved over the last few decades. Because when I was born in 1985, and uh when I was growing up, my kind of like idea of an entrepreneur was someone who was selling door-to-door or was, you know, something that my my dad did, you know, he started his own business and you know, it was just on the corner and, you know, that's the kind of thing that I think of with entrepreneur. But now it's got that air of like, you know, you're a billionaire or you're Elon Musk or you're doing something in tech or something that scales across the globe. Whereas in reality, it is that graft, that small business mindset and just creating um an atmosphere or creating a business that you can use to support your own families and feed your own, you know, your children, whatever.
Zanna: Yeah. Completely agree.
Dr Rupy: So, so you guys met through the whole blogosphere stuff. Tell me through that.
Zanna: So we met through the gram. Actually, I think we probably met at some sort of overhyped fitness event in 2015 with green juices and yoga. I feel like that was probably the vibe, wasn't it Nat?
Natalie: That was our vibe.
Zanna: And then it was totally our vibe. And then we went on like a detox Ibiza retreat together. We got put in this tiny room and I think that was just when we realized, all right, we're going to be mates now because we're like we didn't have a choice. We shared this tiny space together. This was literally 2015. This was like five years ago. Um, and then we both kind of went off in our separate directions in the blogosphere. So we first connected talking about fitness and green juice and all that sort of stuff that was very trendy back in the clean eating days. And then we went off in our different directions and we both ended up of our own accord talking about sustainability online. And then Nat saw me do a tweet. I did a little cheeky tweet. This is in probably 2017 saying, oh, imagine if we could make something out of ocean plastic because I was just been educating myself about ocean plastic. I'd started doing beach cleans. I was really trying to use my platform to raise awareness of this issue. And then I did this tweet saying, I wonder if we could make something out of ocean plastic. And then Nat just slid into my DMs like a slippery little dolphin. And she said, oh, let's go for some brunch, avocado toast, still basic. And we literally rocked up with like a PDF.
Dr Rupy: No way. You came up with like a what a business plan or?
Natalie: Well, a bit of back story to the sliding in the DMs. Um, so obviously like Zanna said, I've been learning about sustainability and the ocean plastic and the kind of devastating effects of that. And it was so interesting that we'd both kind of taken that turn in our career and what we were passionate about. And then I, um, I can't actually remember when it was, but I heard about ocean plastic being used in material. And then I remember I was away with a friend and I just said, I wonder if you could turn that into swimwear. That's such a lovely story. I wonder if you could take it out of the ocean and turn it into pieces which are then worn into the ocean. And then I started to do a bit of research, started to gather information. I created a huge Excel, did a bit of back research, and then I just thought, this is a beast. Like this is a really cool idea, but I don't think I have enough time. I don't know enough. I haven't got enough resources. But I had quite a lot of research. And then it was like two months later, I saw Zanna's tweet. And I just thought, I've got lots of research. I've got loads of, I've done quite a lot of like leg work here. I wonder whether one, it'd be interesting for her if she's going to go ahead. But then it like reignited that interest of, but that was a really cool idea. Maybe I should just see if she'd be interested in doing it together because we've clearly got a similar ethos and we knew each other. I knew how hard working she was. I thought, you know what, actually she'd be a really great business partner. So then I thought, why not make a business plan, like PDF and basically pitch it to her, but disguise it under avocado toast. So I basically bribed her into it. I was like, we should go for a branch. We haven't seen each other in ages. Let's catch up. And then I just got out my laptop at the end and was like, so, there's a really cool business idea here. And I think that you'll really love it. And you know, you know, I would love to hear your thoughts. And then we kind of started discussing and it was very basic what I'd put down. It was like a skeleton idea. And then it it just kind of seemed to spark a conversation and then it was a bit, it was very much like it was never an official decision of, yeah, this is a good idea, let's go into business. It was more of a, that sounds cool. Should we do a bit more research? Actually, that's a really good idea. Maybe let's just start an Instagram. I don't know when we said we were going to go into business together, but somehow we ended up here.
Zanna: Yeah, there was never a moment. There was never a moment where we both said like, okay then, this is the business. We both just went, let's just keep having meetings and like talking through our ideas. Let's like make, let's make a Google Drive. Let's pop our all our research in there. Let's make a spreadsheet. Let's let's make an Instagram account. Let's like just reserve the website domain. And then it just kind of kept going and kept going. And then next thing you know, we were in a factory making samples. And we were like, okay then, I seem as though we have a swimwear business on our hands.
Natalie: It just, I feel like it just escalated. We had this kind of, it almost like took on a life of its own and suddenly we were like, okay, we own a swimwear business. Here we are.
Zanna: Yeah, definitely. I mean, that makes it sound very easy. We, like, to put it out there, we have zero background in fashion. Um, so the the big leg up that we had is that we're both social media content creators. So we knew we had a platform on which we could launch a business, which is something which so many people struggle with getting their product to an audience. We already had an audience there and an audience who engaged with the message of sustainability. So we were like, this is a really amazing opportunity. This business makes sense and we have people who we think will actually like this product. Um, but then we had this massive gap in there of experience in fashion. Um, so that was like a massive learning curve. How do you find a factory? How much material do you need? Where do you get stitching from? Oh my god, what about labels, packaging? How do you keep it carbon neutral? How do we get a web developer? Like every single element of it, we had never pretty much done before. So, yeah, it was just a huge uphill learning curve.
Natalie: Every day, I remember just messaging each other like, oh my gosh, we haven't thought about this. Oh gosh. Hygiene liners. Hygiene liners.
Dr Rupy: How how do you what?
Natalie: Yeah, so basically, you legally can't sell swimwear without a hygiene liner on, which is kind of the protective seal at the bottom for people to be able to try on. We were like, we want to create a sustainable swimwear company, but they were all made from plastic. And this was, I feel like this was maybe a month before we were supposed to launch and we just were like, oh my gosh, what are we going to do? So we just got into a whole of Googling, researching, reaching out to loads of people and found this one company which could do it from tree pulp. So it's all like kind of um compostible hygiene liners. Found it and it was like 100 million times more expensive than any hygiene liner out there. But we're like, we're going to have to do it. Because and I just think it was stuff like that just kept popping up and then we were just like, okay, right, let's just Google hard for like four or five days and just be in this little hole of research. But yeah, it was very much a learning as we go, making up as we go along.
Zanna: Our list of things to do, we had like this big list in a spreadsheet of things we had to do before we launched the business. It never got shorter because we'd tick a few things off and be like, oh, hygiene liners. Ah, these tags. Oh, hang tags. Oh, safety pins for those. And then we'd be like, it never ends.
Natalie: Oh, we're so naive.
Dr Rupy: But but this is this is the reality of business when you're when you're doing it because it it comes from an idea and it evolves and then you're like, oh my god, I haven't thought about all these different things. But before we go into that, because this is fascinating because I didn't know anything about this, even though we've been chatting for ages. But Natalie, do you do you have a background in entrepreneurship or like when you were growing up? Did you ever envisage having a business or, you know, fending for yourself?
Natalie: Um, I wouldn't, no, I definitely didn't have a background in business or entrepreneurship. I always saw myself working in media. I did media at uni, went and worked in agencies. So I had a bit of a background in marketing, um, and I always knew visual side of things was very important to me. And then obviously created social media account, went down that side, which I suppose in a sense is running a business, like you're running, well, it is running a business online. So it was we kind of had learned that side of things, but I did always have this side of me that thought I'm going to own a business one day. And I had loads of really random awful ideas. At uni, I was going to launch an activewear company and did all these drawings, had loads of samples delivered. Me and my friend were going to do it and then we were like, this is really hard work, absolutely not. So I always was coming up with and then I wanted to launch a brunch cafe once.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Natalie: And then we like found the location. We all though. I always wanted to launch a brunch cafe. We're going to have like marble and wood and it was going to be so basic. It was honestly. And then I and then someone was like, do you realize how hard work it is to run like a cafe? And I was like, yeah, no, I don't want to do that anymore. So I think I always had that kind of, I just don't think I'm a very good employee. I wasn't very good at being in like a nine to five job. So I was always looking for how can I create my own career? But I never thought swimwear because I didn't have any fashion or design background. Like I you always just assume you see a fashion business and you assume that you have to go to fashion uni or have some kind of background. So that never really was an option.
Dr Rupy: I I I hear a lot of entrepreneurial journeys and I always think to myself, it's almost where opportunity meets passion. So the opportunity to do something was obviously with with Zan and you had shared interests. And and that passion really comes through and that if you don't have that passion, you wouldn't be able to, you know, do the endless hours looking for that hygiene uh piece of the garment. Yeah, exactly. that is sustainable and is in line with your mission as well. So it's it's quite amazing. And and Zan, did you have any entrepreneurial sort of thoughts when you were growing or maybe like in your family or?
Zanna: No, you know what? So, you know, Rupy, I studied to be a speech therapist. So I studied to be a speech and language therapist. I was going to go into the NHS, um, and I was going to specialize in stroke rehabilitation and hopefully work in a hospital. So I had kind of just seen myself working in in that industry and following that path. And when the opportunity arose to do social media and to work for myself in that way, I definitely thrived working for myself. I think because I I'm a little bit of a workaholic and that kind of gave me gave me a place in which I could thrive and I was work, I think motivation is never ending when you're working for yourself on your own business and your own project. And when you're working for somebody else, sometimes it can be a more of a challenge to to ignite that motivation to to benefit somebody else. And if it's something that you're passionate about and it's your business and ultimately the harder that you work, the more it's going to succeed, I found that that was a situation in which I thrived. So then when this opportunity came up with Nat to work on our own business, I just thought to myself like this is something which aligns with number one, working for myself, but number two, working on something that I'm really passionate about and turning something negative, ocean plastic into something positive and actually making it profitable in a business. So like a business which is profitable but also supports people on the planet, which is very rare nowadays. So it kind of felt like a really unique opportunity. But I definitely don't have a background in entrepreneurship, but I have blagged my way through life and worked very hard. So hopefully that's carried me well to this point.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. I mean, for you in particular, you know, you had Zanna van Dijk, you have this this big social media following, you have brands climbing at, you know, at you left, right, center. There's almost a path that is, I wouldn't I don't want to say easier, but it's a little bit more sort of like, you know, it's in front of you. Whereas it sounds like to me, particularly from these short stories you've already heard, this is an uphill struggle. So how did you make that conscious effort to concentrate a big portion of your time on something that you don't know whether is a given?
Zanna: I think a lot of that, and I'm going to be really honest here, was naivety. And I always say ignorance is bliss. And in those early days, I have to admit that we were quite ignorant. We we were ignorant. We did not know what was coming and we threw ourselves into this business like all guns blazing like this bit like business. We're women. We can run this business. We've got this. Like this is going to be easy. And then as we've said, it was a bit harder than we anticipated. And um, yeah, I think you're you're very right. Like social media, there's this one path you can follow, which is the the easier path. Like brand deals are a great income and producing social media content is incredible and it's a really beautiful creative release. Um, but I think for me, I do feel I do find a purpose in that, but I think this business is the ultimate purpose. And I'd like to think that what I'm doing with my platforms now with the Zanna van Dijk social media platform is helping to push Stay Wild as well. It's all interwoven together because I think Stay Wild is a business that's actually going to have more impact than I personally am going to have. Stay Wild is going to pull more plastic out the ocean and help change things in the fashion industry. Like the things that we've achieved with this business, the people that we've spoken to, the people that we've influenced with this, like all the stuff with London Fashion Week, which I'm sure we can talk about later. I'm just like, I couldn't have done that without Stay Wild. So I I'm more than happy to push on into this world which is completely alien to me, um, because it feels like, yeah, it has more of a purpose.
Dr Rupy: And and Nat, tell me through the timeline. So this infamous deck that you uh that you sneakily showed Zan, what what year was that?
Natalie: Uh, um, well, it'd be about three years ago because we launched the business just under two. So yeah, probably about three and then I probably started that deck about the year before that. But I say deck. It was like a PowerPoint presentation with like a few pictures and some stats.
Dr Rupy: The the sort of firelighters to this, you know, fire now. But um, so you you're having these meetings, you're uh building up this Google Doc where you're taking off checklist and all that kind of stuff. Was there ever a point where you guys sat down and and had like a grand vision of what you wanted to to see, what you wanted to create? Or is that come a lot later?
Natalie: I think we always had a purpose. Like when we all the conversations we had at the beginning were we want to create something that's more than just swimwear. It's more than just a product. We wanted to have, we always say this, we wanted to have like a business with a bigger purpose than that. Not only, I think we always were very aligned from the beginning with pieces that had a purpose that used sustainable materials, but more than just sustainability, like we always knew we wanted our pieces to empower women. We always had a very clear understanding that and this was both of us have always been on exactly the same page of showcasing a variety of women's bodies, making sure that people felt good when they came to our page. Also, we always knew that we wanted it to have like an education piece. Like we've always had blogs, resources, directory posts about other businesses. And that's all been very clear from the start. And I think we the thing that's changed probably the most is we always knew what we wanted our why to be, our essence of our business, and we knew what we wanted to achieve and the feel of our business. But maybe our, I think as we've learned and as we've grown, our designs of our pieces have probably, when we first started, we created pieces which me and Zanna just wanted to wear to the beach. We were like, oh, that would look great on me and Zanna. Like, let's just wear that. And then I think now as you get to know your audience, we've had to really learn how to look at things from more of a design perspective, think what are the story behind these pieces? Like what do the colors tell? How will that fit on different bodies? How will that look on different women? What's our niche in the design world? Like what makes our pieces stand out when we're stocked in Selfridges, but when you go on to the shop floor, how can you recognize Stay Wild? Those were questions which we probably hadn't asked ourselves. And that's been something that's really developed over the last two years. Like we've got such a clearer, like if you look at our first pieces, they were very simple. Whereas now you can really recognize our pieces. Whereas I think before it was just like a simple black one piece, simple kind of coral one piece. So I think we've always had our why and our mission and that has never changed. We probably maybe it's evolved and we've added elements, but we've always had a very clear mission. But our, yeah, we've definitely become better designers.
Zanna: And I'd say one thing that just came to my mind just then from from the beginning is we always said, we were very aware that we were novices and this was a new business for us and we didn't know if it would succeed. And we were also very realistic that it might not succeed. And we just said, even if this fails in the first year or two years, we just released something we're proud of and then we can close it down and be happy with what we did. And like we literally said that from day one. We said, we will push this, we will try and grow this, but like fashion is really hard. The vast majority of new fashion brands fail. So we were just like, okay, we're just going to go into this, give it our all, but as long as we're proud of what we've created, we're happy.
Natalie: And I think that's what we've done with every decision. Every decision we've made, we've always said, is this something we'll look back on and be really proud of? Even if it made us no money, even if it did close down, it's every single decision that we've made throughout the business, it's always been made thinking, will we look back at this in a year's time and be like, I'm really proud of what we've done at each step. And I think we have achieved that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Natalie: I'm really proud of what we've done.
Dr Rupy: I mean, I mean, before we get into the story of the the start, uh, in 2018, um, when you when you launched the business, you found a web developer. Just a few of those things that I've picked out here of of the way you describe the business with purpose, your why, your story, they almost could be elements of like a Simon Sinek, uh, talk. Did you have any sort of early influences of how you told the story of your brand and how you actually went through the sort of mechanism, the process of of describing that story? Or was it just something that, you know, you were just picking up along the way and then and and realized this is something you have to do?
Zanna: I think it came naturally because because it was our passion and the the business naturally has its own story. I think the nature of taking fishing nets from the ocean, transforming that into a material and putting it on women's bodies so they can wear it in the ocean. I feel like that naturally in itself comes with its own story. So for us, it just flowed naturally as the business progressed.
Natalie: And I think one thing that we said right at the beginning is although maybe it is to the detriment of our, like we haven't got any background and we aren't business ladies or business people. And we said, let's talk about that. Like let's be open, let's engage people from the beginning. We always said, we don't really know what the best choice is. So let's ask our customers. Let's ask our Instagram audience. Let's get their opinion and feedback. And lots of people have always said, was that a marketing technique? But it was like it was purely we didn't really know the answer. So we thought, you know what, let's just see what they say because they're probably going to be buying it. And I think as we've grown, I've probably I have definitely like watched more business like um talks and listened to more podcasts and kind of have been like, okay, well that's clearly our why and kind of understanding what fitted where. But the actual journey of it has been very natural. And I think a lot of that has been, we were probably storytellers before. We had our own platforms. We always told a story of kind of ourselves, our lives, what we were doing. And I think actually that really helped us with the business. So we looked at it from a storytelling perspective, getting our audience involved, getting them to help. We always say that they're our third team member. So it's like me, Zanna and then our audience who probably know better than us. We're blagging it guys. No, we'll be like, guys, help us. We don't know what we're doing. Like can you help choose this?
Dr Rupy: It's to be honest, I think, yeah, your experience, um, you know, in in that sort of social media world that's evolved so much over the last five years has definitely helped you create this really trustworthy brand that people have actually have a true connection with because they've seen it grow. I mean, I've heard it grow before it even started and seen it grow like incredibly. Um, and that transparency, I think is really endearing. And I think more brands now are trying to adopt that method, almost like catching up with it. And we'll talk about competitors and all that kind of stuff a bit later. But so so you've got a web developer, you've got how do you do the designs? Who who did you did you do that yourself or?
Natalie: You your mom sketched some bodies up. And then and then we like drew things on the bodies and that was that, wasn't it?
Zanna: I was telling this story the other day. We actually went to the factory. We managed, I literally think we emailed about 200 factories. And they were like, bring your designs along. Brought along parchment paper, which we unrolled. We're like, these are the designs we want to create like hand sketched pencil drawings. And I honestly think they laughed at us.
Natalie: We needed CADs. We needed digital drawing and it's called a CAD. Have you got CADs? And like, have you got? And I remember just being like, what's a CAD? I was like, will these not do? And they were just like, I can I just say our first design when when they made the first sample, it looked like a Borat thong. It was genuinely, I'm like, I'm going to cry. It's so funny. It was the like it was absolutely hilarious. We have these pictures of us in the factory on the first sampling day and it's actually like wearing a Borat thing over your over your shoulders and the biggest wedgie, just completely unfunctional. You couldn't walk.
Zanna: That's what happens when you do hand drawn drawings and take them to the factory. They were probably all laughing about us like in their meetings being like, did you those girls who came in with like the rolls of parchment paper. Like what era do you think they live in?
Dr Rupy: So it was only then that the penny dropped that you actually had to create digital versions of the design.
Zanna: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And you have to like we went back and forth on those first samples and yeah, it was so ridiculously hard work getting those done from the Borat thong through to a fully fledged one piece that actually functioned.
Natalie: The thing is factory language is like a whole other language. Like the words they use, the technical like conversations. We'd go in and they'd be they'd be asking us stuff and me and Zanna would be looking at each other like, I actually don't know what they've just said. Like because it's it's a whole technical language we had to learn. And we were like Googling stuff like what does that term mean? And like the way that kind of fittings and sampling to get it right, the the technical terms and the way it's not just a visual like that needs to be a little bit more to the right. Can we have a bit more coverage here? Can you move this up? It has to be very specific. And I think that that was, I mean, that was a journey and I definitely think that we've learned a lot of like kind of technical language and know a lot more about factory speak. But honestly, like they would say stuff and I'd literally be as completely blank like, I'm sorry, can you explain that? Like what does that mean?
Zanna: And even fashion is much more technical than we anticipated. Even just like if you want a material to sit a certain way, it's like how is it stitched? How is the elastic stitched to the fabric? And what's the tension that's put through that? And you don't realize this until you're two years into a fashion business. So, yeah, I definitely say it's it's been a massive learning curve, but it all turned out all right in the end.
Dr Rupy: And do you do you still use this factory? Do you do?
Zanna: Oh, we've moved twice since.
Natalie: Yeah, we've moved a few times. Um, the first, because we didn't really know what we were looking for. We knew we wanted it to be in London. We wanted it to be local. We wanted to support local community. We also wanted to be able to go in because we thought there's no, like we don't know what we're doing. We want to be able to pop in and them send us like an email and go in and say, what did that actually mean? Like can you show us? So I think we knew we wanted it to be London. We knew we wanted it to be ethical. We wanted to see the working conditions. We also wanted to go in, but we didn't really know what to ask for in terms of like, can you show us examples of previous work? Can you show us like what machines do you use? This is all stuff we've had to learn. And as we've learned, we've realized, okay, we need more technical elements in terms of machinery. So let's look for a factory specifically in London that has that. So I think we've had to, as we've learned, we've know what we're looking for in a factory better. So we're still in London, but we've, yeah, we've moved because the first one wasn't very swimwear specific.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Uh-huh.
Natalie: Whereas now it's a lot more technical around swimwear and fit and
Zanna: And our current factory is just great in terms of sustainability and they're really striving to do better and they've got really innovative technology being brought into them and I just feel like they really align with our values and our ethos.
Natalie: Yeah, because they're zero waste. They don't they won't work with any brand unless they're sustainable. And they're always coming up with ideas of how to do things better. And I think for us, it's really it's really crucial that we have a business, like a factory that we can work with that has the same ethos because typically like the fashion industry and factories, it's really wasteful. And there's a huge amount of waste just in like the sampling process, huge amount of single use plastic and hangers. Whereas now we're able to, that was a bit of a fight with the first factory to be like, can we make sure it's not wrapped in this? Can we make sure it's not done like this? And they were a bit like, but why? Everyone else does. We're like, yeah, but that's kind of not the point of our business.
Zanna: Well, they'll try and charge you more money to do things more sustainably. Yeah, we're not going to wrap it in that. We'll charge you like five pound extra per wrap. No.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie: Whereas now it's more helpful.
Dr Rupy: And and so when you first started off, did you get stock or do you do you invest in getting like loads of inventory and then try and sell it out that way or like what what was the the process?
Zanna: So, we bought a lot of stock. We took a complete guess at how many of which size and which color to get, didn't we? Like, look your finger, stick it in the air, here we go. So, ordered a selection of each each style in different sizes. And then we put them all in the living room in Natalie's house.
Natalie: My house was the fulfillment center.
Zanna: We did counting, we did quality check on the living room floor. We sat on the sofa and we launched that evening on the laptop and like sat there watching the orders come through and then desperately tried to pack, print and ship from your living room floor.
Natalie: Because that's hard. I again, another thing that we were really, we thought, oh, we'll build a business, we'll do all this. And then it was like the week before we were like, we have to pack these things and send them out. And like, how are we going to do that? And how are we going to like I we were handwriting people's addresses on like the labels. And handwriting the notes. I remember Zanna sitting there handwriting the notes which went in these orders and she was like, my hand is literally going to fall off. And my whole and at this point I had a flatmate and it was like up to the ceiling worth of like stock. And I remember her like just being like, is this going to be a long-term thing? Like what what's the deal here? And then we moved because it basically took over our whole flat. And then we moved it to my parents' house and my mom and my sister were our packers and they took it to like the post office and they did everything. And then it got to a point, the business grew to a point where my sister basically sent me a message and said, I can no longer do this. Like I need a life. This needs to this needs to go. But so we managed to do it within the family, but oh my gosh, it's really difficult packing stuff. It was really stressful as well. because it's so much pressure because you're packing it and then you're thinking, wait a minute, did I write the right address on that? Oh, I don't know. Like if I send that out wrong and it was just, oh, and it was just like hours and hours each day of just packing orders. So that's the bit which you just kind of don't really realize.
Zanna: But now we have a nice fulfillment center.
Natalie: Yes, we do. We have we have other people who who do that. And I'm so, so grateful because I'm like, it's such a hard part of the business.
Dr Rupy: So so I'm guessing the response was was good. Like did you you sell all your inventory or?
Natalie: Yeah, we sold out in a few weeks, I think. And it was a complete guess work. And I feel so lucky that people, because obviously we were a new business and I think that takes a lot of trust from customers to go, I'm going to invest in this new business. These two girls have no idea what they're doing and they've talked openly about that. So this product could be a pile of rubbish, you know? But actually they they trusted us, thank goodness. And yeah, sales were really good. And it was and that was interesting because then we were able to go, oh, that was interesting because these sizes sold the most or this color sold more than the other one. And then from there, it was almost like our first, I would say our first year was like a testing year. Just audience feedback, getting like understanding what our audience wanted, what their feedback was to the styles, being able to improve on fit, being able to improve on shape.
Zanna: And definitely like with sizing and inventory, that was a huge learning curve, realizing our audience, what sizes do they typically order, how many of each size do we need to be making and just because in the beginning, as I said, you're you're just guessing how many of of size 10, how many of size 18 do I order? Whereas now we kind of know our audience, we know the sort of women that buy our swimwear and we know how many to order of each size, etc. So, but that was all a massive learning curve and a learning curve that we we did in public. We did it like on social media. We documented the whole journey and it definitely felt, I think it felt nerve-wracking to to launch this business when we were so new to it and to have this platform where if people didn't like their pieces, they could share it online, they could tag us, other people could see it. It definitely, yeah, it was a scary time.
Natalie: It was a lot of pressure. We were like nervous wrecks. The week of launch, I don't think I slept a wink. I think I was I was so nervous. And we were just like sat on the sofa about to press live like, should we do it? Oh, counting down like literally nervous wrecks. And we were probably so excited up to the launch and then by the end of the week, we're just like bags, like packing all these orders like, what have we done?
Dr Rupy: Wow. Wow. And and since then, so you had a successful first launch and and and then, you know, how how did you iterate? I mean, you're talking about the audience feedback and and and, you know, a little bit more considered when it comes to sizing. But how have you elevated the brand there thereafter with the designs and everything else?
Zanna: I'd say moving factory was a key thing, which we should probably mentioned here, because when we moved factory to one that was more swimwear focused, well, the quality just was absolutely unrivaled. So that was definitely a huge, um, a huge change. And then also, as Nat said, our first designs were very simple. They were block colors, simple, clean shapes. And we had to try and decide how are we going to stand out. And we realized that paneling was something that we wanted to bring into the brand and have that as kind of a defining feature of the brand. Um, so I think that was something which when we brought it in, sort of completely changed everything. And people loved it, having these flattering sort of double lined, strong, flat, um, I'm going to say flattering again, but they are very flattering. I did design them. Flattering double paneled bikinis and swimsuits that that really do the job and are functional. I think, yeah, the paneling was the game changer.
Natalie: To add to that, I think when we launched, we launched, we launched really quickly. Like we came, we kind of came together, had the idea, it almost snowballed. We launched and then we were able to sit back and go, okay, right, we've launched stuff. We know people want to buy it. Where do we want our business to go? And I think actually one thing that really changed kind of the way we looked at things is Selfridges contacted us before we'd launched and said, like we
Dr Rupy: Before you launched?
Natalie: Yeah, so they contacted, they found us on Instagram and we got this email, which I thought was a hoax. I literally remember messaging Zanna being like, read like read the email in the inbox. Like I don't think it's a legit email, but Selfridges want a meeting. So they basically run a program called Bright New Things, which is um supporting sustainable young designers. And they were like, we'd love to have a conversation. We were like, we haven't got any products yet. Are they sure? So we went in and it was all confirmed before we even launched that we were going to be the Selfridges Bright New Things swimwear brand, which is amazing. And then we went around Selfridges shop floor and I just remember being like, how are we going to stand out? We've got two really simple designs. How are we going to become like you that you recognize our pieces? And I think although we would have got there, I think that added pressure of knowing that we had to stand next to some of the biggest swimwear brands you've heard of and brands which have been around for years and had such a strong identity. It almost made us go, okay, let's, we almost fast tracked us to getting to our kind of branding, like point that we are now because we thought, I think that added pressure of knowing that you're going to be on like in the biggest like one of the most biggest luxury department stores and we thought our pieces have to be so good and have to stand out. So we so we went back to the drawing board. We thought, what's the feedback? What do we want our brand to be? And that's when we started coming up with ideas for like the paneling that we added, the zip, we wanted to be, we always knew we wanted to be sports luxe, but I think that kind of got us to that point. So probably having that added pressure. And it was a really short turnaround as well. They were like, right, it's a bright new things and we want to launch, uh, in this month. We were like, that's like six months away and we haven't got designs. And like with your new collection and we were just like, oh my gosh. So that was a bit of a like scrabble it all together, but actually we were able to, I think it really made us push ourselves further than we ever would have. We probably would have been a slightly slower pace. But then we were able to launch and be like, look at these pieces. Like we're so proud of those. So we launched with two and then six months later we launched with our like proper collection, like our full, I would say, yeah, it's like our first proper collection. And then that was what was in Selfridges. So it was like a, it was basically we had a fast forward button put on us to be like, right, you have a whole collection to launch. Come on. In Selfridges. Keep up. And me and Zanna were there like paddling underwater like, oh my gosh.
Dr Rupy: Were you doing that all yourselves? I mean, you both come from creative design backgrounds with the design element or did you did you have to enlist help from other people? Were you literally just doing this all off your own back?
Natalie: Yeah, we did the design, we actually came up with the designs and like colors and shapes ourselves, but then we had to enlist help to do all of the digital drawings because that's like on a whole other program which people like study to learn. So we were like, we can't we can't do this. So yeah, we luckily found someone who was really amazing, gave us like really good advice and and had a background in swimwear. Um, so we came up with the designs. We're like, this is what we want them to look and he was able to translate that into a digital drawing and actually bring it to life, which was really great. Because yeah, because I don't know, I think that that's like a year's worth of like learning how to use that software.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, which we just didn't have time to do.
Natalie: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: It's nice that you, you know, you you recognize where you you have not weaknesses, but you know, you have elements of your the entire package that need a bit of help and you can sort of almost like jigsaw it together. I wanted to ask about um British Vogue and uh the um British uh Fashion Week as well and and how those kind of came about because there've been a number of steps on your journey that I know about like, you know, the feature by Instagram as, you know, female entrepreneurs, etc. Um, how how did those things come about and how have they affected you?
Zanna: I mean, they've they've affected us in a very positive way. We've had a great time. Um, so we were contacted by the British Fashion Council about coming to London Fashion Week. And we were both shook because we were just such a new small brand and to think that we would be invited to come and take part in such a prestigious fashion event was absolutely, to be frank, mind-blowing to us. So we rocked up. We we were told that we would be given this like tiny, tiny area with like one rail and a little bit of space next to it. So it's an it's an exhibition space, right? So we're given this one rail and a tiny space. Then a few days before, they kind of upgraded us to a really big space that we would have to fill. And we didn't know how to fill this space. So we were like, what do we do? We've never been to a fashion exhibition. We now have this massive space and we have nothing to fill it with. So we we blagged that as well, didn't we now?
Natalie: Yeah, most of it was my furniture from my flat. Yeah, it was just like taking so many random bits. I remember when we turned up just looking around at everyone else's exhibition space and being like, oh my goodness, we're so amateur. Like people had like set designers because it was a it was a legit thing.
Zanna: People had things drilled into the ceiling and like hanging from the ceiling.
Natalie: They emailed us the day before being like, do you have any set designers coming? Like do you need to make any kind of actual like like builders, like physical things like going into the wall. We were like, oh, we just we just had a rail. And then it was like last minute trip to like, I think I went and got a plant from.
Zanna: We went to like a studio we used for a photo shoot and asked if we could borrow some of their furniture.
Natalie: Begged them last minute like, can we come pick up some like furniture because they had some really beautiful pieces. Managed to, to be fair, our space looked really nice. I was pretty chuffed with it. Yeah, we managed to pull together this and people were like, oh, I love your space. And we were literally like, oh my god, we literally blagged this. Like I don't know how we managed to just like stuck some things on the wall. We're like, here's our swimwear space. But that was incredible because we hadn't even been going that, I think it was less than a year maybe. And we were obviously able to meet like every press, every like, um, like basically everyone in fashion.
Zanna: Anna Wintour.
Natalie: Yeah, and then like what was really, we were the only swimwear brand there. So we were having like lots of kind of big names and obviously me and Zanna have no background in fashion. So people would be like, oh my gosh, did you know who that were? We were like, no.
Dr Rupy: I'm glad you said that because when you told me about Anna Wintour, I didn't know who that was.
Zanna: To be fair, we didn't know who it was. We googled her afterwards. Everyone knows.
Dr Rupy: I remember telling my, I think it was my sister and she was like, do you not know, how do you not know who this person is? I was like, I don't know.
Zanna: That was the one, that was the one person. I remember she walked around the corner. She comes with a crowd. Like so she literally the whole place goes silent wherever she walks. She came around the corner and there was just a wall of people taking her photo and it went silent in the room. She came around the corner. I was chatting to someone. I turned around and Zanna was there like, like trying pointing at me being like, come talk to her. So we went over and we were like chatting and she was so lovely, but we were both just a bit like starstruck, a bit like, oh my gosh, asking all about the pieces, asking
Zanna: She complimented the fabric.
Natalie: Yeah, like the paneling and the story and stuff. And then when she went, it was like this lull and we both looked at each other. Everyone was like, oh my gosh, do you know who that was? That was definitely a career highlight because that was, she only visited one brand in the whole exhibition. And I don't I don't know why she chose to come to us, but we were really obviously like absolutely mind-blown and so thankful that she did. And then since since then, I think a lot of that has we've had a bit of a snowball effect. We've been featured in a lot of Vogues. Like Vogue have been really supportive and had a lot of features there. And I remember when we launched before we launched, we were there was a few things which I was like, if we ever get into Vogue, I'm literally going to retire. Like that's it. That's my career goal done. And then we got like features and then it they just kept coming. I think we've been in nearly every Vogue.
Zanna: In the past month, I think it's been four.
Natalie: Yeah. And then it was just like, it doesn't ever get less exciting. Like we've been running this business for two years. Every feature, I'm like, I need a copy. I need to frame it. I'm bringing my mom like, Mom, I'm in Vogue. Like it's so exciting.
Zanna: I think even like a real highlight for me at London Fashion Week was when the chairman of the British Fashion Council came over and she bought some pieces because she said that she really liked them and she physically bought some and I was like, if you are the chairman of the British Fashion Council and you're saying that you like our pieces, I feel like that's a seal of approval. And it's like a pat on the back because we do we do have imposter syndrome. We do feel like why are we here? Everybody else has this background in fashion. And then when she comes up and buys a piece and says that she loves it and you're like, must be doing something right. Yeah.
Natalie: To get people within the fashion industry complimenting your designs and then them being like, where did you guys study? And we're like, well, we didn't. We kind of made it up. So that was, yeah, that was amazing because you just you just, yeah, like you say, you look at your pieces and you think, we like them, but I don't know if anyone else will, you know? And then actually to get people within the fashion industry. And that's where we found, we got in contact with, well, the Instagram team got in contact with us because they saw us at Fashion Week. And then because they had like a pop-up space in the fashion exhibition. And then I think they must have seen the pieces. We got invited along to meet the head of fashion. Um, and then it kind of we built a relationship with them and they were really supportive. And then they they remember they sent us an email just being like, I got a separate email from one of the girls being like, the most exciting email has just dropped in your inbox. Like prepare yourself. And I read it and we were just like, because they basically then they were doing a founders focus on, was it six brands around the world?
Zanna: Across the world.
Natalie: And we were the UK brand and they did like a whole feature on our story. And they were like, we're so we're going to have a team fly to shoot you. And we were just like, what is going on? So yeah, it's definitely been a lot of highlights and that that for sure was one because like they have the biggest page in the whole world. And we were just like, what is happening?
Dr Rupy: That's insane. That is insane. Yeah.
Natalie: It still can't believe it to be honest. Every time I think about it, I'm like, what? How did we? What? Like literally when we say these things, I'm just like, what has gone on the past few years? It's been a wild ride. It really has.
Dr Rupy: So, as you both know, this is a health and wellness podcast. Um, you know, what I try and do is inspire the listeners and to how they can take care of themselves, how they can eat well, but also live well. And I think your story paints this beautiful picture of how you came up with this idea, you're very naive to use your own terminology. And, you know, it it's been it appears to be success after success. In reality, stresses, you know, there's there's grind, there's financial insecurity, a whole bunch of other things. What I'm really want to nail down into is how how are you coping and how have you coped over that two-year period? It's been a very short time in, you know, as far as businesses go. But what are the what have been the biggest pain points and how have you developed a thicker skin to to get get through those?
Natalie: How long have we got? I think, well, it's definitely been an interesting journey. I think when we first started, we had no idea kind of the stresses of running a business. I had no idea the stresses of running a business. And I think because you're so emotionally invested, it's your business, it's your baby, it's your thing you're putting out into the world. Actually the emotional stress that goes with that because you just want it to succeed, you want people to like it. And I think I never, I I never realized how stressful that is. Like every part of you wants this business to do well. So when like when we launched, I I literally I literally didn't sleep. I was so nervous and you're just so scared of it not going well. And yeah, for the first year, I definitely let I let my health slip. I basically lived off coffee, didn't sleep that well and and I think a lot of business owners and that's what happens, they burn out because they don't they're not looking after themselves, they're working. And I've had so many conversations with people who run businesses and it's like you have to recognize that and then be like, actually, no, I need to look after myself. So the first year we definitely had a lot of, because it was so exciting and it was so fast-paced and you're working in this absolute whirlwind that your business becomes the number one and then you're like number two, you know? Um, and I think this second year, I've definitely been a lot more conscious to be like, make sure you're getting enough sleep. Even stuff like for the first year, I used to have all my, I used to check the emails all the time. So now I don't have any notifications on. I won't look at it from a certain time. I have my phone on airplane mode in the evenings to the mornings. There's certain things which I've just had to, it's almost like I've had an intervention with myself to be like, right, these are things you're going to put into place to make sure you're exercising because that makes you feel good. Making sure you're getting enough outside. I got a dog and obviously I've always wanted a dog, but I it's like being able to go outside and take him on a walk twice a day out in the like parks and stuff. That's really, really crucial. So I've had to definitely be quite conscious with myself and I think it's easy to fall down the rabbit hole of just like work, work, work, work, work. Um, so I'm I mean, I'm not going to lie. I sometimes I'll have weeks where the balance slightly goes and then I text Zanna like, I'm having a meltdown.
Zanna: I was going to say, there's been two things which I think we've done which has really helped the business. Number one is offloading to each other and number two is delegating. So the the the great thing about having a business partner is not just bouncing creative ideas off each other and bringing two different perspectives to the table, but also having a support system. Like Nat texted me a few days ago saying, I'm really overwhelmed with this certain thing. I don't think we're going to be able to do it in time. And I said to her, nobody's put this deadline on us except us. So nobody else knows about this deadline, so we can push it back by a few days if we want to. And it's just having each other to say to like say to me, like Zanna, do you think we can push this back? Should we do it like this? How do you feel about that? And vice versa, being able to talk to each other, I think is is key because you can get trapped up in your own head about the business and the choices and am I doing the right thing. And the second thing has definitely been delegating. Like in the beginning it was just us. And then as we've grown, we've had the capacity to be able to delegate things to more people, which I think has definitely helped because I think customer service which Nat handled for a long time, which is savage. Um, as soon as that was taken off Nat's plate, I could see a visible difference in you as a human being. So we got a customer service girl and that was like changed our lives, especially Nat's life. So it's been being able to delegate has definitely been a massive part of our business and being able to, as you said, we we know our weaknesses, we know our strengths and being able to actually put some more time into our strengths and find people to help support us on our weaknesses in the business has definitely been vital to our wellness.
Natalie: Yeah, we're so lucky to be able to do that as well.
Dr Rupy: I I find the partnership thing particularly interesting. Um, one of the um one of the traits of uh YC, Y Combinator in San Francisco, they're a tech accelerator, is that they they try and encourage people to pair up. And I and I wonder it's whether it's because, you know, you have uh co-founders who can offload to each other, who can share responsibility and then delegate and then also keep the other person in check. I I wonder if there was ever a point where perhaps not between you guys, but anyone else in your extended family or your close friends, um, that actually had to say to you, you know, you're working too hard, there's too many boxes in my house. Um, or there's, you know, you're not taking good care of yourself, you're not sleeping well, you know, this is all encompassing as businesses can be.
Zanna: I mean, my boyfriend Ant, bless him, has sat me down on multiple occasions and said, and not just about Stay Wild, about work in general and just been like, is it worth it? Because like I'll be a wreck. I'll be crying. Nat knows I love a cry. I love a cry. So I'll be having like a little meltdown, maybe crying and Ant will just say to me, is it worth it? And that question always makes me realize, yes, it is. Like, of course it is. I love this and I love Stay Wild, I love my other work. But it's, yeah, Ant often has to kind of ground me and like check in with me like this this work is for a reason. And if it's not worth it, I have to ask myself why. But so far, everything that we've done has been 100% worth the stress and toil that we've been through.
Dr Rupy: I think it's a really good question to ask yourself, you know, is it worth it? And whether you actually and being honest here, you know, whether if it wasn't worth it, you'd have the confidence to actually walk away and and say, you know what, this isn't for me. I'm not cut out to do this. I don't know. It's
Natalie: I think it's really hard. I think I was speaking to someone who ran a business and then sold their business and decided to walk away and he was like, it's the hardest thing I ever did because it's a pride thing. Like you've spent this time and he said that lots of people, you almost become your business. And I think that's an issue is like sometimes you become your business so much that there's that blurred line of your identity and your business's identity because you've you've put so much into it and then you become that business in a sense. And he was saying it's he for him and I really recognized I was like, that's really interesting and that's kind of it always makes me think, make sure that, you know, you have enough time apart from and you're not just working because he was just like, I found that I didn't have an identity without my business. Like once I lost it. So it is something that you have to really check in with yourself and ask the question, is it worth it? But then it's also asking the question, like obviously we're not planning on going anywhere, but is there anything that you could get help on? Is there anything that you could delegate? Is there any way that like, could you push that launch back a little bit and like that's not really not going to affect it, but it might help your workload. I've yeah, my boyfriend's done a lot of that being like putting me aside being like, you know, why don't you just calm it down or why don't you take a week off? I put a week off in. Nobody's it's not going to go anywhere.
Zanna: Because I because I told Nat I was taking a week off. And I'd been online like the whole of 2020 and I was like, I'm just going to have a week off. And I said, you need to have a week off. And you were like, please. So we both took a week off at the same time. It was the best week ever. But we both hadn't had that time. I hadn't had a week offline in almost two years. So it was just the most incredible, refreshing period of like that I needed. And I think being online and especially when your business is online, like my Zanna van Dijk side of stuff is online, Stay Wild swim is online, everything is online. Taking that time to step back, disconnect and just kind of live life, um, without being trapped in your phone and in your emails and everybody knowing, like there's a general consensus, I am offline this week, you will not hear from me. Um, that is the most amazing feeling and I hadn't done that in far too long. And now I'm kind of vowing to myself after that period and also watching the social dilemma. I am now saying to myself, I want to have like even just one day off a month where I'm completely offline. Ideally two. Um, just where I'm completely offline and I'm not doing anything on my phone, anything on email, anything on a laptop, just to be truly present would be amazing. So I'm hoping I could do that going going forward. I'm not saying I'm hoping. I will do that going forward.
Natalie: I'll hold you accountable. I'll check. I'll message you the night before you better not be online tomorrow. I'll be watching.
Dr Rupy: There's two things that you guys have said. One thing that really resonates with me is the notifications. So I definitely have those off and I don't check my phone for the first couple of hours um of my waking day. So I'm not just automatically immersed in, you know, whatever it is, whether it be WhatsApp or emails and that kind of stuff. Um, emails I'm addicted to. Out of everything, I've I've managed to cut down on Facebook and Instagram and all the other social media sites, but email is particularly addictive. And after watching the social dilemma, I realized, you know, there's functionality there that actually wants you to stay on email. So the notifications for email are off. And I think also having a period of time where you completely disconnect for a week at a time is amazing. It's almost like a luxury. But I wonder, you know, given the financial stresses, the stresses of being a customer service and, you know, even having a personal brand online, it's it's a slight doing customer service. You've got to reply to comments, you've got to, you know, reply to DMs and, you know, ignore trolls and all that kind of stuff. How do you deal with the day-to-day? What are your stress um coping mechanisms on a day-to-day given that you're running so many different things and a business that is growing?
Zanna: Exercise. For me, like fitness, many years ago, fitness was like a, it was a it was a job and it was a bit of an obsession. I think often when you first get into fitness, you kind of just get hooked. Um, whereas for me, fitness now is a release and I sometimes because of my schedule have to do it first thing in the morning, but my favorite thing is doing it like finding time in the afternoon or the evening to kind of relieve the stress of the day. Like that just feels amazing because I've usually built up quite a lot by about 4:00, 5:00 p.m. And if I can then go and train and I can't check my phone because usually my phone is some part of the workout, whether it's a timer or I'm playing some sort of fitness app. So doing exercise for 40 minutes, time for me, time with no distractions, time where you sweat and you push your body and you're doing something which is completely unrelated to work. I love and love it. And I desperately try and do it every day, but not necessarily intense every day, even just like a 20-minute walk or something where I'm moving my body and I'm not attached to technology. That's the dream.
Natalie: I would say the same, definitely some kind of movement. Um, but one thing that's actually really changed the game for me and I was on a panel and this girl said, I put my phone on airplane mode in the evenings and I don't take it off until an hour after I've woken up. And I was like, oh, that's a really good idea. And I've started doing that and it's probably been maybe the last year and honestly, it just changes my mornings, like being able to wake up and not have any notifications, not check my phone. Like some days if like, I don't know, if we've got a launch, I'll look at it, but I just notice the difference of that like as soon as you wake up before just being bombarded with millions of things and then immediately being like, oh my gosh, I've got to do this, I've got to do this, add this to my to-do list. Actually having that slightly more peaceful start to the day, it just helps so much and it makes you realize you don't need, you don't need to check your phone straight away. Actually having that moment of peace and being able to, like I just make a cup of tea and I put some skincare on and I like ease myself into the day and I think that really helps. Having a dog helps. Like that helps just like because you're just going to go and cuddle them and you're not going to be checking your emails when you're cuddling your dog, right? So yeah, movement, dog.
Zanna: I'm going to throw in there notifications for me as well. Because I remember, so I was talking to Dr. Chatterjee a couple of years ago and we were recording a podcast with him, my own podcast. And he in the podcast had said about notifications. And I came out of the studio and I took my airplane mode off my phone and it just went, the whole phone just went off. And I literally felt cortisol rush through my veins. And I was like, this is the turning point. The notifications are off. And it it started off with just having email off and just having WhatsApp off and now it's like everything is off. The only thing that's on is phone calls. If you want me and it's urgent enough, you will call me. And the other thing is I was quite poorly last year and I definitely realized when I was poorly that like the world can wait. So it's even just little things. It might get to 8:00 p.m. and I'll look at my inbox and I've I finished my emails at 6:30, but still 10 more have come back and I'm like, why are you emailing me at this time? And it's so easy for me to get sucked back in just to try and tick them off before the end of the night. And then I check in with myself and I'm like, the world can wait. Like they they shouldn't be expecting a reply from me at 8:30 at night. And if they are, I'm sorry, I'm not going to give that to you. So I think it's just kind of knowing that the the pressure that I put on myself to do everything so fast and immediately and tick off everything on my to-do list today is only the pressure that I put on myself. And I try and like even when I look at my to-do list for the day, I try and categorize it into what has to be done today and what I'd like to do today. Because if my list is so long and I'm telling myself I have to do everything on that list, then the feeling of overwhelm kind of floods through you. So I'm trying to release that expectation and allow myself to sometimes just not get every single thing done, which I would have never have done like a couple of years ago. So that's definitely a big change for me.
Dr Rupy: I I wonder if you mind if we double click on that actually, because I know obviously you had a a big event that happened to you in the middle of nowhere. Um, for for the listeners who don't know, I'm sure you you'll explain it. But I I wonder what impact that had on your thought process with specific regard to your own health and well-being, your mental well-being and and and the business as well and how that fits into it.
Zanna: Yeah, I think it was definitely a a changing point for me. So, and a turning point. So I was in the Maldives, January 2019, and my bowel twisted out of nowhere. This is a very long story, condensed very short. Um, but I ended up just having emergency surgery. They cut me open from above my belly button to just above my pubic bone. It's quite a big incision. Four-hour operation, emergency surgery, and then I spent a few months recovering. And um, it just completely shifted my mindset. Like number one, everyone around me was so compassionate and I was just like, God, humans are great. Number two, I couldn't exercise properly for over three months. And I was somebody who had been a personal trainer, who had been like very into fitness. So I think like having that forced rest of me set kind of shifted my perception of exercise. I used to see exercise as something that I did because I was a trainer and I was into fitness. And exercise then became something which was for recovery, to get stronger, to feel good for the mental benefits of it. Like I used to be able to only really walk um for quite a while. So for me walking was my new exercise and getting outside and being in nature and yeah, exercise changed from just being burpees and sweating and lifting 100 kilo deadlifts to like just moving my body and enjoying moving my body. And I also started doing um breath work as part of my recovery. So I had to do like box breathing for five minutes every day because basically if you have abdominal surgery, correct me if I'm wrong, Rupy, um your lungs, like your capacity can reduce because of your scarring, etc. I don't know the reasons why, but your capacity of your lungs can reduce. So I was told to do breathing exercises every day. And I have kept that up every day since my surgery. So it's coming up to almost two years later and I still do five minutes of breath work every day, which I think has just been amazing for me. So, yeah, it's gone from like my whole physical approach to fitness, um, as well as like my mental and finding breath work. I used to be a meditator, but now I actually find breath work is more beneficial for me. So, yeah, it's shifted quite a few things.
Dr Rupy: We've had a couple of people on the podcast talk about the mechanisms behind why breath work can have benefits to your mental health and your physical health as well. And I'm a big proponent of breath work from a gut point of view, from a mental health point of view. I think there's so many benefits of it. And it almost has like this immediacy effect. So you immediately feel better straight afterwards. And if you're the kind of person that struggles to switch off like I am, um, breath work just gives you a little bit more direction in what you're doing. So, you know, breathing in for four, out for four, whatever, or whatever the the strategy is for for breath work. Um, and I can imagine, and correct me if I'm wrong, you know, that's had a beneficial effect on your relationship with your business, be it your personal brand and your startup as well.
Zanna: Yeah, I definitely think it has. And as I was saying earlier, it's releasing the expectation of I have to do everything, I have to be everything. Like with Stay Wild, Nat was incredible. Like this was a really important time in the business and I disappeared off the face of the earth for like basically the first six weeks of recovery, I was just like in a hole. Um, and Nat just took everything on her shoulders and I had to release control and just be like, you smash everything Nat, I'll just be over here in a bed. And I think that was really good for me. I I am a massive control freak, not just with Stay Wild, but with my own business, with everything that I do. So I think I just had to completely release that. And actually to bring it to 2020 with COVID, that has also been beneficial for me. Like last year I had to release control for three months. My whole life changed. All my plans that I had were canceled. And we've had something similar this year where everything has been canceled and our lives have changed for months. And I feel like I had a bit of a preparatory phase in 2019 where my life was put on the back burner. So, yeah, I'd say my approach to business now, I think that period in 2019 and my health being compromised definitely helped me. I I never wanted to go back to how crazy I was before that. And then COVID this year has also, we both say gave it gave us a little bit of a moment of pause to think about what elements of life do we want to bring back in, what elements of life when things slowed down, do we want to pick back up? Um, which I think has been refreshing and important.
Dr Rupy: How was it for you, Nat? That period of time where your co-founder disappeared off the face of the earth and you were tasked with the business and
Natalie: Well, for me, it was just important that Zanna had her time to recover and that she was going to recover and she knew that I was just going to be able to, like I didn't want her to feel any guilt. And obviously it was such a, and I never did, so thank you for that. Yeah, and it was just one of those times where it was like the actually the least important thing was the business, the most important thing was Zanna's health and her being able to recover. And for me it was there was it was just a no-brainer. I was just like, it's cool, you take your time. Like obviously we're here, I'm here for you. And I remember like going round with like donuts and like taking chocolate over. And then coming over and being like, oh, let's have some swimwear samples. And like obviously as a co-founder and that's the joys of having a co-founder is like you are also like Zanna's also my friend and she's also someone who I've known for so many years and our health and knowing that we have each other's back is that's the most important thing. And like being able to and for the business, it was just like, well, of course I'll I'll just I'll run it. You don't have to worry about it. Like we both trust each other's judgment. We both trust each other's decision making. She knew like I would be able to do it and she would be able to trust my decisions. And it was it was just like, I'm going to make a success of it and it will going to smash it. Don't worry about it. You'll come back, everything will be good. And yeah, the most important thing was Zanna being able to recover and know that she didn't have to worry about Stay Wild. Like Stay Wild was going to be fine.
Dr Rupy: It's an amazing time right now, um, because there's so much uncertainty, which you've experienced prior to lockdown and everything. Um, and I and I and it looks likely that we're going to dip into a recession. But but it seems that to mirror what happened in 2009 and in the 80s as well, it's also a time for opportunity. So there may be some people, perhaps not everyone, particularly those who have got so many responsibilities to to juggle, but uh, this could be a time where people start thinking about starting their own business and starting, you know, to take control of their future, whether it be starting something themselves or getting involved in something. And I wonder if you guys had any tips for people, um, who are thinking about starting their own, whether it be in fashion or food or education or whatever industry that they're most familiar with or passionate about.
Zanna: I'd just say just start because I think for like for so many people, you have that idea, you have that passion, you have that thing you want to do, but you're so afraid to take that first step. And for us, as soon as we took that first step, I mean, Nat had already had the PDF, but as soon as we made that Google Drive and that spreadsheet, that was when the snowball started because we just put the pen to paper. We just taken that first step. So I think stop holding yourself back, um, and just start and don't be afraid to get it wrong. Like, I think there's definitely things we've done along the way where we look back and we're like, definitely could have done that better. But at the time, that was all part of the journey and we've grown and we've learned from it. So don't be afraid to make mistakes, um, and watch your cash flow. But that is a good one. Yeah, watch your watch your cash flow.
Natalie: Um, I think one thing we got a bit of advice before we launched the business was whatever you launch at first is not going to be perfect, you know, you're never going to have the perfect business, the perfect product, the perfect idea. But if you have enough kind of passion behind what you're doing, your kind of product and your idea will catch up, you know? So for us, you can get stuck in a hole of trying to make everything, every single element of your business perfect. And and I hear you hear a lot of it of people saying, I've wanted to launch this business for three, four years, but it's not quite right and I've been working on it. And then they feel like they've almost lost the opportunity. And I think like you said, a lot of, I know a lot of people who are coming brainstorming new ideas and using this time, maybe they're on furlough, they have a bit more time and they're actually they're going, okay, I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to to launch this business. And I'm going to do it this time. But I think it's that whole don't let yourself hold your ideas back. It's not going going to be perfect. Like we put out a business which was far from perfect, but we were able to learn, adapt, listen to our audience. And I think that was such a crucial bit of advice because we wouldn't have launched for another year. And then by that point, like when we launched, we it was such the right time for us to launch a business. Like David Attenborough had just done his speech about ocean plastic. So it was like the perfect time. We saw that David Attenborough do his talk and I was like, we have to launch. Like it's not going to be ready, but actually that's fine. Like that's the the joys of a business these days is you can evolve and you can kind of learn these things and it it kind of gets better as you go. So yeah, definitely don't wait until it's perfect. Learn on the go. Google everything. I think everyone's like, how did you find this? I'm like, Google it. Like how did you find that? We Googled it. How did you do this? Google it. Like we literally built our business on just Googling how to do this. What does this word mean? How do you do this? Like I think we even probably did, how to launch a swimwear business. You know, I literally Googled that. No word of a lie. I Googled like how to launch a swimwear business checklist. I love a checklist. Thanks to Google, like we wouldn't have a business if it wasn't for just being able to Google every single thing.
Dr Rupy: That's brilliant. I want to say I resonate with that so much because I'm I'm in the midst of building something. I suppose like even the Doctor's Kitchen, um, it took me four years to actually muster the confidence to actually press launch because I had the idea back in 2011. I was going to do these videos and all this kind of stuff. Um, and even now I'm going through this process of, okay, I'm launching a a new business at the same time, this application that does your shopping and matches your um recipes to nutrition goals and delivers your shopping and everything. So even that has been like a two-year process because I've been fearful of the response and it not being 100% perfect. But I think the way you guys have described your journey is inspiring for a lot of people, hopefully listening to this as well. Um, I wonder if you could share some of your top um books, podcasts, inspirations when it comes to startup or things that perhaps have helped you along your on along your way.
Zanna: Oh, do you know Holly Tucker's podcast? Yes. Oh, what is it called? Do you know what it's called?
Natalie: Conversations of inspiration. Yeah, something like that. Is that it? Conversations of
Zanna: Yeah, so Holly Tucker is the founder of Not on the High Street and she has a podcast focused on small businesses. I mean, she does interview some larger businesses as well, but she really is a champion of small businesses and her podcast is all about highlighting them and what they've done to get where they are. And I just think she has a lovely, friendly approach to everything and also she asks nitty gritty questions. She asks questions like, how did you get funding? How did you do this? How did you do that? And you're like, that's what I want to know. So, yeah, I do really like that podcast, definitely.
Natalie: I would say, yeah, I've definitely listened to a lot of those. I think we sent like each other those podcast episodes. Listen to this. They packed it in their front room as well. Um, I think another favorite of mine, um, is how I built this by Guy Raz. Um, that is such a great podcast and there's so many episodes on there which I've listened to and I've been like, that's such a valuable valuable bit of advice or hearing this brand which you thought was, I don't know, I have visions in my head of a brand and then you'd hear them talk through the struggles of the first few years and how they made some really crucial decisions or how they built their business. And I found it really, really reassuring because you think that all these businesses, and I'm sure people look at Stay Wild and think, oh, they've had like this great journey and it looks really amazing on their Instagram and stuff like that. But actually behind the scenes, it has been really hard and really hard work. And I think that's the same for listening to both of those podcasts is you hear these brands which you just have in your head as these amazingly successful brands and they're like, it was the hardest thing. I nearly quit three times. I sent everything out from my front room. I made loads of mistakes. I did this and you're just like, okay, I'm not the only one. So yeah, both of those two are gold dust, I would say.
Zanna: And the Well to Do podcast as well.
Dr Rupy: Well to do?
Zanna: Well to do, is it Well to Do London?
Dr Rupy: Oh, yes, yeah, of course. Lauren Arms. Yeah, absolutely.
Zanna: Yeah. I think her podcast is great. She has some really good ones. I mean, it's focused on wellness, but you can apply a lot of the stuff that she's spoken about to fashion, I've found. So I've listened to a lot of her episodes.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, those are like two of my favorite podcasts. I think this is really helpful because, you know, putting a perspective on the health and wellness and how you're coping with the stresses, you know, for people regardless of whether they're starting their own business or whether they're just trying to get through life right now. I think those are super helpful. Um, so I just wanted to end with what the vision is going forward. Like if you if you even have started on that vision board or whether it's something you're still putting into construction.
Zanna: We always just say two words, world domination. That is genuinely what we always say. We're like, what there'll be a crisis. What's about it? And I'm like, don't worry, it's going to be world domination soon.
Natalie: That's how we end most of our messages. Like, don't worry, I'm going to take over the world. Yeah. I think sometimes we just have to say it to each other to like be like, it's okay. It's okay. We'll take over the world. I promise.
Zanna: We do have some like big projects coming, um, because we have realized that swimwear is a seasonal item. So we have a solution to that and we are exploring that. We're not going to say what it is just yet, but yeah, we're making a bit of a pivot and launching a new branch of the business and it's really, really, really exciting and it's completely out of our comfort zone. You know, we just don't like to be in our comfort zone, do we now? So we're going to launch something completely new. So watch this space.
Dr Rupy: Watch this space.
Zanna: Watch this space indeed.
