Dr Rupy: Today I'm having a wonderful conversation with one of my really good friends, Dr Rongan Chatterjee. Many of you will know him through his bestselling books, podcasts, TV shows, and I've had the pleasure of watching him succeed through the arc of both his career and his personal life, which we talk quite a bit about today. And you can tell when me and Rongan get together, it's hard to stop us talking because we'd only just wrapped a two and a half hour chat on his podcast right before we recorded this one, which goes on for a similar amount of time. So you might want to break this up into two parts, but I truly think you're going to find some nuggets of gold in this conversation between us. And Rongan opens up even more today than I've heard him do on other podcasts as well. Happy Mind, Happy Life, it's his new book and it's masterfully written, deceptively simple in its writing and full of tips, insights, practices that I personally use to maintain a happy state of mind, which we get into during our chat today. We talk a bit about Rongan's origin story, how he moved into a different way of practicing medicine, as well as ways in which we find and maintain happiness, daily practices that you can do to help your state of mind, morning routines that I personally do as well, and how friction actually helps relationships and I believe it's a necessary ingredient for growth. Addictions and how we fill voids with things like foods and the process of writing books for any budding authors out there. I think you're going to find this episode truly, truly impactful. Rongan's book is brilliant. You can find the links to that all in the doctorskitchen.com show notes page. And remember, you can download the Doctor's Kitchen from the doctorskitchen.com plus sign up to the newsletter, Eat, Read, Listen, where I share something for you to eat, a recipe, something to listen, it might be a podcast, it might be a series, and something to watch, it could be a lecture, it could be a commencement speech. And in fact, I'm going to be sharing one of my favourite commencement speeches on the newsletter this week. So make sure you sign up for the newsletter at the doctorskitchen.com. But for now, here is my conversation with Dr Chatterjee.
Dr Rupy: Rongan, it's so nice being in your studio.
Dr Rongan: It's quite funny actually to be sitting in the chair where I normally interview guests and you're about to interview me. It's kind of, it's going to be a novel experience for me.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. We've just come off a marathon chat for me anyway. I know you you're used to long form conversation and we're going to get into that in a bit, but certainly for me, I try and keep my conversation about 60 minutes and I think you've got a different approach to it, but like I was just saying off off the mics, I actually feel really refreshed after chatting for that long, which is I wouldn't have expected that.
Dr Rongan: Yeah, it's something I've kind of really leaned into over the past few years. I guess talking about podcasting, I started about a bit after you actually.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, same time, similar time.
Dr Rongan: In maybe four, four and a bit years now. And you sort of do things the way you think you're meant to do them, or this is the way podcasts run. I remember being told when I started that in the UK, you keep a podcast 30 to 40 minutes. That's the length of the average commute. And so I did, you were episode four on my show and I looked this morning, it was like 40 minutes. I thought, what on earth did I cover in 40 minutes? And I've realised that there was a lot left unsaid for me. And so I've lent into that. As I've got longer and longer with my conversations, the show's got more and more popular. And it's not about that though. It's what I get out of it. We've spoken maybe almost two and a half hours. We've spoken together on my show. I started off today quite tired and I felt totally nourished and elevated because it fed a really important part of me. My authentic self loves that. And for me, it's really getting into that mindset of why am I doing this podcast? Yes, it's to help people for sure. But you know what a grind it is to put out conversations every single week, week after week, month after month, year after year. It's not easy. So the only way you're really going to keep doing it and not have it drain you and take from you is when it's something that nourishes you. And I found a format of conversation that really nourishes me and it just so happens that loads of people also like listening. But really, I guess for me, I just enjoy having the conversations.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I can tell why now you love it so much because that conversation that we just had has really lifted me. I was telling you earlier that I'm not looking at my wearable ring because I didn't sleep very well last night and I was kind of, I was a little bit nervous actually coming here because I wanted to make sure that I was animated enough. I was obviously very excited to see you, but actually that kind of just went to the side when we started chatting because those long conversations, I mean, obviously we've known each other for a few years now, but those long conversations honestly were super energising. That was really enjoyable for me and I feel great.
Dr Rongan: I've realised this over the last few years, you know, I've really been on a massive journey inwards to try and figure out who I am and why I do what I do and where does my drive and motivation come from. And my podcast has very much helped me grow emotionally as a person, not just because of the conversations I've had on the show, but also because I've really worked hard. It's kind of I want to say worked hard at this. I've worked hard on being me on the show. I've worked really hard at trying to be the same person on the mic that I am off the mic. So instead of coming on the mic and suddenly starting to talk like this because I'm a doctor and I'm talking about information. No, can I maintain the same tone? And it's kind of weird, like I feel sometimes the longest journey we ever take is that journey back to being ourselves. And I think the reason why these long conversations nourish me so much is because it's not only me. The second half is always better than the first half, always, because the performance element, whether it's from me or let's say it's my guest who's talking about their new book and they've got some ideas in their head that they want to talk about. After a while, it kind of just drops into the slot where we've almost forgotten there's a mic there.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I definitely want to talk about your book, but I think I'd love to re, I know a lot of people know of you, but I'd really want to reintroduce you to the audience in terms of the arc of your career as well. I think most people know you as the doctor from BBC's Doctor in the House, obviously the bestselling books and stuff, but take us on a journey of how your career has has changed, the arc of your career and where you're at now. I know it's a long question, but I think maybe that would lend itself to a nice conversation around the subject of your next book, which has been already very impactful for me and the kind of questions that we had on your pod as well.
Dr Rongan: Well, look, as we record this, I've very close to being a practicing medical doctor for 21 years, right? So tens of thousands of patients I've seen during that time. How to summarise this journey? I started off leaving medical school believing that I had learned the tools that I need to help my patients get better. I started off in hospital medicine and I saw some of the best things that modern medicine has to offer, you know, for acute care, what we can do when patients are sick. And I went down the route of training to be a specialist. I was going to specialise in kidney medicine. Something didn't feel right for me. Like I just felt that I don't want to spend my whole career just seeing one element of the body. I don't know, that's not a fair reflection of what kidney medicine is, but to me, like very simplistically, I'm a people person. I wanted to see how everything interacted with everything else. And, you know, much to my dad's dismay, I think I took the step to despite having done my specialist exams to go, actually, you know what, I want to be a generalist. I want to move to general practice. I want to get to know people, build up relationships, see how all these symptoms fit in together. And so I moved to general practice, did my exams, started working. And if I look back now, there was always a slight discontent, even when I was in hospitals, if I'm honest. You know, it may not have been obvious to myself, but I've always felt in medicine that a lot of the time we suppress symptoms, we put sticking plasters on things and don't really get to the root cause of what is affecting a patient. And I remember one day early on in my general practice career, been a tough day, you know, maybe seen 40, 50 patients, you know what it's like. And I at the end of the day, I reflected back, looked at my list and I thought, Rongan, how many patients have you really helped today? Honestly, how many of you really helped? And honestly felt Rupy that I'd helped about 20%. I thought the other 80%, I've done something, I've referred them somewhere, I've sent them off for a test, I've given them a medication, but I knew that I was just putting sticking plasters on their symptoms and I sort of knew they'd be back, that I didn't really know what was going on and they didn't have an understanding of what was going on. And I just thought, I can't do this for the next 40 years. This is not what I thought being a doctor was. So that was a big moment for me. I think I've spoken about this before on your podcast when my son had a convulsion when he was six months old and nearly died from a preventable vitamin deficiency. That was a huge moment for me that changed everything and the way I view the world, the way I view medicine. Those things really led me on this journey to go and understand, well, what is the root cause of my patient's problems? And, you know, we're now in a situation where I will confidently say that 80 to 90% of what I see as a doctor, what most doctors around the world see, is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. Not entirely, but in some way. And again, I always want to be really clear on this. I'm not putting blame on people. I do understand that life is tough. I understand that the way the modern world is set up, it makes it very difficult for us to make the food choices we want to make, to move as much as we want to move. You know, there's infinite distractions to keep us up at night now instead of going to bed. There is all kinds of things that we could be doing, which frankly, a thousand years ago didn't exist. So get dark, we're going to go to bed. Right? Chronic stress is endemic and arguably getting worse for many, many people. But the truth is that I've discovered in my own journey is that these are the root drivers of the symptoms that we're seeing. And actually, when you can make small changes to what I call these four key areas, food, movement, sleep, and relaxation, you can have a huge impact. Yes, on how you feel today, but also on your risk of getting sick in the future. And so my whole view on medicine is, how can I help a patient get to the root cause of their problems and empower them so they can feel like they're the architects of their own health and happiness. And I guess that point there about happiness for me is something that I've thought a lot about recently because I want to, like you, empower people to believe that they have agency over their lives, that they can make different choices that will make a difference. And, you know, you mentioned Doctor in the House, you know, yes, I know many people know me from that BBC One series in 2015 and 2017 when I, you know, one of the most life-changing things I've ever done. On a, yes, the families had their lives changed, but just personally, as a human being, as a doctor, to literally go into families' lives, families who are struggling with multiple health problems. Most of them had been under specialists and GPs in the past, most of them were on medications and they're still struggling. And by living alongside them for four to six weeks, I was able to help pretty much every family either completely get better or significantly improve their symptoms. I didn't use a single pharmaceutical. It was all done through diet and lifestyle. I was really, really proud of that because I think at that time, I don't think anything like that had ever been done on mainstream television, potentially anywhere in the world to show that type two diabetes could be put into remission. In 30 days, I did, I helped that family do in the first series. Someone with panic attacks and really bad anxiety, 70% improvement in six weeks by changes to diet and lifestyle. Someone with fibromyalgia who was on 20 pills a day when I saw her, right, 20 pills a day and she's still in pain. She had fibromyalgia, depression, IBS, she had six or seven different diagnoses. Within six weeks, she's completely pain-free. And two years later, this is what I'm really proud of, with no further input from me, she's on zero pills a day, right? So 20 pills a day to zero pills a day, all through empowerment. So my journey through seeing the power of the media and how you can help spread that information. Yes, these days I do that through my books and my podcast. But that point about happiness, it's been something that has literally been tugging away at me in my mind for a few years. Is lifestyle the most upstream factor? Food, movement, sleep, and relaxation. For many years, I've thought it is, and it's certainly a significant upstream factor, but I thought, is there anything even more root cause than our lifestyle? And I think there is. I think the research supports it, I think my clinical experience supports it, and that upstream factor actually is our happiness and our mental wellbeing. So many of the behaviours that we in inverted commas choose to do, like we talk about lifestyle choice. But actually, what I've realised, and I even can reflect on my own life, that all behaviours serve a role. We're engaging in that behaviour for a reason. And a lot of the time, we are engaging in behaviours to compensate or to alleviate how we feel. You know, the research shows us that people who are happier are healthier. And so to really make it clear for people, there's two broad reasons why that is. If you are happier, so more content and at peace with your life, you naturally make better lifestyle decisions. You're less likely to comfort eat, you're less likely to dive into the Ben and Jerry's that evening to deal with the stress of your day. You're less likely to need a whole bottle of wine to unwind. A lot of the time as doctors, we're trying to, I feel, help change a downstream symptom. Let's say drinking alcohol, right? We give these, I think, rather dry recommendations that this is how many units you should drink a week. You know, keep it under that, otherwise you're at risk of heart disease and cirrhosis. Look, I understand there has to be a guidance, but I think the reason, certainly for me, why a lot of public health guidance doesn't work is we don't learn and change our behaviour through logic. We need a connection, right? There's no emotional, there's no exciting storytelling there that connects with people. It's like, oh yeah, whatever, 14 units or 20, you know, whatever it might be. I don't think it lands. And even if we think about people, why does dry January work? Well, it kind of works for a few weeks for a few people because all that motivation in January, oh, you know, I'm going to do it, I'm going to quit booze. Great. Three or four weeks later, most people are back to sort of where they were before. Not everyone, but a lot of people, because the existing driver for that behaviour, I.e. I don't like my job, or there's too much stress in my life, so alcohol is my way of unwinding. Great. White knuckle it for a few weeks, but if you don't address the underlying cause, you're never going to change that behaviour. So for me, the reason why I think happiness and health is so strongly linked is because reason number one, happier people naturally make better lifestyle choices. But it ain't just that, mate. Right? There's other research now which is showing that irrespective, even when you account for the same lifestyle, happier people are healthier. Right? There was a study with nuns. I love this study. They they tracked these nuns over the course of their life. And all the nuns had the same lifestyle, right? Same diet, same movement, same sleep patterns, right? It's all the same. But what they found when they looked at this is that the happier nuns were significantly healthier and they lived longer. Right? Lifestyle is the same, but happiness is correlated with better health outcomes. And then, you know, there's so many other studies like to to to make it more, I guess, lab-based. You know, there have been some studies where they've shown that you can put two groups of people in a laboratory and expose them to rhinovirus. So the virus that causes the common cold. And actually, how happy they are determines by a factor of three who's going to get sick. So basically, the people who felt not so positive in their life, they got sick three times more often than those who felt positive and content. Right? So that is the same virus you're getting exposed to, but whether you actually get sick or not, we can determine by your emotional state. And so I look at that and I reflect on my own career, and I also reflect on Doctor in the House. I don't think I've said this before, but if I think about my two years when I was spending a lot of my time filming Doctor in the House, what I got to see, mate, is something that most doctors will never see. Because, you know, we've spoken before about how 10-minute consultations really are not that fit for purpose anymore. But let's even go one step further. Let's say instead of 10 minutes, you have half an hour. Sure, you can go through more stuff, right? You can ask the patient more about their lifestyle. But you're still not going to get the full window that I got when I stayed with those families because I would see stuff that would never come up in a consultation room. Even if I said, you know, what's your diet like? I would see stuff. I would see how the way people interacted with each other, the toxic relationships, the stress, how that would impact people's eating behaviour, how that would impact, you know, the way that they slept. I don't think I even realised at the time that I was literally getting this insight into what is really going on behind people's, what's really driving people's health. Does that make sense?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And what I wanted to come back to actually, as you were talking there, is somebody listening to this who might be a doctor themselves or someone in the health profession might be like, if I did a TV show where I showed in front of millions of people every single week, I could reverse all these different issues with a diet and lifestyle approach. And I'm sure, you know, there's a lot more than the simplistic description of diet and lifestyle. There's a whole bunch of other things. I would have peaked. I would have peaked at my sort of professional capacity, the ability to even do that. But what you've done thus far is you've done the book and that's elevated people's knowledge even more so about diet and lifestyle and how they can make it actionable to themselves. You've talked about stress, I think earlier than most people have talked about stress through your other books. And then also the science of habit change, something that other people have talked about, but I think you've packaged it in a lovely, beautiful way. My question is, how did you get to happiness? Was happiness something that you thought about as much as you do today that you did during the show?
Dr Rongan: No. I didn't directly think about happiness and mental wellbeing when I was filming the show. But I think one of my strengths as a doctor, you know, as a human being, I guess, is I think I've got an ability to connect with people. I've always had pretty good compliance with my patients. And I think one of the reasons is I have this phrase which when I'm teaching the prescribing lifestyle medicine course, I often talk to doctors about and I've written about it in my new book because, you know, someone I think once asked me, what's the most important thing you've learned in your 20 years of practice? I said, honestly, these four words, connect first, educate second. And for me, I'll circle back to your question in just a moment. Why that's so important for me and part of the answer to your question is it's even what I do on my podcast, I hope, is for me it's all about a connection. When my patient is sitting there in front of me, my main aim initially is how can I connect with them? How can I show them that I understand, that I care, that I'm here to help them and support them? I find a lot of the time, if we're not doing that, and I understand that the system makes it very hard to do this. But if you don't spend the time to connect, no one cares what comes next or the education you might give to them, it's very short-lived. But if they know you care, then they're suddenly all ears. Right, okay, now what have you got to say? And let's take it outside the doctor-patient relationship for a minute because what is the doctor-patient relationship? It's a relationship. Right? Think about it with your fiance or me with my wife or your friends. You know, do they really want to listen until they know how much you care? No, it's this is the basic of any relationship. The doctor-patient relationship is no different. So going back to Doctor in the House, what I did and I had to, and yeah, look, I felt huge pressure. I'd never been on TV. I didn't have a social media account, I don't think. Like I'm like suddenly to get my own show on BBC One, my own primetime series. As one of my best mates, Luke from uni said to me, the week before it came out, he's like, mate, you know next week you're going to have four or five million people watching you do your job. I was like, mate, I'm glad you didn't tell me that six months ago when I started filming this thing because effectively it's like I put a huge amount of pressure on myself because I know, I knew, I had this real deep drive like you do, mate, that empowering ourselves to make small changes to our lifestyle does make a big difference. And I knew I could help these patients get better. But it was really hard. You know, the truth is, you know, filming Doctor in the House, particularly the second series, put a huge strain on my marriage. No question. Six months of filming. Like I was away, I was trying to get super sick people better with TV cameras on. Right? And I was being pulled by the production company to do certain things. I remember with the lady with fibromyalgia, they said to me, we've got an appointment with one of the top consultants in pain management in London, we'll help sort out her pain. I said, guys, I don't want to help manage her pain better. I want to get her out of pain. So what do you mean? I said, well, look, I don't know, but I only did the show on the condition that I get full medical autonomy. So I ain't going to that appointment. That's not what I'm recommending for my patient. Give me a month and then let's reassess. But I put a huge amount of pressure on myself. So even when I was back home, I was physically home, I wasn't mentally here. I was thinking about these patients, why? Because it was hard. It was really, really challenging. Was I thinking about happiness and mental wellbeing then? No, right? I was connecting with them. But I don't think I realised looking back that I was assessing their mental wellbeing. And actually now, as I reflect, the state of their lives, how they felt about themselves and the world around them, absolutely impacted their lifestyle choices, choices in inverted commas, because a lot of the time these are consequences of how we feel. So no, I wasn't, but for me, this new book is my passion project for sure. Like I'm proud of my previous four, like really proud. But I think what makes this one different is that there's a huge personal narrative as well, which wasn't in my first four. The first four were very much me as the expert, you know, me with my experience explaining, you know, what what what you can do to help yourself, um, you know, lots of case studies. This is how what I'm recommending, this is how it helped this patient and this patient and this patient. This book, I think, was a creative risk for me going into a brand new area. Um, it was me being very vulnerable. I've shared stuff about myself. Five years ago, no way. Like I've shared the stuff that I've struggled with, insecurities I've had, perceived struggles. And so I feel, I feel this book is an evolution of my view. It's still consistent with all my previous work. But I think it's getting more and more to the nub of what really drives ill health. It's not that lifestyle doesn't, I think it does, but lifestyle, as I say, is often a consequence of how we feel. You know, I don't make, um, I give you an example. I don't make New Year's resolutions anymore.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Rongan: I used to. I used to be very perfectionist. Right, okay, you didn't manage it last year. This year, right, that's it. January 1st, you're going to do this 10 or 15 minutes of meditation. You know, you do it for seven days, 10 days, and you miss a day. Oh, you know, you'd beat yourself up internally that I missed that 11th day. There was there was this kind of pursuit of perfection, which came from a deep insecurity about who I am and and what drives me. And the truth is, since dad died nine years ago, and particularly over the last few years, I've been on a deep inner journey to understand why I am a certain way, why I behave or get triggered in certain situations. And by going there, going to the root cause and changing it, very simplistically, I now like the person I see in the mirror these days.
Dr Rupy: Mm.
Dr Rongan: Where for much of my life, I probably didn't. Right? So the reason I no longer need to make New Year's resolutions is because my drive now no longer comes from a place of lack, it comes from a place of love. Like I'm enough in who I am. So therefore, oh, if I meditate for 10 days and then I miss a day, oh, I missed a day. Cool. I'm human. Okay, I feel better when I do meditate. Tomorrow I'm going to meditate again. Like that happens now. So I've actually been more consistent with my lifestyle choices and behaviours since I have self-compassion for myself. And I think that is a huge struggle. And I think about this a lot. What's the drive behind your motivation in life? Is your drive coming from a place of lack or a place of love? Me, for much of my life, it's come from a place of lack. I felt that external validation, success would make me something, would make me feel something. That's how I was conditioned as a child.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. I I I want to touch on that external validation actually, because we were talking about that over lunch. And I feel, just to anchor the listener, you know, you started off from a position of looking at diet and lifestyle as the core upstream triggers behind lifestyle related illnesses, not all of them, but certainly a large proportion of them. And it seems now like you're you're taking it up a notch and you're really going further upstream and you're really looking at what those drivers are behind the factors of lifestyle that enable it to to be maintained for consistently. That's that's sort of what the essence I get from the book. And if you can drill down on truly being comfortable in yourself, that's how everything else just sort of just goes, just runs.
Dr Rongan: I can guarantee Rupy, there's someone listening to this podcast right now or who's watching it, right? And they love your content and they've got some of your books and they know the things that they should be doing. But they'll be thinking, you know what, man, I did, I managed for a few weeks, for a few months and then I flipped back. Why can I, why am I still struggling? Right? Why I know that stuff's good for me. I've read it in his book or my book or whatever. I can't make it stick. And that was one of the drives to write my third book, Feel Better in Five on behaviour change. Look, there were some few simple rules that if you can follow and apply, you're going to vastly increase the likelihood that you're going to stick to them. And we spoke about that last time I came on your show. But what I would observe with patients, I would see, why is it? There were a few questions that I needed answering, which is what led to me writing Happy Mind, Happy Life. It's like, well, why do some patients manage to do this for a few weeks, maybe a few months, and then they flip back? Why can't they sustain it even though they felt amazing and they know, right? What's going on there? Why are some of my patients smashing it with their lifestyle? They've changed their diet, their movement, their sleep is all really good. And they're still really struggling. A lot of the time what I would see is they were really overly influenced by the actions of other people. They were eating well, moving well, and sleeping well, but they'd allow an email from their boss to wreck their day and send them on a downward spiral. I thought, what's going on here? How can I unpick this? So personally and professionally, this was a quest for me to understand deeper. Like I don't want to just ever write a book for the sake of writing a book. For me, I want creative progression. I want there to be a reason for it. I want to challenge myself. What is, what are we missing here? You know? And I feel, like I'm a huge fan of the lifestyle medicine movement. You know, it's what I've stood for in public for like seven years now. But I think we're missing a piece. I don't think it's just lifestyle. It's like, well, why the lifestyle? What's driving it? And, you know, happiness is a funny term, I think, because when we say happiness to 10 different people, there'll be 10 different interpretations of what happiness means. Oh, happier people are healthier. Yeah, but what does that mean? You know, what do you mean by happiness? Well, I have a definition of happiness in the book that I think I've created this model that I call core happiness, C-O-R-E, core happiness, to really help people understand what I think the components of happiness are. And the key thing, the key message I want to get across with the ideas in this book is that happiness is a trainable skill. Right? It's something you can practice, develop, and get better at once you know what to work on. And I thought, which is what I try and do with all my books is I try and come up with an idea and then go, well, how can a busy person with a busy life put this into practice? Because happiness can seem like this, you know, this vague concept. It's almost like a mirage that one day I'll stumble across it when everything goes well. And I thought, no, Rongan, there's got to be another way. What is it? And so I want people to imagine core happiness as a three-legged stool. Each of the legs is separate but essential. If any one of those legs starts to weaken, your feelings of happiness will also start to weaken and ultimately collapse. So what are these three legs? Alignment, contentment, and control. Alignment, what does that mean? Well, when the person who you really are inside and the person who you are actually being out there in the world are one and the same. That's alignment. That's when your inner values and your external actions start to match up. For much of my life, I was unaligned.
Dr Rupy: Let's drill down on that actually, because I think, like you said, you've been exceptionally vulnerable in this book. You've shared some incredible stories. Like you said, you wouldn't have shared them a few years ago. But personally, like through our relationship and our friendship, you know, you've shared those stories with me and I think it's really brave of you to share it because that's going to help someone recognise, not just go along the journey with you, but recognise that this could be holding them back.
Dr Rongan: The amount of messages I've had over the last few weeks since the book came out is insane. You know, what they say, the most personal story is the most universal. Right? By me being totally honest and authentic to what I've struggled with in my life, it is amazing how many people with seemingly different lives have connected with it. So just before I answer on alignment, one of the things, one of the kind of routines with me writing a book is my wife will not look at anything until the final stages. Right. So Vid will not look at things even if I've been trying to crack an idea for a week and I say, hey, babe, please, can you just, does this make sense? Have I got this message across, do you think? And she, she's amazing and she'll always wait. She says, no, I'm going to see it when it's done. And so she comes in about a week before deadline with a fresh eye and she makes brilliant suggestions. She goes, that's repetitive, that's not clear there. Why have you said this? You know, really, really good stuff. And this year, I remember last summer when she was doing it with this book, she said something to me she's never said before. She said, hey, babe, are you sure you want some of these stories in the book? I said, what do you mean? She goes, look, do you want everyone knowing this stuff? And I think this speaks to how much personal growth I have been through in my own life. I said, yeah, I'm totally okay with it. Like, I'm not trying to portray an image of perfection. I'm an imperfect human being like all of us. And I'm totally okay with this stuff now. She was trying to protect me, you know, she loves me. She's like, are you sure you want people knowing this? And so that was really interesting to me that I feel totally comfortable. No nerves. This is the only book where I haven't been nervous before it came out because there's nothing for me to be nervous about. Like, this is the best piece of work that I can create at this stage of my life. Whether people resonate with it or not, doesn't change that. Like, and I'll tell you, alignment and external validation. Where this has been a real issue in my own life. And I'd be interested if what your experience is here because obviously we're both the kids of Indian immigrant parents. So when I was a little boy, I remember Rupy coming back from school and if I had 19 out of 20 in a test, my mum and dad would be like, well, what did you get wrong? Why didn't you get 20? If I got 99% in an exam, oh, what, you know, why didn't you get 100? What, come on, which one was it? If I came second in class, well, who came top? Why didn't you come top? Now, what's really interesting, and maybe we'll talk about perspective later because perspective is a key skill to develop for happiness. Mum and dad did this from a place of love. Right? Mum and dad come to the country, they don't know anyone, they've got no money, they face discrimination, they face glass ceilings in certain careers where they can't progress. You know, my dad ended up changing specialty because he just knew he would never be promoted in his specialty despite him training everyone beneath him and them jumping him. Right? So they don't want their kids to face what they went through. So in mum and dad's head, like in many Indian families, and I'm sure in other non-Indian families as well, it's very much, well, they prioritise academic excellence because if I get straight A's, then I can get go to a good university and get a good job. I can earn decent money and life will be great. Right? So that's their perspective. Little Rongan on the other hand develops this idea when he's little that I'm only loved, I'm only good enough when I'm top dog, when I've got full marks. I didn't know I was doing that at the time, but that was my, that was the strategy I used. So that then drives you and you start to define yourself and your self-worth on external validation, on getting straight A's, on being top of the class, on getting the good job. And on the outside, things can look great. Oh, you know, you've got a good job, you're a doctor, you went to Edinburgh Medical School, you know, you've, you know, all this sort of stuff, it looks good. But I've realised, mate, for much of my life, I'd say maybe until five years ago, I wasn't really happy. I wasn't content. I thought that doing that will make me happy. And I think this is a mistake that many people make. They confuse success with happiness.
Dr Rupy: Yes. Yeah.
Dr Rongan: They can overlap, but they don't always. For much of my life, they didn't. I've got, you know, on the from the outside, Rupy, I, like you, we've ticked off the boxes of success as defined by society. I've got a, I'm a doctor. You know, I've now got five Sunday Times bestsellers, right? I've got a podcast listened to by millions of people a week. Um, I'm happily married and got kids. All these things, they look great. But until a few years ago, I wasn't truly happy. I am these days. Like, I've never felt this good. Like, my inner wellbeing and contentedness is now down to me. It's not dependent on other people being a certain way. And so I've been on a journey to try and understand where that all comes from. And funny enough, as I was writing this book, I because I I live really nearby to mum and with my brother help look after her. I remember I went round to mum's and I said, hey mum, can I ask you a question? When I was a kid, why did you say all that stuff to me? And she said, well, I just knew how capable you are. I just wanted you to be the best that you could be. We didn't say the same thing to your brother. He's got different capabilities to you. And again, it really teach you about perspective. Like, I love my parents. I'd like to think they brought me up really well. But one situation has at least two, if not many, many different perspectives. And going back to behaviour, right? I, for much of my life, my mates would say I have an addictive personality and I'm really competitive. I was. But I'm not anymore, mate. And this is this idea that we have about personality. I've I've understood that personality, what we consider ourselves to be us, often is a defensive structure that we put into place when we were a child to help get us through, but it doesn't mean it's fixed. So why am I no longer competitive? Why am I, why do I no longer have this addictive personality? Well, what did I used to do in my 20s? I used to love gambling. Love gambling. Right? At uni, I'd gamble on anything, snooker, pool, horses, footy, with your mates, head down the casino. Never to the point where you would say Rongan's addicted to gambling. But looking back now, I think I had a slightly unhealthy relationship with it. I probably did it a little bit too much. Right? Again, would I have admitted that a few years ago? No way. But everyone's got addictive tendencies, right? For somebody else, it's going to be booze, for somebody else, it's going to be sugar, for somebody else, it's going to be three hours on Instagram. Actually, they're not as different as they might appear. The underlying cause is often the same. So for me, I mentioned core happiness, right? And we're, we mentioned the three legs. The opposite of core happiness is what I call junk happiness. I write about these junk happiness habits in the book. And junk happiness is often what we think happiness is. These are these, and we've all got a junk happiness habit of choice, I would say, at least one. What do we go to to avoid feeling how we're feeling or to distract ourselves? And again, it could be anything, sugar, booze, drugs, alcohol, online scrolling, online pornography, which is a huge problem these days. Whatever it is, it's often, it's what I call a junk happiness habit. And again, I'm not criticising them. I'm not saying they're always bad necessarily. The problem is is if we engage in them too often, or if we make the mistake that they're actually bringing us true contentment, because they're not. So as I've learned to heal that part of myself through all the things that I've outlined in the book, there's lots of practical steps, really understanding for me the difference between success and happiness. I'm not competitive anymore. I've not gambled in over 10 years, not because I've tried to stop. I've no need for it. What it served in my life before has gone.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Rongan: And this is, and really, when we talk a lot about behaviour change, we're trying to help our patients and the wider public make changes to their lifestyle. Why I'm so passionate about this book and why I truly believe it's the most important book that I've written to date is because I think it goes deeper and more upstream as to you are engaging in these behaviours for a reason. Right? Sure. Try and make some changes. Use the principles of behaviour change and habit change. Great. And ironically, that's going to help you be in a better mental state to actually figure this stuff out. Because I, why am I no longer competitive? Because why would competitive, why would being competitive help me in the past? Well, if I define my self-worth based upon being top, well, being competitive is a great personality to have because it pushes you. But then you realise that you're deeply unhappy and I don't need that anymore. So I'm no longer competitive because my inner wellbeing is no longer up to other people. It's kind of all down to me.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And you know what, this brings me on to a really important point, I think, about friction in the digital world. And I think the pandemic has really revealed how judgmental we can be, not only towards ourselves, but also to other people that can conjure up that negative energy that can be manifesting in lots of different ways. And you've got this beautiful exercise of, I think it's called the hero story, where you basically generate a more positive outlook by creating a story around something that you might initially be triggered by.
Dr Rongan: For me, it comes down to that word which we mentioned earlier on in this conversation, perspective. A huge part of happiness comes down to choosing the happiness perspective or what I call choosing the happiness story. And you can train yourself to do that in pretty much every situation. And this is what chapter five in the book's about. It's my favourite chapter because it's the one that has had the most impact on me and it's what I practice every day. And it's this idea that any situation has multiple perspectives and the perspective you take on it will determine so much about how you feel and about the rest of your day. So if if that email from your boss really bothers you and you think, well, what's about, you know, he shouldn't have sent me that that email like that. Does my boss, the email comes in at 3 p.m. You're already a bit tired from the day, you're looking to go home or signing off. The email comes in and you start this narrative, I'm not talking about you. I know you're not in your head here and smiling, but I'm just this is a fictional a fictional narrative that I think many people can resonate with that, I can't believe they sent an email like that. Did they not know that I worked last weekend? I've been doing this job for five years. How dare they talk to me like that? Whatever, whatever story you want to create, those bits of self-talk are disempowering. And the consequence of that disempowering self-talk is that you feel you're a victim, that your inner wellbeing is down to how they've behaved. And then you will need to do something with those emotions. They don't just dissipate. You'll have to go for a walk, you'll have to have a beer after work, you'll have to have a heated discussion with your partner. You'll have to dive into the Ben and Jerry's. You'll do something that emotional energy doesn't just neutralize, you have to do something with it. And I think that's what we don't understand. But in that same situation, you can choose a different perspective. You can go, oh, well, I wonder why my boss sent me that email. Maybe he or she is under pressure from his or her boss. Maybe, um, you know, maybe his daughter had earache last night and was up and he's knackered and he's taking it out on me. Um, it doesn't matter. Literally, you can create any narrative you want. Maybe he's feeling under pressure with his job. Right? And you can train yourself to choose a different perspective. And when you do, you will feel different. And it's not only about you feeling different, you'll also be able to go and address that situation in a much better way. If you're feeling triggered and emotionally volatile, you're never going to have a productive conversation. But if you feel really good about it and you feel calm about it, you can then say the day after, hey, listen, I wonder if we could have a meeting because there's a couple of things I'd love to discuss with you. Like that applies in relationships as well with partners. That stuff really works. And you know, I have trained myself to do this. The phrase which really helps me is if I was that other person, I'd be behaving in exactly the same way as them. Now, no one has to live their life by that phrase. But I invite people to consider if you practice that every time you find yourself on a bit of social friction in your life, that the action of someone else is bothering you, just see what happens. I remember in March or April 2020, because I've been practicing this for a few years now, I remember, do you remember when, you know, the first lockdowns are starting and the news is showing empty supermarket shelves. There's no toilet roll there.
Dr Rupy: I remember that well. Yeah.
Dr Rongan: Right? So the prevailing, the the the sort of normal narrative is, I can't believe who are these people who are taking all the toilet roll? How selfish? Right? People might be listening and thinking, yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I'm not having a go at you, right? I'm not talking down to anyone. Everyone's entitled to react the way they want to. What I'm trying to offer is a slightly different perspective. Right? So in that moment, I remember it and I thought, okay, well, what's, let's think about this. What's really going on here? Well, maybe one person, maybe every shopper that day has taken one extra roll. And therefore, by the end of the day, actually, when the when the cameras are on, there's no, there's nothing left. Okay, that could happen. That's that's realistic. Okay, maybe, um, someone bought 20 big eight packs, right? Maybe they've got ulcerative colitis and they need to go to the toilet 20 times a day and they are literally petrified of the personal, professional, social problems that they're going to face if there's no toilet roll in their house. Okay, that could be real. Maybe some person is caring for their four elderly grandparents and they all need help and they're trying to take a big load. Okay, you can train yourself to choose any one of these perspectives. Well, let's go one step further. Let's say someone bought 38 packs and they want to sell it on eBay for a profit. How does this apply then? Oh, well, what sort of life might that person have where they feel that actually this is a nice thing to do? Maybe they're skint. There's no opportunity and this is the first thing in years that they thought, well, I can make a bit of money here. Maybe if I was that person, I'd think the same way as them. Now, here's the thing, you don't have to do this, but I promise you when you start practicing this, you feel better. You don't need to dissipate any emotional tension later. You feel happier, right? And that, as I demonstrate in the book, I go through the research like that will have an impact on your physical health. And that's exactly what I did in that moment. I was like, you know, the other thing I've realised about judgment, because I probably used to be judgmental when I felt insecure in who I was. Now that I don't have that issue anywhere near in the way that I used to, like I really don't judge people. I don't feel who on earth am I to judge another human being for what they're doing? It's not my place to. And judgment, mate, the way I think about it is often I feel we judge someone else to put them down so we can artificially elevate ourselves so we feel good in that moment. But that feeling good is short-lived. It doesn't last. It's like junk happiness. Right? It's it's not really happiness at all, right? It's a it's a myth. So I find that really, really powerful. And the phrase you're alluding to, there's a section in the book called make everyone a hero. So if you're struggling, ask yourself, what story do I need to tell myself here to make them a hero? Now, here's the thing, right? I'm so passionate about this, mate. This moves the needle in health. This is one of the biggest things that's had the impact on me. It really has. And it's free. Everything in the book's free. You don't need to buy anything. You just need to decide that I want a bit more out of life than I'm currently getting. I don't know if you've ever heard this or not, but one of the most powerful conversations I've had in my life on my podcast, well, on or off the podcast, frankly, was with someone called Dr. Edith Eger.
Dr Rupy: Yes. Yeah.
Dr Rongan: I, I mean, I had that conversation remotely in this room and I remember walking into the studio, when I walked out two hours later, I was not the same person. I was fundamentally changed. When I spoke to Edith about two years ago, she was 93 years old. When she was 16, she grew up in Eastern Europe. She was getting ready that night, I think, to go on a date with her boyfriend, trying to think what dress am I going to wear tonight. They get a knock on the door and her mum and dad, her and her sister get put on a train to Auschwitz concentration camp. They get to Auschwitz. Within two hours of getting there, both of her parents are murdered. Later that day, Edith gets asked to dance for the senior prison guards. The first thing she said to me that I've never forgot is she said, Rongan, I never forgot the last thing my mum said to me, which was, Edith, never forget, nobody can take from you the contents that you put inside your mind. So she says to me, when I was dancing, I wasn't dancing in Auschwitz. I was dancing in Budapest Opera House. I had a beautiful dress on, there was a full house, the orchestra was playing. That's where I was dancing. And I thought, okay, that's pretty incredible, right? To be in Auschwitz, but in your mind, you're in the opera house. Then she said to me, when I was in Auschwitz, Rongan, I came to see the prison guards as the prisoners. They weren't free and living the life they wanted to, but in my mind, I was free. I thought this is pretty incredible, right? But the thing Rupy that she said towards the end of the conversation, which I think about probably every day, she said, Rongan, I have lived in Auschwitz, but I can tell you this, the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own mind. That is what people are doing every single day. We're creating disempowering narratives in our heads. We're creating mental turmoil in our brains. We're creating these prisons. We're putting ourselves in a cage. I did for much of my life. I lived in that cage. And in that cage, you think the world's against you. If only he or she changed the way they acted, my life would be better. The problem there is, you could be waiting a long time. So if anyone thinks, okay, Rongan, I get what you're saying, you can reframe a story and they're struggling, just think about Edith Eger for a moment, which is what I do when I'm struggling. I go, okay, Rongan, listen, if Edith could reframe the story in Auschwitz, you probably can with this incident in your life.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Rongan: You know, and I think going super philosophical if you want to, it brings, for me, it brings the wider point, which is what is truth anyway? What do I mean by that? Let's take a a a relationship, right? Husband and wife or a boyfriend, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, right? Two people in a romantic relationship having an argument. What happens? Well, it kind of depends who you ask. Right? If you ask one party, they'll say, this is exactly how this went down. Walk around to the other side of the table, ask the other party, they'll give you a different account of the same situation, same situation. Um, psychologists studied football fans, right? They took these two sets of football fans, they showed them the same incident. They asked them both what happened. Two completely different reports. Right? So what is truth? What is reality? It's all perspective, right? They've the same incident. So my point is, why not train yourself to choose the happiness story? You can train it. All you need to do is practice. So the the recommendation in the book is work out in the social gym every day. So you've spoken before about working out in a physical gym. We've spoken about it on the podcast before. Great. You're using physical weight to make yourself get stronger. I'm saying let's work out in the social gym. Any time you come up against any social friction, the action of somebody else bothering you, ask yourself, can I rewrite a story here? Can I choose a different perspective? And I promise you, you start doing that. If you do that once a week, you'll be like a different person in a few months. Try and do it once a day, you will not recognise yourself in six months. You literally train yourself. Like there's a, at the back of my studio, it's my daughter's, um, she's written down my favourite Viktor Frankl quote, but she's abbreviated it and done it in her, it's what she takes from it because, you know, me and the kids, we talk about this stuff, you know, daddy's Sunday breakfast, we chat these ideas through. And I don't know how she's written it, but it's it's an abbreviation of the the longer quote, but it's, you know, this idea, between stimulus and response is a space. And in that space sits choice. And with that choice comes our power and our freedom. That's not quite word for word. I'm sorry, I haven't got that for Viktor Frankl fans. It isn't quite word for word correct. But essentially, that idea that between any stimulus and stress in life and before we respond, there is a space. Now for many of us, that space is non-existent. We react. We don't respond. For most of my life, mate, I reacted. But I have trained myself now where actually sometimes in a situation, I feel like I've got five minutes to make a decision. And I probably got a few seconds. But that's the benefit of practicing regularly. This can be anything. This could be someone goes to the shops, someone, um, is in front of them in the queue, or they're trying to get on their bus and they think someone's pushed in front of them. What, you will not be short of material here to practice this. But I promise, and I promise, I if I there's only one thing I would love people to take from this podcast, it's work out in the social gym with every bit of social friction, see if you can write a different story. And here's the challenge I'd make, Rupy. You know what, you don't believe me, fine. How about this? Try it for seven days in your life and assess how you feel after seven days. If you feel no different, go, okay, yeah, I heard you, Dr. Chatterjee, but I'm not interested. Fine. But what if you feel different? What if you go, oh wow, I'm more patient, I'm more compassionate. I'm not as triggered with my kids or my partner. Because these are exactly the kinds of things that people are going to experience. And this thing is probably why, you know, my early 40s now, this is why I feel so good, mate, because I've trained myself to choose the happiness story. So my inner wellbeing is no longer up to other people. It's kind of all down to me.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And you know what? I hear you when you say that some people might be sceptical about these practices. But actually, I think rather than a nice to have, these are necessary because we are in an environment where we're constantly being fed negative information, right? I mean, just flip open Twitter, flip open Instagram where you have a comparative tool and you, you know, it's it's triggering some of those things that we were talking about earlier about external validation. We have to train ourselves to be better storytellers. And you're right, the interpretation element, that space, it might just be a millisecond, but if you can interpret signals to be more positive, then you live a much more positive life in your mind.
Dr Rongan: You do. And, you know, I mentioned being a parent was a big drive for me. Uh, my dad dying just over nine years ago was a key moment because it's the first time in my life that I'd asked myself big existential questions of who am I? Whose life am I really leading? Is it someone else's or is it mine? So those were big moments for me, um, which I think sometimes, I think sometimes people feel that they need. But it was important, you know, I, I think the other big thing for me, and I wonder what you, what your perspective would be on this. You know, we both got sizable public profiles. And I kind of feel that having a public profile in the 21st century, in 2022, with the existence of social media, means you're never short of an opinion on what post you've just put out, how you've worded something, how you could have done it better, you know, whatever, there are opinions, you know, you know what I'm talking about, right? So if you want to have a public profile, and one of the things I will say that I respect about you the most, and I've said this to you before, but it's the truth, like I respect the fact that you, I hope like me, we behave with respect and compassion on social media. We don't talk down to people, we don't denigrate other people. You know, there's other people who do it, Gem and Humans very much like that, you know, these are the people I really warm to. It's they're not letting their ego play out in public. And do you know what I mean? It's something that's really important to me. But I would, the negative feedback from other people used to really bring me down. Like I thought, I'm just trying to help people. Like, I don't understand, like when Doctor in the House came out for the first time and 99% of people were raving, but people were criticising me for like helping a lady put her type two diabetes into remission or getting rid of their pains. And I thought, I don't understand, why, what's there to criticise here? You know, isn't this a good thing? And I remember, the, you know, one episode went out, I did me and my wife barely slept for a week because I was allowing, this speaks to this whole issue. I was allowing the actions of other people to affect how I felt.
Dr Rupy: Dude, I remember when we were at the time, we were having conversations about this and you used to really struggle.
Dr Rongan: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Rupy: But it's understandable. When you have that many many viewers and many people with opinions, even that nine, like that 0.01%, that will niggle you.
Dr Rongan: And we're wired that way, but we've all got that in our lives, whether we are public figures or not. We've all got it on our level. And I realised that, well, I could either wait my entire life for people to behave a certain way or act in a certain way. I thought, Rongan, this is ridiculous. You're basically waiting for an eternity for you to feel good. I thought, well, happiness is an inside job. So I need to, it's not, for me, it's not about getting a thick skin. People say you need to get a thick skin. I actually, I disagree. I don't have a thick skin. I just approach it now with compassion. I don't, you know, a lot of us kid ourselves, oh, the actions, they don't, you know, I probably did in the past, oh, it doesn't bother me what other people say. Meanwhile, inside, it is bothering you. Whereas now, most of the time, mate, it doesn't. Like, I can see it for what it is. I can have compassion, go, God, if I was them, you know what, I'd probably, um, I'd probably, you know, if I ever get criticised now, I have a, I have a process I go through. Number one is, I say, is there any truth to this? And actually, sometimes it's like, you know what, that's a good point. I could have actually caveated it when I posted. That's a really good point. Next time I post about this topic, I'll bear that in mind. Great. Thanks so much for helping me understand that. If the answer to that question is no, there's no truth here. I'm quite happy with what I've done. Then I sort of go, well, what's going on? And more often than not, it's like, actually, this is about that person. They're obviously unhappy, having a bad day, they're taking it out on me. That's cool. I get it. You know, you don't know me. You think you do, but you follow me and you, do you know what I mean? It's, I put myself back in control. You know, back to the core happiness stool, the third leg of the stool is control. I'm not talking about controlling the world. Right? The last two years have shown us that the world is not controllable. People are not controllable. This is about a sense of control. We know from the research that people who have a sense of control over their lives, they have higher levels of success, they have higher motivation, they have higher social maturity, they live longer, they're healthier, they're happier. Right? So a sense of control is really important. So what are those things that we can all do, ideally on a daily basis, that give us a sense of control? This is why I'm a fan of a morning routine. For me, and I know you are, that it gives me a sense of control that irrespective of what's going on in the world around me, I've grounded myself. But this whole tool about reframing stories, it gives you a sense of control because otherwise you feel powerless that your inner world is like you're like a puppet on a string and other people are pulling the strings. It's like, no, no one pulls my strings anymore. I'm in charge of that. And I promise, mate, it is not as hard as people think. Now, I know there can be some people who are deeply traumatized and they might need therapy to address certain things. But even if people do, these tools, they still are helpful.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely.
Dr Rongan: You know, they really make a difference.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, huge. I mean, there's a running joke with me and my friends, right? That, um, Rupy will drink a glass of water and be like, this is the best water I've ever drunk in my life. Like, I'm eternally positive. But I, I tell you what, the best thing that I've practiced, and this is something that you write about as well, is that interpretation of the world around me and actually checking in with how I react to the world because that is so important. I mean, the extreme example of Edith who who went to Auschwitz, I think can show us that it's possible even in the most extreme of circumstances. And that was such an inspiring conversation. And I think what we can learn from that is how we apply that on a daily routine. And this is what I wanted to ask you about actually, in terms of your daily routines, because I'm a big fan of giving myself space. Now, my partner, Rochelle, is an early riser herself. So that kind of forces me to wake up at 5:00 out of necessity rather than out of want because I need to give myself that separation. But I think investing in oneself, checking in with oneself first thing in the morning is pivotal. And I know it's been really impactful for you too.
Dr Rongan: Yeah, it's huge. I've always been a morningy type person. Um, my wife does not like to get up early. Um, but ever since having kids who've always been super early risers, I very quickly realised that I'm better in every aspect of my life when I've had time to myself in the morning. I'm a better human being, I'm a better father, I'm a better husband, I'm a better doctor. So I've evolved my lifestyle to be go to bed early, I get to bed super early, and I get up super early. So I will, yeah, I'm up by 5:00, sometimes even half four. Okay. And again, just to be really clear, and I think it's very important when people like you or me, you know, who a lot of people follow and look up to for health advice. I'm not saying anyone else has to do this. This works for me. But really, let's zoom out from it being a morning routine for a moment. There's a chapter in the new book on solitude and why it's important to take a daily holiday. I love it. People really like this idea, right? Can I just expand on taking a daily holiday? I think it fits into the morning routine.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely.
Dr Rongan: The idea for this chapter came from one of my mates who used to work in a factory. And he said to me once, he said, I remember one of the bosses there, he had a counter on his desk and he would count down and you'd walk in one day and say, oh, only 66 days till I'm in Florida on holiday on a beach. And I thought this is interesting, isn't it? Many of us are living our lives counting down until that moment where we're on a beach. Oh, now life's going to be great. And I thought, it's not a great way to live. Like there's something wrong with looking forward to a holiday, but if life is so uncomfortable that all you've got to look forward to is a holiday, that's not a fantastic place to be. And I thought, what is it about a holiday that's so great? And I thought, well, of course it depends where you go, but there are things like sun and maybe some nice food and time away from work and there's all kinds of things. But I think one of the big things that people get from holidays is perspective. They get perspective on their life. I mean, I'm sure you know the feeling, you're on the plane, assuming you're taking a flight, and I appreciate not everyone can afford to and or do that. I understand that. But for me, even when you're taking off, you're like, you suddenly start to get this 30,000 foot view on your life. And you know, all the little things that you're concerned about when you're in your life, as soon as you step outside your life, you have a greater perspective. So I wrote this whole chapter basically on why we all need to take a daily holiday from our lives. So you don't have to wait for that one week a year. You need to do something on a daily basis, could be five minutes, 10 minutes, where you step outside your life to give yourself perspective. It could be a walk, it could be a run, it could be journaling. It could be doing a jigsaw puzzle, Pilates, anything. But I think framing it as a daily holiday is like, I step outside my life because when I'm in my life, I can't see clearly. So when I'm outside my life, I suddenly come back to it with a greater perspective. Like my brother who's three years older than me, he goes for a jog three times a week. And he always says to me, when he comes back from his jog, he's just got a greater perspective on the things that he was struggling with before. And then on the other days, he wouldn't do anything and he realised actually he needs to do a walk now as well on he needs some form of daily holiday. And my morning routine is my daily holiday. It's when I get perspective on my life. All the stuff that we're talking about about happiness, that's kind of where I figure everything out. So I get up at 5:00. Let's say 5:00, sometimes it's half four, but to make it simple, I get up at 5:00 and then I, um, I have what I call these three M's of a morning routine, mindfulness, movement, and mindset. So I try and cover those bases. Now, it used to be a lot more rigid than it is now because I needed the rigidity in the past because of a lot of my internal turmoil, that gave me the structure to follow it. I'm much more relaxed these days. I don't, do you know what I mean? It relates to what I said before about meditation. I'm much more relaxed. So I'll tell you, what does it currently look like? And again, I've got quite a long routine now, but I've realised for me, this helps me in every aspect of my life. So I've created a life and I've, you know, look, to be clear, right? And I think this comes back to alignment as well. Like I'm that person who has not a clue who's in the latest films, who's on telly, who the celebrities are. I don't know. I'm not interested. I don't consume, I don't watch telly. Like I do the things in my life that are important to me. So what what are those things? Well, I do my job, which sometimes it's seeing patients, sometimes it's recording podcasts, sometimes it's teaching doctors or writing books. Um, I help look after my mum. Right? And I spend time with my family and I try and have a bit of time to engage in passions like running or playing my guitar or snooker or whatever. Right? So I don't have time. And you know the volume of content I put out each week, right? I don't have time for that other stuff. And that's fine. It's no, it's no hindrance to me. I don't miss not watching whatever's on ITV in the evening or whatever. I don't. It's like, so I go to bed by 9:00 most nights. I'm asleep by 9:00 p.m. and I'm up by 5:00. I'm not saying anyone else has to do it, but for me, it allows me and that morning time is my creative time. You know, I've written a book a year for the last five years. Like that time doesn't just come out of thin air. Like I want to be able to do that and see my wife and my kids. So I have to make, I was going to say sacrifice, but I don't even see it as a bloody sacrifice, mate. Like I'm just living an intentional life. It's not by society's rules, it's by my rules. Right? Because I've taken the time to discover what's important to me. So I get up, right? I'll come down from my bedroom to the living room. And what I do now, I've just been on this incredible breathwork course by this chap called Erwan Le Corre who founded MovNat. Okay. One of the best things I've ever done.
Dr Rupy: Oh, brilliant.
Dr Rongan: It's, it's a meditation around breath holds, which has really taught me how much my mental state influences my ability to hold my breath. It's phenomenal. I'll tell you about it. It's so good. So I will do about 10 minutes of that first thing in the morning. So that's like breathwork and meditation combined. Then I come into my kitchen. I will make coffee. So, you know, I know physiologically having coffee at that time may not be the best time for my circadian rhythm. But you know what? In the context of the rest of my life, that works beautifully well for me. The ritual there, the silence I have then, the solitude, that's a really luxurious time of the day for me. So I weigh out my coffee, 250 grams, pour in the 15 grams of water, set the timer for five minutes. And in those five minutes, you know, I've still got my pajamas on. I'm not going to lie. I'm not got changed. I'm doing a workout. So sometimes, you know, I come out into the garden, I might do some skipping, I might lift some kettlebells, I might do some stretching, but I'll roughly do five minutes of movement. And then I reward myself with a beautiful hot cup of fresh organic coffee that I've made. And then I do what I call mindset. And that is literally at the moment, sometimes it's affirmations. But at the moment, it's just reading a few pages of a book. Like I've got four or five books kicking around that I find uplifting. They're always positive. Right? And I, instead of feeding myself negativity or the news or social media first thing in the morning, hey, listen, I'm not perfect. Sometimes I slip into that. But more often than not, I know this probably lasts maybe 30 minutes. Some days, maybe 20 minutes, some days 40 minutes. And actually, a lot of people who've got kids will be thinking, okay, Rongan, yeah, what about kids? Hey, what the old Rongan used to do, I used to get really stressed if in the middle of my morning routine, my son or my daughter would come downstairs. I'd be like, oh man, I can't believe it. I just, I just want this time to myself. I wouldn't say anything to them. I'd just say it inside. And then, again, that's creating emotional tension and stress. It's like it's not accepting the reality of our life. Once we don't accept the reality of our life, we start to bring in tension, right? So it's like, oh, cool. So I get the kids involved now. So if they come down when it's movement time, say, hey, daddy's about to do his five minutes of movement. Do you want to join me? If it's mindset time, I'll either do an affirmation with the kids. So I may have said this to you before, with my daughter, I often we hold hands and say, I'm happy, I'm calm, I'm stress-free. We say that for a minute or two. Or I'll say, hey guys, you know, this routine's really important to daddy. I'm just going to do a bit of reading. Can you give me about 10 minutes? And often my daughter or my son say, hey, do you mind if I can I just come and read next to you? So they'll come and sit next to me and they'll read their book. So for me, it's not about separating my life away from the family. It's like including them. Once you start to try and fight that, again, your kids are going to get up. Right? If you think you're going to create this sacred space, you're not a monk, you don't live in a monastery. Actually, that is going to happen. So a big shift in my life happened when I instead of resisting that, I embraced it. Go, okay, great. And sometimes now they're a bit older, they're like, actually, daddy, I'll come back in 10 minutes. Right? And that's cool as well. Like they're like, no, I'll go and do my thing. I'll come back in 10 minutes when you're finished. And so, you know, for me, it's a really beautiful part of the day that I really, I actually, I'm looking forward, even at 8:00 p.m. I'm like, oh my God, only an hour and I'm asleep and then I get to, then I have that time again. Like I'm actually looking forward to getting up. And then the other thing that I think's really relevant here, which I think you'll resonate with because we're both doctors. Do you remember early warning systems?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, EWS.
Dr Rongan: EWS, right? When I when I was writing that chapter, I had this memory. I thought, oh man, I remember being a, I think I was a senior house officer in medicine at the Western General in Edinburgh. I remember one of my seniors teaching us about these early warning systems, going, guys, listen, if we track these metrics, heart rate, respiratory rate, oxygen saturations, we can predict who's going to need a high dependency bed or an intensive care bed hours before it happens. I thought this is awesome, right? So we can track it and then by knowing who's starting to move in that direction, we can take preemptive action and change it. That's what a daily holiday is for all of us, right? It's our own early warning system. So one of the big problems with health and happiness in my view is that we don't spend any time with ourselves. We get up, we're straight on our phones, we're consuming news, social media, podcasts, uh, emails, work, even good content. Even good content. If you're constantly consuming external content, right, you never get a chance to understand how you feel. Your thoughts are influenced by the thoughts of everyone else. Right? And like you, I'm a podcast host. I like people listening to my podcast. But I would also encourage people to have a bit of time where they're not even consuming inspirational podcast content. And it becomes your own early warning system. As what I've realised, and this will have been going on for years, Rupy, but I never realised, was that if my stress load is rising, what happens is in my upper right back, I start to feel a tension. Now, I only know that because of my morning routine. That when I'm with myself, whether it's the breathwork or just sitting there and reading, it's like, oh, man. But many of us were so busy, we're so in our own heads with other people's content, we've we've lost touch with our own bodies. So now for me, if I'm ever having that time, and here's the reality, once you get good at training your, you know, having this perspective on a daily holiday, you see it in other aspects of your life. I'm aware when that right back tension is coming in. And for me, it's like, oh, right, hold on a minute. You've probably got too much work on at the moment. You're not sleeping enough. Tonight, you better go to bed a bit earlier. Tomorrow, you better cancel that engagement. You know, if you're able to, you can take preemptive action, just like that patient before they end up in high dependency. Well, we're the patient in our own lives before we end up having a row with our partner or having a burnout or blowing off at our boss because we're so agitated. This becomes your early warning system in your own life. So people don't, it doesn't need to be the three M's. I would, I would, um, encourage anyone who feels inspired or a little bit interested by that to go, to ask yourself, do you take 10 minutes a day to be with yourself? If you don't, do you think you could bring that in? How might you bring that in? You know, because everyone's got different lifestyles, different family situations, you know, what I do works for me. It may not for someone else, but I do strongly feel that we all need a daily holiday.
Dr Rupy: What did you think about that analogy with early warning systems? Because I think it works perfectly for me anyway.
Dr Rongan: Yeah, I think that works really well. I think the idea of checking in on our obs, our observations, you know, what those different, those different, uh, signals are to us. And they might be different for different people. For you, it's, you know, the the the back pain. For other people, it might be irritability, aggressiveness, hunger, you know, snackiness, uh, all all those different things. And and, you know, encouraging people to take a step back and try and figure out why that might be happening, I think is a really good practice. And on the, I mean, I'm a massive fan of morning routines, as you can tell. And it's so funny when you were talking about how your kids coming in and interrupting it initially, how that would have caused a bit of distress. Honestly, this is where me and Rochelle had a bit of friction a couple of years ago because I needed that time and I didn't have the ability to express why I needed that to Rochelle. So every time she would come in, ask me questions, like, you know, I'm trying to get into my meditative state here. I would just, it would have the exact opposite effect on me. I would just get super stressed. And then we had a puppy and then obviously the puppy wouldn't sleep in. I'd be up at 5:00, the puppy would get up at 5:00 and I'd have to take the puppy out and then all of a sudden my 30 minutes in the morning has turned into an hour taking care of the puppy instead of myself. And so all those things is and now I've just sort of like lent into it. I'm like, on the weekends when Rochelle is there and maybe I've not woken up at 5:00, maybe it's 5:30 or 6:00 and she comes in, first of all, we had a conversation about how like I'm doing things in the morning, so she's a little bit more sensitive. But second of all, I'm not stressed out by that at all. I'm just like, it just washes over me and I really enjoy it because at the end of the day, it comes down to a little bit of vanity, I think, and ego for us, isn't it? That we need this time and it's my time and it's no one else's. I think it's really important to just be a little bit more relaxed with it.
Dr Rongan: There's so much that came up there for me as you were saying that, like because I know what that feels like and I know how good it feels to not feel like that anymore. And I remember this a few months ago, whatever reason, I think I was getting to bed later and waking up later. And so the kids were down earlier on in the routine. And I remember once I was meditating, this was not the new breathwork thing that I've done. It was just, it was just like a more standard meditation. And I could hear the kids playing and sort of fighting a bit and just outside the living room door. And I just smiled to myself and go, oh, this is great. Okay, now can you meditate through this? This is great. This is like going to the gym and lifting heavier weights. It's like, oh, okay, so you can meditate in silence. Can you now meditate whilst there's noise around you? Because ultimately, what we're looking for is to bring that, you know, that morning routine actually is not about those 30 minutes. It's about the other 23 and a half hours of the day. Right? It's a training period that enables, yeah, sure, I'm, I'm hopefully asleep for eight hours of those. So, you know, whatever, 15 hours or so. It's, it's to show up better in those 15 hours. That's what it's for. It's not necessarily about that half an hour. The other thing that came up for me as you were describing that is it comes back to that same thing, whatever we're resisting the way something is, we bring tension in. And that tension needs to be dissipated in some way. But if you're thinking, oh man, does she not know this is my time? It's again, it goes back to that disempowering narrative. Like, now, it could be in someone's life that go, hey, listen, you know, we've come up with a deal that actually at this time of the day, I need this, but when do you need yours? That may work for some families or some relationships. I'm not here ever to prescribe what someone should or shouldn't do. But again, that's a moment of friction. And the other way I like looking at these moments of friction are whenever we're getting triggered by someone else, it's an opportunity for us to go, why? Like this, once you start looking for this friction in your life, it's so empowering, mate, because every day becomes a school day. Like every day you're learning about yourself. Go, oh, it's bothering me that I can't have that time to myself. Why? Oh, you know, and you start asking yourself those questions day in, day out. In a year's time, you'll be like a black belt over your own emotions. Seriously, mate. You're literally going to daily mind practice. And so a week and a month in, like I feel one of the things I feel really good about these days is that I find myself getting triggered very, very rarely these days. It does happen. No way near the amount it used to. And if it does happen, I can catch it. Not the day after, maybe in the moment, maybe 10 minutes later, ah, you know what, I reacted emotionally there. So that gap becomes narrower and narrower where you suddenly start to see when it happens. And you know, there's real world situations where things have happened. You know, maybe this isn't the best example, but three weeks ago, Happy Mind, Happy Life came out. And in that week, there was heavy promo and I was about to go on BBC One Morning Live. Okay, I know you've been on the show many times. And it's a live telly appearance. And the taxi was meant to come at a certain time to take me to the studio. And I'd got ready and I'd shaved because I was going to be on on camera. So otherwise I probably normally don't. Um, and I was all ready, got my stuff and the taxi had left. The I saw the taxi leave. The taxi had left. Right. Right? And I could tell the taxi was a bit annoyed because the taxi thought it was half an hour earlier than it was. And I said to the taxi driver, hey, listen, this is the pickup time actually, because oh, I didn't know. I said, hey, it's cool. I was certainly relaxed. I said, hey, if you need to go, that's fine. I'll get another cab. No, no, I'll wait. Okay, so they wait. When I come down, cab's gone. And I saw the time and I thought, I haven't got long left actually to get in. Mate, I was so chilled. Like, even two years ago, I would have felt the stress go up in my body and be like, oh man, I can't believe this. Man, this typical this would happen. Like I've, you know, whatever, whatever disempowering narrative. But in that moment, honestly, this is so fresh in my mind. It was very much like, okay, cool. The cab driver's got bored, he's gone. Okay, cool. Um, I'm going to have to phone some local firms, um, and if there's one available to take me, great. If not, I'll have to come up with another solution. Phoned up one, they were free, came five minutes later. And what was so beautiful for me is that all the training that I feel I do on a daily basis by looking for social friction, working on this stuff, having the solitude, then in a real world situation, which would have been incredibly stressful a couple of years ago, it nothing happened.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Rongan: It was so beautiful because I thought, oh, this stuff's working. Like I know I feel better, but this is a prime example. And I'm not trying to give it, I hope I'm not giving the impression that I'm a saint and I never ever get triggered. I rarely do these days. But five years ago, it was a very disempowering narrative. And what I'm, I'm hoping, I want to inspire people and go, if you regularly practice this stuff, and it costs zero pounds to do, right? No money. You will find that before you know it, you start to react differently.
Dr Rupy: You know, I know it sounds, it might sound to some people like a trivial example, but actually, if you dig down and you think about all those micro moments where you do get annoyed by anything, I mean, like I can think of an example just yesterday when I was trying to listen to a podcast on my walk with my dog that I think I messaged you from. And the podcast player wasn't playing. And I think I didn't have 4G on my walk in the park, right? And I know it sounds really stupid, but in my head I was like, bloody phone service, I pay X amount every single month and I can't believe I don't get it in this wide open park. And I know it sounds really stupid, but that narrative that I tell myself, even in that micro moment, creates that stress response and then sets the path for other things to happen later on. And that is the point.
Dr Rongan: That's the point. It's not neutral. That stuff is real.
Dr Rupy: And that reminds me of this section in that go on a holiday every day chapter that I, I really, I remember spending a lot of time on it thinking, I have to put this in. And it really speaks to what you just said. And it's this idea that, like this idea of taking a daily holiday, for many people, it's easiest to do this with some form of movement, going for a walk, going for a run. That's great, and I'm all for that. But the problem is is if you need movement in order for you to gain your perspective, you're again putting yourself in a very fragile place. What happens if you sprain your ankle or you get injured? This happens to athletes all the time, or weekend athletes. Things are great, their mental health's in the check, they go for their run at the weekend. Oh, you've pulled your hamstring, you can't run anymore. They crumble, go to bits because their method of de-stressing has been taken away from them. So if you're someone who's listening to this and you like those movement holidays, and I, I tell, there's a case study I share in the book how actually I had a patient just like this who this happened to and they also needed to find a, what I call a sitting daily holiday, a non-movement one. So journaling, you know, the three best ones I think are journaling, meditation, or breathwork where you don't need to move in order to get your perspective and your daily holiday. And it just insulates you a little bit more from only having one method. And the other example I I write about in that chapter is about this idea that I've seen with patients before that everything has to be right. Oh, the Bluetooth is not working between my headphones and my phone. I can't listen to music or a podcast on my walk. And what should be a nice relaxing experience becomes stress-inducing. Right? Like, again, we're all human. I'm not saying we're all going to be perfect. But the more you do that, and and really trying to bring it, why why is this stuff relevant on a health podcast like yours? Right? Why is this relevant, mate? It's because, you know, we've covered this already, but it ain't just food, movement, sleep, and stress. Those things are really important. But you also got to look at emotional health. You got to look at how you deal with friction, how you deal with adversity. If you're waiting for everything to be perfect for your life to be good, you're going to be waiting a long time. The skills that I've outlined in the book are all very, very practical and they help you train that skill of happiness and they train you so you are better at dealing with the inevitable obstacles and stresses that come into your life. They're going to happen. If you think happiness is when those things go, you ain't ever going to get there. It's you have to, and I, I really hope, I know this book is going to help the public, you know, I'm already getting the feedback on that and I'm delighted. Um, because I think it's really important. But I really also hope that it helps shine a light on this for the medical profession. Because we ain't talking about this, even in this, you know, so-called progressive, I mean, I'd like to think we're quite progressive in the way we think in terms of what we're trying to bring to people. But even within that movement, I think this is a very, very, um, underappreciated area, which is why I'm so, I guess so passionate about trying to get it out there.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you've eloquently described some of the robust studies that give weight to this argument. Not that I think we always need to look at hard evidence to understand why this is so important, because you can see it in anecdotes and in clinical practice. But I think the way we approach it, I mean, like me and Rochelle, um, I don't think I've ever talked about this, but we're very healthy people in terms of all the diet and lifestyle things that we do. But even us, we had emotional difficulties that we had to lend ourselves to a therapist to sort of work through things. So our emotional health definitely needed an investment. And that's not to say that we're never going to have those obstacles again in the future. We are 100% going to have those obstacles. But now we have a toolkit within ourselves and ourselves, our unit as a couple, such that we can tackle the inevitable. And I think what you're bringing to light in such an eloquent way with the pod, but also the book as well, is that toolkit to not only practice mental fitness and improving your emotional strength, but also the daily things that can make us more resilient and better interpreters of the world around us that can be perceived as negative.
Dr Rongan: Yeah, for sure. I think what you said about relationships is just so important. And I think it speaks to this wider point that being able to communicate in relationships is not a skill that we learn anywhere. You know, for most of us, we literally replicate what we saw when we were growing up. Right? Most of us, many of us. And the first time you become aware that people have a different perspective on that stuff is when you are in a relationship. I know when I got married, it's like, oh, your view of the world and how couples interact, of course, it's based upon what your parents, but my parents had a completely different relationship to your parents. So that's not my normality, that's your normality. And initially that can cause a lot of friction until you again can approach it from that place of compassion and be, oh, that's why you think that way and this is why I think this way. You know, on relationships, um, I don't know if this is useful or not, but something that really, like I feel very lucky that I feel very okay saying I've got a fantastic relationship with my wife. That does not mean everything's been smooth. You know, when I spoke to Esther Perel on my show, I said to her on the podcast that had we not been married, we are both certain that we would have split up in our first year of marriage because we got, it was a whirlwind romance. I proposed after three months, we got married after eight months, you know, we were both head over heels in love. I just got excited one day and proposed and and then we really got to know each other in different ways in that first year of marriage and had had we not been married, we think we would have split up. And it was quite interesting. I mean, there's a lot there to unpick, but our struggles and our difficulties have made us stronger and have made us closer. In fact, I wouldn't trade any of them in because it's through the friction that the great learnings have come, just as we were talking about the social friction can teach you so much about yourself. Well, friction in a relationship can teach you so much about your relationship. And I actually think that it's a necessary thing to go through for that relationship to get stronger. You need to lift weights in the gym to get stronger. You need to come up against friction in your relationship to figure out what is it telling you.
Dr Rupy: Mate, I feel like your books have all had massive impact. And I, but I really think that this particular book is, is hitting the nail on the head for a lot of people. It's obviously had like a massive impact already. But I think people are going to take away so much from this conversation and from the information that you put out there. So congrats, man. I'm really, I'm really excited to see how it goes as well and this changes into a movement.
Dr Rongan: Yeah, thanks, mate. Thanks for having me on the show again for the fourth time, is it?
Dr Rupy: I think it's fourth. Yeah, I think it's fourth time.
Dr Rongan: Might be fourth. It's been a while.
Dr Rupy: I think this is the longest, I don't know how long we've been going for, but
Dr Rongan: There's no clocks in the studio for a reason, mate.
Dr Rupy: I think, uh, I think this is probably our longest conversation, but I feel it's weird because I feel like we are again warming up.
Dr Rongan: We're warming up. I know. We can literally go on. This is, I need to go to the toilet. I'm definitely feeling quite sweaty.
Dr Rupy: Oh, but no, I appreciate it. I appreciate the time. I appreciate your work, your love, and uh, yeah, I'm all here for you, pal. I'm I'm just excited to see what you come up with. I don't know how you're going to top this, but I'm sure you will.
Dr Rongan: Do you feel this like I've always felt with every book that that's it. I've got nothing left. Like these are all my ideas, but I'm already I think we should say this. I've I've already been jotting down notes for book six.
Dr Rupy: Actually, let's talk about this because I think this goes back to my one of my questions earlier about how you've done the show and then you and then I would have been like, I've peaked. Amazing. Like, you know, why do I need to write another couple of books or whatever? But I think you're pushing the needle all the time. What what's what's in the, we haven't been taking this seriously enough, I think. Emotion wellbeing, happiness as a concept and all the tools that we need to practice daily to improve that. What else do you think we're missing at the moment? Are you what are you been jotting down?
Dr Rongan: Wow, what have I been jotting down? So, a couple of ways to answer that. So, I remember when I finished my first book, The Four Pillar Plan, and I'd signed a two-book deal. So my first deal was a two-book deal. I thought I'm done. Like I've literally put everything I know into that one book. But what I've come to learn is that every single human is infinitely creative. We don't think we are. I didn't think I was. A lot of that's an insecurity, right? We think that where we are today is the best that we can do. Like you said, you've peaked. If I had peaked at that point, what does that say about the rest of my life? I don't want to peak. I don't want to ever peak. I want each year, each day to be, well, I was going to say better than the last, and that actually puts a new pressure on. Right? Like it's this whole idea of, um, your wedding day is the best day of your life. We know for me it wasn't. You can ask Vid, you can ask me, we'll both say it wasn't the best day of our life. It wasn't back then, it certainly isn't now. Because if that was the best day of my life, then what does that say about the next 14 years of my marriage? It was it downhill from the wedding day? No. So it was a great day, but I've had many great days in my life. And I think sometimes we, we we fit into these kind of big narratives and we put so much on something like a one day and if it doesn't fit that, it's like, oh man, I, you know, and then again, it's an opportunity to learn about yourself. Why does it matter so much that that day is perfect? Now for someone else, it might do. I'm getting slightly off track, but the point I'm trying to make is that I never want to peak. I've realised that what happens with me is when I've locked away a book and sent it off for print, it's like I've downloaded all my ideas and thoughts and I can almost get them out of my head. And then suddenly, I see new ideas everywhere. I'm on the train, oh, that's an idea. That's an idea. Right? This is an idea. And I start to, um, I'm just every morning now in that sort of mindset piece with the coffee, sometimes I'm just writing, oh God, this is an idea. Now, I can't say it's a coherent book idea yet, but I've got all these ideas of various things. And I think to make it relevant for people, because not everyone writes books, everyone's got that creative element in their own life if they trust themselves. Often we forget that we are infinitely creative. You know, you know, we we get stuck in what I call in the book in the adulthood contract. We get weighed down by responsibility and bills and mortgage and car leases, whatever. And I get that. But you don't have to keep yourself trapped there. There are simple things that you can do. So, you know, I've now learned to trust myself and go, okay, I will write a book six and it will be very good. But I can't tell you what the idea is. What's in my head at the moment in terms of what's the missing piece is actually relationships. Relationships are arguably the number one factor for health and happiness. Quality relationships have time and time again been shown to be one of the most important things for people in their happiness over their lives. There's a there's a brilliant study in Harvard over 75 years now it's been running. The number one factor that determines people's happiness over the course of their life, whether you're from a working class background or a professional background, quality of your relationships. So over the last few days, I've been jotting down ideas about a book on relationships. What does that look like? You know, what's the angle that me as a doctor with 20 plus years experience, what am I going to bring? You know, because because what I think is quite unique about it is why is a doctor writing a book on happiness? You know, it's not normally a doctor writing a book on happiness. It's like a psychologist or you know, but I feel what I'm doing with my career, it wasn't intentional, but and this is something, this is actually, I'll give our mutual buddy Drew a lot of credit for this. I remember, you know, we've we've got a shared friend in Drew and last time I was in LA many years ago, staying with him, we were out for breakfast one morning. And he said to me, Rongan, you know, what I see you doing in a way that I don't see other people doing is you're bringing health outside of the health space. And I don't think I quite got it at the time, but I kind of feel that's what I'm kind of doing. Health is everything. The way you feel, my podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When you feel better in yourself, you get more out of your life, more out of your health life, more out of your personal life, more out of your professional life, more out of your relationships. I think health is that starting point that when you're feeling good in yourself, it helps everything else. And that's why I have such a diverse group of people I speak to on my podcast, including, you know, including people like Matthew McConaughey or Priyanka Chopra. Right? Why would I speak to them on a health podcast? Because I think everyone's got a story. Everyone's got an angle. Everyone's got a health angle that's relevant and we can learn. I feel like I'm waffling a bit here. I don't know if this is making sense.
Dr Rupy: No, this is definitely making sense because I think I was there at that interaction and I think Drew's observation of how you're bringing it outside of that health and wellness space is is bang on. And it explains why you speak to such a diverse range of people on the podcast. And it explains why so many people can't put the books down because it's, what you said a little bit earlier, it's the, it's a sign of a master to make something complex super, super simple. And that's something that you're able to distill super well.
Dr Rongan: Well, you know, it's it's a skill like anything that needs practice. And when I was reading the final edits of this book, there was one section on self-talk actually where it's now three or four paragraphs. I thought when I started that, that was about 30 paragraphs. Right? And I cut and I cut and I was brutal. I thought, you don't need that. You don't need that. And I think sometimes the the old Rongan, it was, um, like I remember, I don't think I've ever said this before. I don't know if I have or not, but the four pillar plan, my first book, which, you know, I'm incredibly grateful with how well it did and the impact it's had. And I'm still very, very proud of it. But I remember hearing from someone, um, that saying some of the doctors within the lifestyle medicine movement go, yeah, but you know, I could have written that. And, um, I know now because and I'm okay with it. It's like, there's, I've experienced it quite a lot. There's there's a lot of jealousy out there over certain things and certain people. I understand that can only come from a place of insecurity. I've had jealousy issues in my past. Right? So I get it. But I remember at the time thinking, hey, go for your life. You know, I don't know who these people were, but someone very close to me said, look, there's a few people saying, you know, it's very simple, you know, they could have written that. I'm like, hey guys, in my head, I'm like, go for your life. Try and make something that simple. Go for it. If you can, all credits to you because I bust a gut trying to come up with that format of this equal thing, five chapters in each of the four pillars to bring this beautiful symmetry. Like I remember on my fridge, I once had 30 ideas or I had I had seven ideas in food and only two in relax. I thought, how can you create this beautiful balance? And that's a bit of ego from back then because I didn't like the fact that people were saying that. I thought, okay, you guys try it. And I'm okay with it now. I haven't thought about that in years. Do you know what I mean?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, I completely get that because I reread my first book and I, it was jam packed with information. It was just like, this is about turmeric and this is how your body reacts and all these studies and all that kind of stuff. And I think had I written that book today, it would have been very, very simplified. Almost like my last book, 321. And even the next book that's going out, as we were chatting about over lunch, it's a very, very simplified version of what the principles of healthy eating are. And I'm just getting to the crux of it, which is consistency and how you make it enjoyable and how you make it part of your life and something that you actually genuinely want to do and it just fits in.
Dr Rongan: But you can't get to the simplicity without going through the process. That's the thing, right? I couldn't have written Happy Mind, Happy Life, I don't think in this way, had I not done the previous four. Right? You're skilling up. How can you expect to suddenly from nothing, get a book deal and be an incredible author? You know what I mean? If you think about it in any other aspect of life, you'd be like, no, you have to practice. You got to get the reps in. And if you're not getting better, well, it doesn't mean you have to get better, but of course you're going to grow. The other thing, coming to acceptance, which I, I'm sure you get this as well, a lot of, um, medics or young authors or junior authors, I guess, relative to to me, contact me for advice. And I, even a mutual friend of ours who's got a book out, I said, listen, mate, you've got to remember, a book is a snapshot in time. Right? That's it. You have a deadline, you finish it, it goes off to print. You don't suddenly stop thinking about those ideas. Those ideas don't suddenly stop evolving. There is, perfection doesn't exist. Right? If I was writing the four pillar plan now, it would be a different book. There was a certain magic that it was what I could do at that moment in my life. That's where the magic was. If I kept refining it and working on it for another two years, maybe I would have over-tinkered it. Right? And this, you know, I'm a huge music fan. And the thing that really, um, I always think about when I'm getting to the final stages of the book is, I don't know if you're a U2 fan. I was a huge U2 fan as a kid. And Bono, the singer in U2, I remember in the 90s, he gave an interview and I think their, I don't know, was it 94, their PopMart album came out. And it was a big, um, I don't know if I got quite got the year right, but essentially, he said, when the album went out, it wasn't finished. But the problem is, we'd sold out a worldwide tour. The tour was already booked. You know, people were coming. We had to put the album out. The tour was to promote the album. And he said, whilst we were on tour for that year, all the songs evolved. Had we recorded it 12 months later, it'd be a different album. And, you know, I heard that in my 90s. I wasn't an author. I was probably a student or maybe I was still at school at the time. But that lodged in my memory. I thought that, that, it was one of those things that really spoke to me that it's just a moment in time. And then it takes the pressure off and go, listen, when Happy Mind, Happy Life went to print, that's the best I could do. Right? If I had two more weeks, yeah, I'd probably change it a bit more. If I had six more months, I'd probably change it a bit more. If I was writing it now, it would be a different book. But I think that's a very freeing and hopefully liberating idea for whether you're an author or not, all you can ever do is the best that you can do. Right? Perfection doesn't exist. Stop waiting for perfection. It's a, it's a, it's a constantly moving target. You know, be kind to yourself, be present, and do the best that you can.
