#46: Feel Better in 5 with Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: I don't think people need to feel bad about these decisions that they're making, because this is the rules of human behaviour. This is how we are wired. We take the path of least resistance most of the time. So that is why the best science and the best of my experience says that to make a change that lasts in the long term, you've got to start small.

Dr Rupy: I'm Dr Rupy and this is the Doctor's Kitchen podcast, the show about medicine, food, lifestyle and how to improve your health today. And my guest today in the kitchen studio is a good friend of mine, Dr Rangan Chatterjee, and we're going to be talking about his latest book, Feel Better in 5, which I think is a wonderful, practical book. It's already become a Sunday Times bestseller and a whole bunch of people are raving about it with good reason as well. In the studio today, we talk about behaviour change, we talk about motivation, we talk about identity, and we reflect a lot of the things that he's talked about in the book, but also we go a little bit deeper as well. I think you'll clearly hear through the audio that Rangan is a really good friend of mine. We've supported each other throughout this whole crazy social media/book writing journey and I'm just a very big fan of his work as well. You can also find all of his work on social media, his links and drchatterjee.com as well. All of the links will be on the podcast show notes on the doctorskitchen.com. Please check out YouTube as well because I actually shock him with how simple the dish is that I make him. It's a rice and lentil dish with sardines and masala spices, absolutely phenomenal and only takes five minutes to prep. So in line with his book title and the kind of recipes that I'm creating now in the Doctor's Kitchen, please go check it out. I think you'll find it really, really inspiring. Plus, we do one of his smoothie recipes that he's got in his book as well that only takes five minutes too. So, without further ado, it's a long podcast. I think you're going to really, really enjoy it. Please leave us a five-star review, check out my guest and onto the podcast. Mate, lunch was unbelievable and I'll be honest with you, that lunch you just made me might have changed my life. And I'm not exaggerating because I haven't seen a quick meal put together like that. Certainly I don't do that. And I'm a huge fan of quick, healthy meals, but just to see you prep in under five minutes in a pan and then shove it in the oven and then it's ready and it's delicious. Unbelievable, mate. So thank you very much indeed.

Dr Rupy: That's great. I'm going to get that quote for my next book, whenever that is. So, let's talk about your book. Let's talk about your year first, actually, mate, because I know books don't just come out of the ether. There's a lot of time, there's a lot of prep, effort into it. And you've had a really busy year. So just talk me about the process behind how you've come up with the concept and what you've been up to as well.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yes, so if you rewind a year, my second book, The Stress Solution, came out and it was really good. It was really exciting to actually dive deep into one particular topic because I, like you, I'm a generalist. I like looking at everything. And it was great to actually look at stress, but also take a holistic approach to stress. Everything I do is always trying to take a rounded approach to things. And as part of the book tour, I did a lot of events last year around the country and also in Scandinavia. Common themes kept coming up. When you talk to people, the great thing about going and doing live events is that you actually meet people who buy your books or listen to the podcast. You start to hear the impact that the work has had on people. It's just incredibly humbling to hear that. But you also hear some of their obstacles that people are finding in general. And the theme that kept coming up, not only with people on the book tour, but patients in practice, just people I talk to, friends, the biggest obstacle people are often saying to making lifestyle changes is time. People say, I want to make change, I don't have time. And I was sitting with that a little bit and thinking about what do I do with my patients? I think, well, actually, I always do things with them that don't take much time. The things that I've found over coming up to 20 years now seeing patients, the patients who tend to have made the successful transformation, not only in the short term but the long term, I found that the way I help them do that is by encouraging them to do things that don't take much time. So the whole, that started off that process of thinking, well, I'm going to write a book to try and simplify health for people even more. And everything in the new book takes only five minutes. I've got to say, it's a message that really seems to be connecting with people because the truth is, people want to feel better. People aren't happy with feeling fatigued. They're not happy with having health problems. Yes, they're hearing in the media all the time or on Instagram, they should do this, they should do that. A lot of people I see are trying. But they're busy. And so I thought, I'm going to try and create something that makes health even simpler for people. My stated mission, and three years ago, I never would have had the courage to say this, but I've been doing a lot of work on my own issues and why I wouldn't think like this, why I wouldn't say it. My goal in my career is to try and improve the lives of 100 million people. And that sounds like quite a wild claim. But I once read this article in the Guardian where it said, I think 100 million people around the globe have to choose between food and health care. And it really struck me reading that. I thought, well, 100 million, that's quite, that's quite an incredible figure. And why I think it might be achievable is when I did my BBC One series, Doctor in the House, which is when we first connected over social media back in 2015, I think. A long time now. Yeah, exactly. I remember seeing the figures and seeing that 5 million people have watched this each week in the UK. Since then, it's gone to about 70 countries around the world. And I thought, well, if 1% of people who have watched that make some change in their lifestyle, then you've just impacted 50,000 people. If it's 10%, that's half a million people. And I thought, well, I became a doctor to help people, but what I've realised is that I think about 80% of what I see as a GP is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. And so I can maybe see 30, on a busy NHS day, 40 patients, sometimes more, but let's say 30, 35, right? Well, if I'm saying that the majority of what I'm seeing is in some way related to our lifestyles, well, I sort of feel I can have more impact now. I love seeing patients, but I think I can have more impact through books and podcasts and using social media as a force for good, putting out positive, encouraging messaging. And so, for me, it was all about time though. It was all about how do you make this message accessible to more people? How do you get people who wouldn't consider looking at your first two books because they thought, actually, there's too much in there, health is not for me. How do you go, no, actually, you know what? Health is relevant for every single one of us. We all deserve good health. I think it's our birthright. And I don't think health is as hard as we think it is. I think we've made it way too complicated. And what I've tried to do, and this book has been incredibly difficult to write. And I don't think that will be clear when people read it because it is, it is, simplicity is hard. It would have been much easier for me to make it bigger, put more studies in, give more information. But I was taking the opposite approach with this book. I was saying, what can I take out? What, how can I distill health down to its absolute essence? And, you know, it's been out a couple of weeks as of recording this podcast, and frankly, I could never have dreamed it would have this much connection with the public so far. People seem to be really, really loving it and getting the idea.

Dr Rupy: It definitely feels like when I read it, you've gone into your flow state almost. It's kind of like, it must have been a joy to write, but also very difficult, as you said, because you need to try and simplify as much for the reader. I remember you saying something yesterday about when you came to do the audio book after leaving the edits for a good month or so, you know, it was actually a pleasure to listen back to. You were like, okay, yeah, no, I expect this is going to hit a chord with people. What I find fascinating is that you'd almost expect someone who works in general practice in the NHS to have figured ways in which to instigate behaviour changes given the time constraints we have as GPs. We have less than 10 minutes per patient. You'd think that this would just be the norm across the country, but frankly, it's not. And I don't, I can't explain that 100%. I can't explain as to why lifestyle hasn't permeated through. But what I wanted to ask is, how did you come to this conclusion? Is it from the experience of writing two books before, or is this something that kind of clicked with you quite early on in your clinical career?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: About lifestyle as medicine or?

Dr Rupy: As lifestyle medicine, but also the time aspect of it, the actual habit change and how you have to get into people's lives.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Well, I think it's a great question because with hindsight, this is what I've always done. So before I knew the science of habit change, which we, maybe we'll get into, six, seven years ago, I actually, yeah, I think this patient really beautifully illustrates the concept of the book, which is a 42-year-old man comes into the clinic, comes in to see me, a little bit overweight, struggling a little bit with his mood and feeling low in energy. And these are very, very common symptoms that many people now struggle with and want help with. And I spoke to him and it was quite clear at the end of our conversation that for me, there were various things in his lifestyle that were probably contributing to the way he was feeling. And so I discussed a number of options with him, and he really liked the idea of strength training. He said, doc, I love it. Strength training. Yeah, that's it for me. And he asked me, he said, can I, what should I do? 40 minutes, three times a week at the gym? I think he might have read it in a magazine somewhere, or that's commonly what you read, right? And I said, hey, look, if you can do that, that'll be amazing. So he walks out feeling good with himself that he's got a plan. One month later, he comes back in to see me. And I said, hey, how are you doing? How was the gym? Has it made a difference? And his body language was, you know, it was different. He sort of had his shoulders hunched over. He looked a bit sheepish, a bit ashamed of himself. And he said, doctor, work's been really busy. The gym's actually quite expensive. It's not that near to either my home or my work. I've not actually managed to go yet. He looked really embarrassed. And probably a bit like you, I I sort of never thought, why is he not doing what I've asked him to do? I actually thought, Rangan, you're not giving him advice that he feels is relevant for him in the context of his life. And so I can still remember it really well. I took my jacket off and I said, right, I'm going to teach you a five-minute workout right now where you don't need to join a gym, you don't need to buy any equipment, you don't even need to get changed. He's like, okay. So I showed him it. And he goes, okay, I could do that. I said, all right, I'd like you to do that for five minutes twice a week. He's like, what, 10 minutes a week? Is that it? I said, yeah, can you do that? He goes, yeah, of course I can do that. I said, okay, I want you to do it for five minutes twice a week in your kitchen. He goes away. One month later, he comes back in. I say, hey, how are you getting on? Now, this time, body language completely different. Standing up tall, big smile on his face. Hey, doc, I started off doing it for five minutes twice a week, but I loved it so much and I found it so easy to do and fit in that I now do it for 10 minutes every evening before my evening dinner. Now he's been doing that for over five years now. So he now does 70 minutes of strength training a week. Not at the gym, not with any fancy equipment, but in his kitchen, a kitchen like this one before he has dinner. And I have used that approach with so many patients. And I think you can actually dissect that case with the rules of habit change because it's really interesting to see why that worked. I mean, should we do, do you want me to do that? What's really interesting is that the first time he had willpower and motivation. He was like, I am going to do 40 minutes three times a week. He wasn't lacking a desire to do that, but real life got in the way and he felt as though he couldn't do it. So in the book, I talk about six rules for making new habits. And this has come from, yes, my clinical experience, but also the latest science and behaviour change. Rule number one is to start easy. You've got to start small. The reason you've got to start small is in behaviour change science, there's something called the motivation wave. Professor BJ Fogg talks about this a lot. So we often make our plans, our health plans and our goals at the peak of the motivation wave, when we're feeling, like, the start of January. Exactly, yeah. I'm going to do it. This is going to be my year, right? I'm going to go spinning for one hour, three times a week at the gym, and I'm going to keep doing it. You probably will for a week or two, because your motivation is really high. But when motivation falls, as it will in everyone, you will no longer do a behaviour if it's not easy to do. So they're like teammates. You've got to get motivation and ability in the right proportion. That's why everything in my book takes five minutes, because you almost take motivation out of the picture. You are planning, I am planning for people for when their motivation is low, which is a really, really important thing which most people don't do when they're thinking about lifestyle change. But the final bit is the trigger. For any behaviour to happen, you need a trigger. We'll come to that in just a second because I think that's super, super important. So if we just deal with the five minutes and why being easy is so important. I was at breakfast, I told you this yesterday, but I think it's really interesting for your listeners. Our behaviour, your behaviour, my behaviour, is constantly being changed and influenced by the world around us, even if we don't even, many of us don't even realise it's happening, but it is. So many people shop on Amazon. So when Amazon moved to one-click ordering about three or four years ago, the estimates are that their profits went up by 300 million dollars a year. Now, that's incredible. But it makes perfect sense. Amazon understand human behaviour. Before, you had to pick what you want in your shopping basket, go to the next page, put in your details, next page, expiry date, fourth page, confirm and place order. Every step there is, every bit of friction there is, is a reason for you to say no and back out. But now, before you blink, something's arriving the next day. They've made it super, super easy. Netflix do the same thing. Netflix, one episode rolls into the next one. That is not done by accident. That is done on purpose because if you have to go to the TV and flick something, and then you might realise, actually, I'm quite tired. It's 11:30, I'd better go to bed. I've got work tomorrow. But now, before you know it, the new episode started and you're right in it. So I'm not criticising those guys. They're using human behaviour for their businesses.

Dr Rupy: It's interesting because you see this behaviour change hacking in lots of different industries. So gambling is a typical one. When you go to a casino, you're not giving your money, you're giving chips. And the reason why is because you don't have that visceral connection with chips as you do with money. They remove clocks from casinos. They, you know, give you alcohol. They do everything to try and make you as comfortable as possible, even permitting smoking inside, which is unheard of now. Even the lighting is done on purpose in casinos. The lighting as well. Yeah, it's consistent. And you'll see it in a whole bunch of other ways as well. In positive ways as well as negative. Like, you know, if you grow up in a musical environment and your mum and dad and siblings are all music lovers, that's your norm. And so your behaviour thus sort of collaborates with everyone around you. It kind of fits in. But, you know, if your norm is a negative one, so, you know, like the Netflix example, for example, that can actually be detrimental, right?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, for sure. And I don't think people need to feel bad about these decisions that they're making because this is the rules of human behaviour. This is how we are wired. We take the path of least resistance most of the time. So that is why the best science and the best of my experience says that to make a change that lasts in the long term, you've got to start small. Now, look, you can literally try any, I think pretty much any health plan or any health and lifestyle book, right? If you pick it up and you follow everything in it, you will probably improve your health. I genuinely believe that. But what I'm interested in is, can you improve your health in January, but also in February, March, April, May, June, and beyond? Far too many things, I think, are, they're great if you can follow them, but in real life, people can't follow them. So the goal is for me is, how do you, how do you help people build that stuff in the future? And it sounds deceptively simple, right? But that chap I told you about, there's something I write about in the book called the ripple effect. So that one small change that he made, because he could do it consistently well, it leads to other changes. He now eats better. He now sleeps better. When he wakes up now, he does five minutes of breathing every morning. This is stuff that was unheard of a few years back for him. But he started small and that's why he was able to do it. But there's another component there, which I really like. And that is, you remember what I said about his body language? So the first time he comes back to see me when he hasn't done what he said he was going to do, you know, he feels a bit guilty. So he is reinforcing his belief that I can't follow health plans. I can't do health. But next time around, because I made it so easy for him, he starts doing it, he feels good about himself. He's now, he's now creating a new belief that, hey, I can stick to something. I can do something regularly for my health. And then he starts to increase it, not because I told him to, but because he wants to. So in so many levels, that behaviour change piece is also identity change.

Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. It's almost like there's two things going on there. He's stacking habits on top of each other. So you're getting more bang for your buck, but that's starting slow. And then also his identity and his belief in the kind of person he is has changed. He is now someone who exercises. He is now a gym goer or he's now a body weight strength advocate. And then you act in that same way. You therefore eat your broccoli and brown rice. You stand in a certain way. You converse with people who are also interested in the same activity. So it's, it's really interesting how you can have that ripple effect.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's, I don't know, it's, it, I think it is so powerful, but I do think we've been conditioned to think that health has got to be hard. Health has got to be about deprivation. Health has got to be about punishment. Who says? Health can be fun. I made that workout fun for him. So he actually looks forward to it, right? And actually the whole approach in my book is about making health fun. I've also, as well as trying to tackle time, I've also tried to inject fun into health. I say, why has health got to be this thing that we don't want to do? We can either enjoy our life or be healthy. And I'm trying to show people you can do both. In fact, I would say you have to do both because it's the best way to live that life that you want to lead. So, you know, I think, I think that case for me illustrates it quite beautifully. But can I just tell you the second tip? Well, there's many tips out there, but I think the tip I really think that's going to be valuable for your listeners is the thing I said about a trigger. So the third component to make a behaviour stick is you need a trigger. Now, what's a trigger? Well, a trigger could be that you think, that you remember. So I want to go to spinning class, let's say, is my behaviour that I want to engage in. And I've got to rely that I'm going to remember one evening after work, oh, I need to go to the gym and do cycling or spinning or whatever it is I want to do. That is a trigger that works. It's just the most unreliable trigger there is. So if you're relying on your memory to actually get you to do a behaviour, it may work a few times, but it won't be consistent. Now, there are other forms of triggers, but the very best trigger is to stick on your new behaviour or piggyback it on to an existing behaviour that you're doing without thinking. So an existing habit. So for me, I make a pot of coffee in the morning. I've always put a timer on for four minutes. It's just how I make my coffee. In those four minutes, I do a bodyweight strength workout. So for three years, I've never missed a day where I'm not doing a bodyweight strength workout because I've always had a hot drink every morning. It's so obvious when you think about it, but it's that consistency when done regularly. And I don't have to find time in my day. I don't have to motivate myself now. It's part of the routine. I put it on, put the timer on, I do my workout. Sometimes, you know, the time is out, I'm still doing the workout, I stop it. But you get the point. What did I do with my patient? I didn't explain to him behaviour change science. He didn't, I don't think he wants to know that. I don't think he needed to know that. But I sort of put it in there. But I didn't even know it at the time. I was just doing that on instinct. I said, do it in your kitchen. Kitchens, I think are the, I think kitchens are one of the best places to work out. Because we are in our kitchens once, twice, three times a day. I mean, you're in your kitchen a lot. So it's even better place to work out. But it means you can anchor it to one of your habits. And for people listening to this, if they think about their own life and their own behaviours that they've tried to engage with in the past, I would just ask them to reflect on those two things. Did you follow the rules on those two things? Did you start small or make it easy? And did you piggyback it onto something else? And I bet that for most people when they've not managed to make something stick, it's probably because they didn't follow one of those two rules.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think you can almost use the cues for changing maybe negative behaviours. So, for example, I had a patient the other day who was telling me about how they find social media just an absolute time suck. I mean, I find it as well. I think everyone has that issue these days, and I think more people are recognising the detriment to it. But instead of, instead of like trying to deprive themselves of it, instead, she stuck a behaviour to it, which is quite interesting. And now, like, as you're talking to me now, I can kind of understand the process and put some words to it and formulate exactly what was going on from a behavioural science point of view. But she was adding breathing exercises to when she looked at Facebook. So when she picked up Facebook, the first thing, ah, I'm looking at Facebook, I'm going to do some breathing exercises, because she realised Facebook makes her anxious, it makes her envious, it makes her feel low self-esteem because she's looking through all these different images or whatever. And I just found that was absolutely fascinating. I've since, and obviously since reading your book as well, since tried to instigate a little bit more of that in my clinical consultation because it's really, really intriguing.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, that is fascinating. But, you know, what's, what's interesting for me hearing that is she's also, yes, she's doing something to counteract what Facebook is doing to her while she's doing it. But, you know, we can talk about social media and yes, a lot of people are finding it a time suck and we're spending probably more time on it than we might want to. But you can do things around that. Like, let's say you don't want to give up social media because many people don't want to give it up. There are so many benefits. What I'm currently doing, and this is not really related to, you know, the book or anything like that. This is just a general thing that I'm, you know, it all, you know, it's all around the sort of, um, making habits. So I've been working on my squats, not like with weights, just my resting squat position for a little while now. And I've got quite a tight right ankle. So that's probably what's limiting me at the moment. I'm working on it because I also am practicing a bit of barefoot running technique as well. It's all kind of. Well, that is another story altogether. Potentially, yes. But what I'm now doing is if I go on Instagram in the evening, or social media, I'm squatting whilst I'm on it.

Dr Rupy: Oh, that's such a good tip. I'm definitely going to do that.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: 100%. So, like, the rule is at the moment, if you're going to be on there, you've got to be squatting. That's brilliant. That's. So, I'm trying to use habit change science to kind of ingrain, because I'm probably going to go on. And so, at least then whilst I'm on it, I'm actually also improving my flexibility, my mobility, and my hip function.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, do it. That's brilliant. It reminds me, so I've got a friend who are based in America, and they're all trying to, um, reduce their weight. And they've got this silly bet where if they go up by a pound or two, it's America, so they're in pounds, they go up by, I think it's like five pounds or something like that, they have to donate money to the opposing political party of their choice and vice versa to the others. And if they win, then I think they get to keep that. So there's like a negative behaviour, there's a negative aspect to it. But that honestly has kept them on track for so long. It's brilliant to hear.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: And that's great because they're creating a bit of accountability, they're creating a bit of a penalty. And it's fun as well. It's fun. And you know what? That may work for some people, it may not for others, but you can use, hopefully, hopefully people can hear some of these examples and hear threads in them and think, hey, you know what I could do? I could do this. Um, and, you know, habits, they are so, so important. We don't realise how much we are creatures of habit. There was a study from Duke University which showed that about 56% of what we do in any given day is not conscious thought, it's habit. So that means over half of what we do every day is habit. We, we, um, you know, we give our brains and our minds far too much credit. We're just walking around in routines that, you know, we're just playing the same track every day. And it's interesting. I actually went to study with BJ. I was very, very lucky to be invited onto his, he's pretty famous boot camp actually at his place in North California. So I went there in October. And I spent two days on his boot camp with 10 other people, literally delving deep into the science of habit change for two days and all his research. And for people who don't know who he is, Instagram was founded in his class. So it was a class assignment. So he, I think, I think the story is that he said that photo sharing apps are going to be big in the future. There's some new technology out which is going to make this, you know, very possible and accessible for people. I want you all to create an idea for an app. And he's still got the original mark sheet that he gave Instagram. And I think he gave it a very high mark. And I think this has got a very high chance of success. Yeah, so LinkedIn, I think used a lot of his research. A lot of companies that we engage with on a daily basis are using his research. And it's, it was great for me to, um, because I've seen a bit of his research over the years, but to actually spend two days with him. We hit it off big time. And what was really fascinating actually was that I gave him a copy of Feel Better in 5. And I said, hey, look, I'd love you to take a look at this. I've quoted you a little bit in it and see what you think. And he emailed me about a week later and very lucky he gave this as a testimony for the book. He said, Rangan, this is probably one of the best habit change programs I've ever seen before. It's deceptively simple, but remarkably effective. I've got to tell you, hearing that from someone as esteemed as Professor Fogg was, it was pretty humbling actually. And we had a little chat about it. And what was really interesting is that I figured a lot of this stuff out from seeing tens of thousands of patients. Like, I'm always watching and listening to patients. What is working and what's not working? Because for me, it's always been about, yeah, okay, people say you need to do that with a patient. But if I tell a patient to do that and they're not able to do it, it doesn't really matter whether that's the right thing to do or not. They're not doing it. And so for me, it's always been about learning what actually works. And as I say, consistently, it's when I've started people small, they can do it. I had a lady with who had really bad stress issues, which were making her hormonal symptoms a lot worse. She was sort of perimenopausal. And I remember trying to get her to unwind, and I couldn't get anything to land with her. And then I mentioned meditation at one point, but she was quite keen, but she goes, doc, I've tried that. I've tried meditating. Not for me.

Dr Rupy: It's a common, common issue, I think, with a lot of people, because it's definitely in the stratosphere that meditation is there, there's apps and stuff, but the number of people actually stick with it is relatively small.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: They don't do it. Yeah. And she had tried before. And so what I said to her, I said, okay, because I'm always trying to be creative and trying new approaches with patients. I said, okay, so you want to do meditation, but you think you can't do it. Fine. Let's make a deal now. What can you commit to doing on a daily basis for meditation? She said, I don't know. I said, what, 10 minutes? I'm not sure. I said, okay, fine. Five minutes? Maybe. I wasn't sure. I said, could you do one minute a day? She said, yeah, I could do one minute a day. I said, all right, let's start with one minute. She goes, you serious? I'm like, yeah, I'm serious. Let's start with one minute a day. But you now, we're making a deal together. I'll do it with you. Not with her in her house, but actually, I said, I will also do it. I'll do one minute a day. And find a time in your day where you can make it a routine. So maybe first thing in the morning or when you come home from work, but just do one minute. She goes, all right. And again, over about four to six weeks, she started doing one minute every day. That led to her naturally increasing it to two minutes. Two becomes five, five becomes 10. You know, two, three months later, she's meditating for 10 minutes a day. But the way she did it was not by starting with 10 minutes a day, she started with one minute a day. And, you know, I don't know how many of these listeners have heard or have made New Year's resolutions back in January. I mean, I certainly have. So, you know, what are yours?

Dr Rupy: Oh, wow. I'm visualising a lot more, actually, this year. Um, so I've made very similar to the example that you just made, actually, about meditation. So I'm a regular meditator now. I miss a few days here and there, but I tend to meditate most days. Um, but visualising exactly what I want to be and to believe myself to be as well is something that I'm working on this year quite a bit. Um, and and visualising exactly how that manifests with what I do in the Doctor's Kitchen. And this is why I was really excited about you coming on, man, because this podcast and everything I do is sort of like giving people awareness of the beauty of food, the incredible impacts of lifestyle. We go into yoga and meditation, we talk through the studies, we talk about the benefits of particular fats, for example. Uh, we talk about eating for your brain, arthritis, migraines, which are some episodes that are coming up. But what really, I think is the kicker, and this is why I think your book has done so well and it will continue to do well, is actually implementing that once you have the knowledge in itself. And adding all those extra habits to seamlessly as well. And I think that is unlocking the true secret to health.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, absolutely. I think you've nailed it. Um, I think, I think the knowledge isn't necessarily the problem. Right? There's a lot of knowledge out there. We're living in this era, aren't we, of information overload, actually. You can go and follow people on Instagram and read health blogs, and you can get a lot of really quite great information. But it can sometimes be a bit overwhelming. So I say we've got a lot of what to do, but not a lot of how to do it. And I think that's literally what I've tried to address with this book is, I want to give you tools on how you do this. Because giving you another book with more information, I don't think it's going to change people's ability to do it. So this is a doing book. Um, and I guess that's why, you know, that's why I'm so proud of it. And that's why I think it is resonating with so many more people than the first two, because I think it is that much more accessible for people. And it's funny, you know, one of my friends said to me, um, I guess it feels quite apt talking about this in your kitchen, but he said, Rangan, your book feels, he says, a, he feels like a very, very new style of health book, because I genuinely, I don't think there's a book out there like it in the sense that I don't think, I think this is quite a new idea of how to look at health. And he said, it feels like a recipe book for health. Right? Now, not a literal recipe book, like your books, which are also recipes for health, right? Or recipes for taste and health. But it's almost like there's a whole series of five-minute, what I call health snacks, but they're, they're kind of, you could call them recipes, and you choose the ones that you want that fit your lifestyle. So, um, yeah, it's, as I say, it's a practical plan for people to put this into practice.

Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I think definitely there's certain people who have the knowledge. There's definitely a huge number who don't. Like, you know, when I'm in A&E and I'm working in NHS GP, the number of people who just don't realise the impact of their habits, and it's not like smoking where it's on the pack. It can be sometimes hidden in foods that you don't realise. And that's, you know, something you had personal experience of on the TV program as well, you know, going through people's cupboards and looking at their lifestyles and what they do in the gym and work and stuff. Um, but certainly there are people who have the knowledge, who have the motivation, but they lack a plan. And I think that's what, I was going to ask, was it, um, intentional to make it a plan? So you have that sort of, uh, that the written out recipe for how you're going to implement what your chosen health snacks are.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, it was because, um, for me, it's always tricky when you write a book because, hey, it's difficult, right? But I really believe in a personalized approach. So, um, you know, my patients will all get a slightly different approach depending on their lifestyle and what problem they're coming in with. Even a person with the same condition or symptom as somebody else might get a different approach. And so it's like, well, how do you do that then? How do you give a book to people and a plan that's going to help a wide variety of different people who've got different lifestyles? And I wanted to give a plan, so it was, it was really, really simple for people, but I also wanted to allow personalization because I don't believe you can give the same plan to everybody and it's going to work for everybody. But by making this plan in this kind of simple structure, like I've split up health into three sections, mind, body, and heart. And I've said to people, you pick one snack or one of these five-minute health recommendations from each section. You pick the one that you like or the one that resonates with you most. I think there's about 40 or 50 options, but you only have to choose three. And you do the same three every day, or I say five days a week. I say, give me five minutes of your time, three times a day, five days a week. That is the plan. It is so, so easy and simple. And I think if I'm honest, the only problem with it is that it sounds too simple. Honestly, I think that's the problem with it. People think that's a gimmick. Yeah, it's like, what's that going to really do? You know, I got a, I think I was reading my Instagram this morning on the way here, and someone, one of the bodyweight strength workouts in the book, in the middle section, the body section, um, is called the classic five. And for me, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what are the best five bodyweight exercises that give you a complete workout, but don't require any equipment. Because again, every workout in the book, whether it's yoga, whether it's intervals, whether it's dancing, whether it's strength, require no equipment. They don't require you to get changed. They don't require you to join a gym. Again, Amazon one-click ordering, I've removed all the obstacles. So there's really no reason not to do it. But she started doing the classic five workout. And she, I think it's on my last post, she said, Dr. Chatterjee, I'm aching today. I can't believe five minutes can have that much impact. And I'd flip it the other way. And this is how I sometimes explain it to people. We don't think of good habits in the same way as bad habits. So if I asked you to drink a glass of Coke, full fat, full sugar Coke, for five continuous minutes, day after day after day, right? Well, we sort of understand that probably within a day or two, we're going to feel our teeth are not going to feel great. We're going to feel a bit tired, a bit moody, maybe our sleep will go off. We understand how quickly bad habits end up. But somehow we don't apply the same logic to good habits. We think, um, a good habit, you know, a workout only counts if it's an hour. When you've got some fancy equipment on, or some fancy gym gear, the latest Sweaty Betty outfit, right? You know, that's when working out counts. But it's not true.

Dr Rupy: We don't respect the magnitude of those good habits and how they can have those incredible impacts. It reminds me of one of my favorite books, um, called The One-Minute Workout. And it's a fantastic book. I forget the author now, but he's a researcher, Canadian guy. I know it. I have it. Gibble, Martin Gibble, is it? Martin Gibble. It's something like that. So I'll link to it in the podcast notes. But, um, it's one of my favorite books because when I first looked at it, I thought, this is a gimmick. This has got to be a gimmick. And then I realised, oh, no, hold on, he's a researcher. And then he actually broke down why interval training in particular can improve cardiorespiratory fitness and actually how a one-minute interval workout could be super, super effective, as effective as jogging for 10 minutes straight. And so though that adds some like, you know, credibility to the impact of five-minute workouts. And also, like, you know, I've, I've, it's funny you say this because when I was training in Brighton, I used something very similar, um, to the one-minute workout or the five-minute workout. I said to the guy, I was like, look, I know you're trying to go to the gym, I know you're trying to lose weight, you're struggling for years, you talked about his diet, we talked about all these things, we tried to optimize that. And the regularity of him moving just wasn't there. And I remember saying to him, look, there's a one-minute workout, you can do that, just start off slow. And then thereafter, four weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks after that, slow improvements, not massive, but slow, steady improvements to it. And that was motivating for his belief in it. Because like you said, it's not about the workout, it's not about the weight lost, it's about the person's belief and their belief system in themselves and what they're capable of.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, and then in, and then the sort of extension of that is, it's about self-worth. Because if you give yourself five minutes a day for your mind, five minutes a day for your body, and five minutes a day for your heart, what you're doing is showing yourself on a daily basis, I am worth it. My mental health is worth five minutes, my physical health is worth five minutes, my emotional health is worth five minutes. And again, the way I've, the way I've started describing it this week, because I've realised that common questions are coming up at all the events. And I say, well, look, think about toothbrushing. Right? So most people, I hope who are listening to this, are brushing their teeth for, let's say, I hope around two minutes in the morning and two minutes at night. They don't need willpower and motivation to do it. They do it every day, day in, day out. It is literally a habit. They do the same thing at the same time every day. So that's how it's become a habit. So that means we're all giving ourselves four minutes of dental hygiene a day. So is our dental health, as important as it is, is it more important than our physical health, mental health, and emotional health? Now, I cannot answer that for an individual person. For someone, it might be. But if you think it's not, or you think there's other things have equal importance, well, if you're giving yourself four minutes a day of dental hygiene, but you're not giving the same amount of time to those other three areas, what do your actual daily actions really say? And I'm not trying to have a go at people, right? I'm just trying to reframe it a little bit and going, well, mental health problems are on the rise. We know it's a major, major problem. I think is it one in four people now in any given year are going to be diagnosed with a mental health problem? That's what I think that's what the Mind charity say. Which is, I mean, that is an alarming statistic. And so I, all I'm asking people to do in the book is say, look, the mind section is all about five-minute things that you can do for your mental health, whether it's five minutes of breathing, five minutes of journaling, five minutes of meditation, five minutes of nature, five minutes of accessing flow state, like painting or drawing or colouring in. Just choose one, but I think we owe it to ourselves, whether we suffer with a mental health problem or not, we're all subject to this busy, fast-paced 21st century life. You know, I say 21st century living is bombarding our minds. And I'm saying, give yourself five minutes a day on a dedicated practice for your mind. And then I say, do five minutes a day for your body. Body's about moving more. We all know we should be moving more. Every January, there's a new headline saying, physical inactivity, leading cause of death worldwide, you know, weights are getting worse. I get that. Again, more and more knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, but we're not moving enough. But how do you change that? That's the key. How do you change it? I say, well, give yourself five minutes of dedicated movement a day. And again, it can be whatever you want. But I've made it super, super easy.

Dr Rupy: I think that you've hit a really good point there because a lot of what we focus on is highlighting the symptoms of the issue. So the obesity causes cancer headline pops to mind there where it's not really offering people who might be suffering with weight issues, who might have suffered for years, some of which are definitely not their fault. It's a disease at the end of the day. But that isn't giving anyone the opportunity to change that. It's just again, compounding the belief, the negative self-belief in that person. And so really what would have been a better headline is move for five minutes a day, you know, or or or improve your mental health by doing these five activities for five minutes a day. And I think loneliness, um, I went to the conference this year, uh, last year now, 2019 on, uh, mental health, opiate addiction, the loneliness crisis that is sweeping across America and the UK. And again, it's focusing on the symptom of the problem, opiate addiction in the advice in the example of the US, loneliness and depression rates in the UK, for example. But really what is the root cause? And I think it's exactly like you said, we don't spend enough time on mental health and self-care when it comes to mental health because it's not as fashionable as putting on your sweaty betty and going to the gym.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Exactly. And actually that, that's, um, exactly why the final component of the book is called the heart section. So, just to be super clear, right, for people listening, it's, there's three sections, right? Everything's got five-minute health snacks in, but there's mind, body, and heart. And I'm saying you should do one from each every day. Mind, mental health, body, moving your body physically. But the last part, heart, really plays into what you just said, heart, I think is the most important part of my book. And I'll tell you why. Heart, you learned in medical school, just as I did, the heart is a physical organ that pumps blood around the body. But heart's got another meaning. Right? Poets, songwriters, artists have been talking about our hearts for years. And that meaning is what it means to be a human. It's connection, connection with our friends, connection with our partners, connection with our work colleagues, connection with ourselves. And we're missing that connection these days. As you say, loneliness is on the rise. We're missing that. We're living these ultra-connected worlds where we're digitally connected, but what we're missing is real-life human connection. And this is toxic for our health. Loneliness, one study from three years ago suggested that the feeling of being lonely is as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Other studies have shown that people who feel lonely die, are 50% more likely to die prematurely, 30% more likely to have a heart attack or a stroke. This stuff changes you biologically, physiologically. But we're walking around, you know, still overemphasizing, I think, not overemphasizing is the wrong word. We're focusing on, you know, food and movement, which is so, so important, but we're forgetting about the other components of health. And I actually think when you get heart right, when you get connection in your life, I actually think that mind and body start to take care of themselves because often it's that lack of connection we feel that actually leads us to engage in those behaviours. Sit, you know, we sit on the sofa feeling a bit lonely. So we're drinking a bit more alcohol than we want. Or we'll mindlessly scroll Instagram for two hours because we're missing that connection and that's trying to fill that void for people. And I'm saying that with utter compassion. I'm not criticising. I'm saying, I think we've got a loneliness problem. So I think there's the most health snacks in this section. There's about 10 or 15 heart health snacks, which are about connection. Five minutes of connection a day. My favorite one, probably in the book, is the heart snack that I do on a daily basis when I'm at home, and it's called the tea ritual. And it's what I do. I do with my patients. I do with myself. And the whole idea of the tea ritual is that modern relationships are under strain. We're busy, we're burnt out. Even when we are with the people we love or the people that mean the world to us, often we're distracted. We're there, we're physically in the same space, but we're actually on our phone, we're actually sort of half thinking about an email. And this is, I think everyone can resonate with that as well. Like we're all doing it. I mean, I still do it. Like it happens, right? We do it to other people and it's probably been done to ourselves. And we know how it feels when we're on the receiving end of that. You're trying to talk to someone, but you know they're slightly distracted. So the tea ritual, the way I do it at home is once our kids are in bed, and they're nine and seven at the moment, so normally by eight, they're in bed and asleep. We come downstairs and in the kitchen, we'll make a pot of mint tea in a nice pot, so we make a bit of a ritual around it. And for five minutes, we sit there without our devices, we have to catch up with each other. It sounds so simple, right? But I tell you, since we started doing that regularly, it has transformed our relationship. We feel closer, there's more intimacy there, we feel just more connected from doing that. And I've been recommending that with my patients for a long time now. And one patient recently told me, doc, I think that tea ritual has saved my marriage. And I think 20 years ago, we didn't need someone to put this in a book. This was part of life. Some of this is frankly common sense. But we're not doing it. And I'm saying instead of making it a big thing that you have to have some huge, you know, big dinner out with a romantic and candles. Hey, nothing against that if you want to do that. But what about just five minutes of daily connection? Think about dental hygiene, four minutes a day. Well, actually, is your relationship not worth four minutes, five minutes a day of the same care and attention? It's just another way of looking at it. But you know, there's, there's a lot of heart snacks you're going to love. There's gratitude practices, there's about three or four of those. Um, there is, you know, one I really like the one called the daily pleasure, which is five minutes a day of doing something you love. That's about connection not to other people, connection to yourself.

Dr Rupy: It's amazing how, because I, I did my gratitude stuff where I started sharing it at least, it's something that I do daily and I have done for years and years now. But it's amazing how many people that connected with actually. It's just one extra thing I do as part of all the food stuff. But it's so impactful. And actually, when you look at the research, it's, it's incredible just how much conjuring that gratitude on a daily basis permeates positive emotions throughout the rest of your evening and actually improves things like your sense of purpose and your and your sleep. Um, and that's why like, you know, uh, when I wrote Eat to Beat Illness, every section, yes, was eat to beat, uh, eat for your brain, eat for your immunity and stuff, but it also had that lifestyle section to remind people of the importance of every aspect. And one of those massive aspects is social cohesion, community, and spirit. Like, it sounds, I would have never imagined myself saying this to a fellow clinician on a podcast when I qualified from med school, right? Like over 10 years ago. It sounds a bit soft, doesn't it? It sounds very soft. But actually, you know, particularly in our modern environment, like you said, we didn't, we wouldn't have had to talk about this like 20, 30 years ago. But in our modern environment that has become increasingly disconnected, and we have a psychogenic environment, I believe now, in the very much the way we have an obesogenic environment. Um, we have a psychogenic environment that warrants simplicity and actually warrants reminders, small reminders that actually push us towards a positive mindset.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, 100%. The research on that is absolutely there. And I agree, what we recommend to people, what we have to do ourselves as an individual, as a society, evolves depending on what the problems of the time are. So in the 20th century, maybe we didn't need to know all this stuff. Because it was ingrained within society. But in the 21st century, you do. And that's why I think it's about, you know, not using, you know, people say, is this, you know, you're a doctor, is this what medicine is? I'm like, yeah, for me, it is. It may not have been in the 20th century, but this is what 21st century medicine looks like. It's about for me, looking at the various aspects of our lives and our lifestyles that impact the way that we feel. And you get it, mate. It's so clear that you get it. You know, you, you write books on, you know, with some beautiful and tasty recipes in, and they are absolutely fantastic. But you also get, don't you, that it's not just food. Food is a very, very important component, but there are other factors as well. And, um, yeah, I just think, you know, I've got, I've got such big plans for this idea, you know, five minutes three times a day, because as I mentioned yesterday at that event, um, I had two months away from the book, and as I was reading, when I came back to read the audio book, I really enjoyed reading it. I thought, okay, this is, got a nice flow, and it's kind of what I wanted it to say. And I started to see all the possibilities. I thought, well, this as an ideology is something as an individual level, I hope the whole population start thinking about and applying. You know, at the end of each day, have I done five minutes on my mind, five minutes on my body, five minutes on my heart? If I haven't, can I do something about that? I think if we all did that, we'd have a happier and healthier society within weeks. I'd love to see it in companies. I'd love, you know, there's a lot about corporate well-being now. Um, what about that as a simple idea for your staff? And the big one that excites me is schools. I'm thinking, so many schools and teachers have contacted me over the last few years to say, Dr. Chatterjee, we love your ideas. We really see the value for them in schools. Can you help us get them into schools? And again, as you know, mate, it's time. It's like, I would love to, and I try as much as I can, but it's just a case of what can you fit in. But I don't think anything has been more perfect in, in, in than this current plan from anything I've done at least, because the two biggest obstacles teachers will tell you is, we don't have time and we don't have money. Well, I've taken both of them off the table. Nothing in the book takes more than five minutes, and pretty much everything, right, I would say 99% of it is free. It is completely accessible to everyone. There's only one smoothie in the book that you could argue, you know, but I think I made it pretty accessible. But you can make an argument, that's fine. I accept that. Everything else is free. And so I would love, can you imagine, I don't you don't have kids yet, right? But for me, it's kind of like, yeah, for me, I think, you know, my kids are nine and seven, and I'm thinking, wouldn't it be amazing if every student in the land, their teacher and their school, every day thought, have we done something for five minutes today for their mental well-being? Have we done something for five minutes a day for their physical well-being? And have we done something for five minutes a day for their emotional well-being? I think it's just such a, a beautifully simple, um, concept that can be used. And yesterday, I got a comment from a teacher who likes my five-minute breath counting exercise in the mind section. And she said, Dr. Chatterjee, I started doing it with the students today, and they love it. So we're going to do it every day. That's brilliant. It gives me a lot of excitement that, because, you know, they don't need the book for that. They don't need to buy anything. They can just take it and start using it. Absolutely. And that's what makes me excited. And then I think, but, but again, I don't want people just to focus on one area. Do the breathing, do some physical activity, maybe the daily mile or whatever a school can do. But make sure you do something about connection. Maybe add a bit of gratitude on. Maybe after lunch break every day, just before they start the afternoon, maybe they do a quick, even a two-minute gratitude practice. Can you imagine if that was in the curriculum at schools?

Dr Rupy: Exactly. Yeah. It's, I'm seeing parallels with how like Joe has gone around this country and like got kids moving and doing like, you know, hit training exercises for 10 minutes in their playground. It's accessible. They can watch videos for free on YouTube. All you need is the enthusiasm and the buy-in from the teachers themselves. And that's what you have in bundles. And it's, it's incredible, man. I, I, I definitely foresee a positive future with this book impacting a number of different people. What I did want to ask you about is a little bit of background on podcasting. So, you're currently number one podcaster in the country at the moment, which is incredible. Very, very well deserved. I've been podcasting now for a little over a year and a half, probably about a year properly, um, but like in dribs and drabs. I think you launched before me, actually, when you started. Late 2017, I did like six episodes and then I kind of just did it in dribs and drabs. But, um, what have you found, uh, different about your podcasting style? Because it's, it's like what made me think of this is when we were talking about the tea ritual, where you're having a conversation, but you're thinking about something else in the mind. And when I'm podcasting, right, and I don't know if you have the same thing as well, but you're, you're constantly thinking about the listener's experience, the next question you want to ask, engaging with the person and being present with the person in front of you. It's quite a few things. And there's some podcasters that do completely different podcasts that I try and learn from in terms of like their technique, because this is an art you need to master and you're constantly learning new things. So I just wanted to ask about your experience, that's for.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, you know, so I think it's, you know, it's fascinating to discuss with a fellow podcaster. So, first of all, podcasting is probably one of the favorite things that I do. I love it. Um, but my approach has really evolved, I think, over two years. I think we're almost at two years, I think in about a week's time since the first episode came out. And my approach and the style of the podcast has evolved a lot. And I think initially, it was very much a case of, okay, there's this guest, this is their work. Okay, I want to cover these topics. And so it was a case of, okay, how can we have that conversation and bring out those topics? But I've realised more and more, particularly over the last year, as my conversations have got longer, longer but more popular, which is actually quite an interesting thing, which we can talk about, which I find super fascinating. Um, I've realised that what my podcast is about is about an authentic conversation. That is it. My podcast is about an authentic conversation. The information you get comes, I think, as a side effect of a quality conversation. And it feeds into what we've just said about connection and heart. I think we are starved of real authentic human connection. And so what I try and do with every guest is connect. And I've learned to trust myself more. So instead of stressing, and I do sometimes before, especially if I've not managed to research enough, and you think, wow, we put this in a month ago, I've not managed to get through everything that I wanted to. I've learned to trust myself and go, Rangan, you know how to have a conversation. You've been seeing patients for God knows how many years, and you've constantly, you're talking to people. A job as a GP, you're talking all day. You're communicating with people. I said, okay, you know how to have a conversation. So I've gone into much more podcast now without notes, without anything. I sometimes will have something in case, you know, you always want somewhere to go in case you get stuck or in case you lose it and you're not quite sure where to go next. But more often than not, I'm not using it. I'm trusting myself. And I have found that if I trust myself and stay present and focused, the conversation just flows. But you have to trust yourself. Because you've got, you've got to get over the fact that, well, what happens if I don't have anything to say?

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. You have to sort of like conjure that belief that everything's going to be fine in your own identity as a podcaster or as a host.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: And you know how to have a conversation. Right? Because when you're in A&E, or when you're with your doctors, in your GP work, or whether you're seeing a mate, you know how to have a conversation, just as I do. And so, I guess it depends what people want their podcast to be. I've realised for me that that quality conversation is key. And then I'm getting something out of it as well. I tell you the other thing I've realised recently also, coming on this connection theme, I find my weekly podcast a form of therapy. Right? Because some of my conversations now are two hours long. And there's very few times in my life anymore where I sit with someone for two hours without looking at a phone, without being distracted. But then with a podcast guest, literally nothing there for two hours, we are connecting. And I think, wow, like I'm, I'm having to be mindful. So that's a practice of mindfulness. I'm not saying everyone should do it, but it's a practice of mindfulness because we tend to just roll them and let them go. And the other thing we do is I have very, very minimal edits on the show. So I want authenticity. So if someone fluffs something or there is a bit of a pause, we just keep it in. Because that's what real life is. And I actually think the public and the world is craving authenticity at the moment. And so as much as possible, I want to bring authenticity to the podcast. And I actually, I was in LA in October. I was promoting my last book, The Stress Solution, which came out there. And I went on, um, the Rich Roll podcast for the second time. I love Rich's podcast. I think it's brilliant. And I went to his house into his studio, and we spoke for about two hours 30 minutes on his podcast. And literally, with like a break for some water, we flipped the mics, and then I spoke for two and a half hours with him on my podcast, which I think comes out next week. And at the end of it, we just thought, we've just spent five hours talking to each other across a table with no distraction. I'm like, that's, that's frankly incredible. When do you get the chance to do that?

Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. I've never really thought about it like that because if I think about the conversations I have with my friends in regular life, not with with mics there, it's not this intense. You always have distractions. You have your phone, you're watching a program, you're doing an activity. We usually surround the activity of seeing a friend of yours with an activity. It's with dinner or it's with coffee or it's with like a sporting event or something you're watching on TV. It always has to be attached to something. It can never just be like, hey, let's meet up. Yeah. Just and just talk. Especially for guys. I think guys struggle with that. We have to have a reason to meet up.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: 100%. So, but you know what? If you'd asked me this question a year ago, I don't think I would have answered it like that. This has been an evolution for me.

Dr Rupy: Well, this is why I wanted to ask you because I think I'm an avid listener of your podcast and I think you've certainly evolved over the last year to having, yes, longer form conversations, but it's, it's, it's definitely, you could tell it's genuine. You're, you know, you're meandering around topics, but it just flows.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: It just flows. And that's what I'm looking for. And, you know, ultimately, I've realised that the only way I will keep doing a podcast every week because, I mean, it is such hard work. It's a lot of work. I don't think, I honestly don't think people who don't create know what it's like. I mean, Rich, Rich Roll said to me, he says, Rangan, I can't believe you're doing a weekly podcast and seeing patients and writing books. He says, all I do is my podcast. That's my full-time job. So it is incredibly time-consuming, very rewarding. Um, but I will only continue doing it as long as I'm getting something out of it. And I get a lot out of it. And I'm really lucky as the popularity's grown, it's getting easier and easier for me to attract, you know, guests who I may never have ever known or they never would have spoken to me without that platform. So I feel very lucky now that I get to have and pick the brains of all these incredible people. But it's interesting. I remember when I started, I heard in the UK, they said, you know, podcast have got to be 30 to 40 minutes. That's the length of a commute. That's what they've got to be. And I get that. I'm not against that, right? There are some brilliant 30, 40 minute short podcasts, and that is completely fine. I just found for me, for what I wanted out of it, it wasn't really doing it for me. I, I enjoyed it, but I much prefer the longer ones. And I often, I really find the second halves are much better than the first half. But you can't, you can't fast track and get there because you've built up a bit of trust.

Dr Rupy: 100%. You've got to build that rapport. You've got to feel each other out. You've got to, you know, especially if it's someone that you haven't come across before, you don't know personally, it, it goes, it has to go through a whole bunch of different hurdles and barriers, and then, and then it goes, and it's.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: And I've also expanded out now who I interview. So I, I, you know, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't, actually the word interview I don't like. I have conversations on my podcast. Um, but I almost would go as far as saying it's not a health and well-being podcast anymore. It's a live your best life podcast because, you know, the episode on New Year's Day, which, which I think now is the most popular one ever, even though it's only been out for two weeks, has gone ballistic. It was two hours and 40 minutes. Now they usually aren't that long. But I spoke to John McAvoy, this incredible guy. I don't know if you know his story. It's just incredible his story from prison to two life sentences getting out. And literally after two hours and 40 minutes, I thought we were just warming up. And people who heard it said, Rangan, I looked at two hours 40 minutes, I thought never. And I started listening and I literally couldn't stop. But so I try and go as far as there is oxygen in the situation. Although I think that one stopped because I think my kids were back home from school. And I thought I'd better stop now. But there will be a part two of it. But anyway, look, I don't know if that answers some of your queries, but.

Dr Rupy: It's brilliant. Yeah, yeah. I think, I think podcasting is a very individual thing. I think people have to find what works for them. Look, what you're doing is really incredible. So I've never been on a podcast before and been cooked for. It's brilliant. And it also, it also means that this is going to have a different quality of conversation than had we not done that, had I just rushed in and we've been straight on the mic.

Dr Rupy: Totally. Yeah. It's exactly why like, so initially I wanted to emulate a Saturday Kitchen environment, right? Where it's my favorite show. I love it. I watch it every single week. Matt Tebbutt's an absolute genius at having a conversation live on TV, cooking complicated recipes, whilst engaging an A-lister who's right in front of him over like seven or eight minutes. It's insane. And like, I don't think people give him enough credit for it because he's an absolute master. Like Jamie Martin was great, um, and he did it for years and years, but Matt Tebbutt has just like, I think taken it to another level. He's really, really good. And so I initially wanted to emulate that, but what as a byproduct of me genuinely trying to welcome the guest into the environment of the Doctor's Kitchen, give them something to eat, uh, you know, um, relax, sit on the sofa, have some food, you know, just chill out because it's, it's busy out there, you know, coming from London or whatever, it's, it's, it's hectic. And particularly if they're like, you know, doing book tours or whatever, it just, it just mellows everything. It just puts everything on a lower gear and then everyone can just relax. And that's why the conversations I've had, you know, with a whole bunch of different people have sort of just flowed super easily.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, and maybe having, having been on the receiving end of that now, I can totally see why because I did come here. I'm on the fourth day of, you know, frankly grueling days of interviews. Grueling in the sense that I'm very lucky to be able to do it. I'm not complaining, but I'm very mentally fatigued at the moment. And when I come here, I was like, oh, well, I get to hang out with Rupy, which is great. So I get to hang out with a friend. But actually just doing the food and sitting down and eating it and having that warm feeling in your stomach, I've got to believe that it lends itself to a different form of conversation. So you, you figured out what works for you. And it's kind of totally on brand with everything else that you do, right? It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. But I say I've been on loads of podcasts, no one has ever done that for me before. So, mate, I love that.

Dr Rupy: Honestly, honestly, it's a lovely thing. Yeah, no, I'm glad. I'm glad we've given you a homely environment to just chill out and relax because I know it's been super grueling for you, uh, this week in particular. I mean, it's, your schedule's been insane. I wanted to end with, um, just asking you three things, actually, because you're a returning guest. You've been here, so your third time now.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Third time, yeah.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, third time. Third time. Um, so we've got a question for each time. A question for each time. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I want to ask you three things. I borrowed this from another podcaster who's an incredible interviewer as well. Um, Tim Ferriss, everyone knows him, is one of the most prolific podcasters of all time. Um, and it's interesting because some people really like Tim Ferriss for a number of reasons. Some people really do not, but you can't fault his ability to interview. He is a prolific interviewer, and I see the same future for you, actually, because he, he delves into so many different subject matters. And I think it's just indicative of him as a person and just how intellectually curious he is and, you know, always curious. But, um, I want to ask you three things. What have you changed your mind about over the last five, 10 years? Uh, what are you excited about going forward? And we've already talked about your books, so you can't talk about that, even though I'm very excited about that for you. And what are your aims for the future? Any, any sort of, any sort of, um, uh, question you want to do for it? So, what, what have you changed your mind about? What are you excited about? And what are your aims for the future?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Okay, so what I've changed my mind about, um, I'm acutely aware that I'm in your kitchen at the moment as I'm saying this. But I think 5, 10 years ago, I really thought nutrition was everything. And whilst I still think it's very important, I've realised that it's just one piece of a very big puzzle. And I've also realised that actually, some of the time, we use food to deal with our emotions. And so actually, simply knowing what's different and how we should change our food habits doesn't necessarily lead to change because if you're feeling lonely, let's say, you might eat sugar in front of the telly in the evening because it's serving a role for you. So I think the biggest change for me as a person and as a doctor has been the importance of our emotional health. I don't think I realised, maybe I was too young to realise, maybe this also comes with a bit of life experience and having kids and losing my dad. You know, I don't know, but I've realised more and more now, and I see it with all my patients, that the voice you have in your head, how you see yourself, how you talk to yourself, your upbringing, all these things play a role, play a far bigger role in our health than I think we possibly realise. And that's kind of where I'm going more and more with what I like to talk about and what I like to do with my patients.

Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. I think definitely the role of nutrition, um, is certainly important and it's, it's sort of, um, my, uh, my bias, I would say, um, and it's definitely a motivating factor and it hooks people in. Um, but often, and I've found in this in my clinical experience as well, there are some deeper things that people need to address and it expresses itself through food.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: But at the same time, just, I would agree with you on nutrition, and I would say for me, it's almost unfair to say I've changed my mind on that because my gateway to good health and to working on my emotions was via my plate. So I, the first thing I did was radically transform how I ate. And I started to feel better. And that then rippled into other areas. So maybe had I not done that, I wouldn't have been able to, I wouldn't have been in a state to start accessing that deep emotional work.

Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. It's like a hook to get you in. And, and that's why I'm always like, you know, quite vocal about not using food and nutrition solely as a tool for health. It's something that we certainly need to embrace and it deserves a special, special part of our lives because it's something we do often, we connect with it, we've shared experiences, we, you know, share cultural values through it as well. And it's, it's definitely important, but it's not the be all and end all. And I think, you know, everything else, particularly emotional and spiritual health that is perhaps less known about with conventional trained doctors like ourselves, deserves a lot more importance. And I think you've done that fantastically. What are you excited about?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: What am I excited about? Um, man, where to start? How long have you got? I'm excited about all kinds of things. Uh, professionally, I'd say I'm excited about, um, you know, just keeping going, trying to empower more people, give out more information, you know, record more exciting podcasts. Um, and also, as I've already mentioned, what really, really excites me at the moment, I don't quite know how I will do this because I'm pretty much flat out. I'd love to try and get this idea of the book into schools. That really excites me. It's something I'm thinking a lot about. Um, again, I don't know if I'll have the time and resource to do that. Um, but certainly I'm talking about it a lot and I'm hoping teachers and, um, education councils get in touch and they actually start to take it and run with it. Um, so that's probably what I'm most excited about from a professional level, for sure.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. And your aims for the future? We already know your huge goal, which is the 100 million people, which I'm sure you're on your way to. Uh, but transforming the health of 100 million people is like your ultimate goal. What are your other aims for the future? Not that that wasn't big enough.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Um, other aims, I think just to keep evolving as a human being, keep figuring out my own emotions, keep, you know, I do, I'm not a huge fan of the word therapy, but I do a lot of emotional work. I'm always trying to unpeel layers of the onion and try and figure out who am I at my core? Not who am I, you know, with all the conditioning of society and friends and family members around me. When you strip all that away, who am I actually? And I know that sounds pretty deep and spiritual, and I guess it, I guess it is. But it's kind of where I'm at at the moment. I'm really, this started for me when my, when my dad died. I really was on, I've been on for almost seven years now this journey to find out who am I. And actually it's no coincidence that as I've been on that journey is when my career in the public has started to flourish because it's all been part of the same journey. I want to keep going because when I understand myself better, I think I can help more people. I think I'm a better father. I think I'm a better husband. And I guess for me to do that, I need to get better and better at saying no. Right? I'm already a lot better than I was two years ago, but the problem is for me is that the demands on my time, the demands on my time are accelerating at a faster pace than my ability to say no. So my ability to say no is going up, but the demands are going up at a faster rate. So relatively, it doesn't feel like it. So I think if I was to summarize it in one, one, one sentence, I think I need to and I would like to work a lot more on my ability to say no.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I, you know what, that really does resonate with me. I'm learning a lot more about the ability to say no or the, the need to say no, I think. Um, and I think you've described it beautifully with the accelerating, you know, demands on your time. And particularly for you, you know, as a busy husband and a father of two, you know, it's, it's, it's incredible like the demands on you at the moment. What, what I'm interested in is the therapy aspect, actually. So when did you start your therapy? This is just for me personally. When did you start your therapy journey and what does that look like now? Is it something that you do weekly or?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: Yeah, so it's, it's interesting because it's such a broad term, it can mean so many different things to different people. So I've been seeing a guy, um, who started off actually, um, you know, back in the day when he used to have back problems, I used to see him for some myofascial release work. So he'd do some body work on me. But our relationship has really evolved over a number of years. And he's trained in a therapy called IFS, Internal Family Systems, which is when you see your, your body and your makeup as a series of different parts. And you try and process those parts and you do various exercises. For example, so it's not too kind of, you know, theoretical. Um, at one of these, um, sessions that we did, I went into this sort of state of mind and I was taken back to, not I was taken, he doesn't take you there, things just come up. And I came, something came up from when I was I think 12 or 13 at secondary school, when my perception of it was that I was chucked by my mates. And so I felt really upset and I was crying. I was in a big secondary school and I sort of went back to the classroom and sort of morphed to another group of friends. And why that's been so interesting is that moment really helped me understand, along with other things, why I've always been such a people pleaser, why I've never put my own needs first, why I've always, you know, done things for other people at the expense of myself. And it's something I've worked, since I've started to get that understanding of various things of where that's come from, I've managed to change that. So I, I'd like to think I'm still a caring person doing things for other people, but actually I put myself first now. It was harder at first, but now it's not that hard. I'm like, no, actually, I'm not going to do that because yes, it will keep everyone else happy, but it won't keep me happy. So, I mean, that's just a very simple, short example, but there's more, there's been more aha moments like that for me. Now, I don't go regularly. I will try and do a daily practice of meditation, which helps me tap into those things. But every few months, I'll book another session. I'm quite in tune with it now. So I'll book in when I know that there's something brewing up. Um, but I guess another little tip for people on that is as part of that process, and this is now getting super spiritual, mate. But it's about anytime I get triggered, I'm seeing that as an opportunity to learn something. So instead of going, oh God, that person's done this, you know, what a, what a B or what a C, right? I'm like, okay, why has that triggered you? And I'm actually using social media now to help with therapy. I'll tell you what I mean by that. You know what it's like, mate, when you post something and someone wants to make a bit of a snidy comment or have a go at you or insinuate something that you clearly didn't mean. And, you know, in the past, I might have got slightly agitated or felt a bit insecure about it or felt attacked. And actually now, generally speaking, I don't. I actually feel pretty calm and I look at, okay, why is that triggering you? Because for me, it's almost like a mirror. If I was totally secure in who I was and what I was doing, what someone's saying to me shouldn't really bother me. Now, I'm not perfect. I'm not a saint, right? So I'm not quite there yet, but I'm a lot closer to there, wherever there is, than a few years ago when sometimes it would really upset me. And so I'm now looking to look at friction in my life as an opportunity for growth. And I think social media for me is exactly what I do with it. And I'm like, why is that person triggering me? What's the issue going on in me why that's allowed me to? So instead of looking outside for answers, I'm actually looking more internally.

Dr Rupy: That I think is a really nice way to end our conversation here because I think that's definitely going to help me a lot. Um, uh, from a therapy point of view, because I, you know, I've had therapy when I was a lot younger and I think like you, it kind of, I did it intermittently and I worked on myself and I did meditation and, you know, those experiences, particularly being in the media now, like having a public facing image, um, can be triggering. And I think what it does is it highlights your own insecurities in exactly the way that you've beautifully described there. And when you understand that, you can actually control what your reaction is to the trigger, to the cue, whatever. And I think that's, yeah, I think that's definitely going to help me personally. I think it's going to help a lot of people do. I'm so proud of you and, uh, I can't wait to, to see what else you come up with this, uh, with the Feel Better in 5 and, um, yeah, man, all power to you, dude.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee: All right, mate. Thanks for having me.

Dr Rupy: I really hope you enjoyed that. I think you can tell why he's one of the most influential doctors in the UK and he's one of the leaders as well. Something that, you know, we've chatted about quite a lot. I mean, I speak to him most months, if not weeks, and, um, we're constantly in communication about how to better deliver the messages that we want to promote. Um, and I think his books are absolutely fantastic. Like I said, you can check them out at drchatterjee.com. Check him out on social media as well, Dr. Chatterjee, @DrChatterjee. Uh, all the links for the books are going to be on the website, the doctorskitchen.com/podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do leave it a five-star review and a comment. We really, really do appreciate it and it does help spread the message too. I'm not going to say anything else. I'm going to see you next week and thank you so much for supporting. And if you are not a subscriber to the newsletter, we give two science-based recipes every single week. So do check those out as well because they will help you lead healthier, happier lives and that's exactly what we want to try and do in the Doctor's Kitchen. Until next week.