Dr Heather McKee: And yes, you should have a certain level of flexibility, but if you haven't planned for that eventuality, I you know, a lot of my clients when they first come to me, they say, oh, but when I travel, it's very hard to stay healthy. And I say, how often do you travel? Where do you often travel to? Okay, well, let's create a plan and you know, a system. And it's that system for change that planning helps you create. If you don't have a, I always say to people, it's not you that's failed, it's your system that's failed. And so, you know, if you fail to make a good system, then it's likely that you will fail. So have a look at that system. So plan out three to five key barriers that are going to get in your way and start thinking about ways in which you can overcome those.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast with me, Dr Rupy, where we discuss the most important topics and concepts in the medicinal qualities of food and lifestyle. My guest today is Dr Heather McKee. She studied as a health behaviour change and weight loss psychologist for 10 years and her mission is to offer an evidence-based, sustainable alternative to an industry saturated with quick fixes and health fads. She works as a habit coach, working one-to-one with clients, as a behaviour change specialist, supporting businesses and designing and delivering in-person digital wellness programmes for long-term adherence and positive health outcomes. Her passion is translating the evidence-based techniques into real-life practices to help people build the skills and the confidence they need to create lasting and enjoyable health habits. And this is something that really does come across in the podcast today. She's also published research internationally in leading academic journals and she's been featured in a whole bunch of magazines including Time, Huffington Post, the Daily Mail and more. There is a lot of evidence-based, safe dietary and lifestyle change that we as practitioners can be confidently discussing with our patients. And this is something that we talk pragmatically and openly about today and I really think you're going to enjoy this. I cooked for Dr Heather a delicious chickpea salad with za'atar, sumac, lemon, extra virgin olive oil. It was delicious and you can check it out on YouTube, the recipe and the video of me cooking it for her is all there. So make sure you go check it out on YouTube at the Doctor's Kitchen.com. Listen right to the end because there's going to be a summary of our conversation and how you can get in contact with Dr Heather yourself. On to the podcast.
Dr Rupy: Okay, so I'm going to be cooking for you. A very simple dish. We've got some, it's going to, you know what, I haven't thought of a name for it. So I'm just going to call it a Middle Eastern chickpea salad.
Dr Heather McKee: Okay.
Dr Rupy: It's going to be finely chopped spinach, some parsley. Do you have any issues with parsley? Are you okay with parsley?
Dr Heather McKee: I don't love it.
Dr Rupy: You don't love it.
Dr Heather McKee: I don't love it.
Dr Rupy: Okay, fine. So I'm going to go easy on the parsley and I'm going to go mint. You're okay with mint?
Dr Heather McKee: I'm a big fan.
Dr Rupy: Okay, great. We'll get heavier on the mint, easy on the parsley. Spinach is going to be sort of the main green we're going to be using anyway, so that's going to mellow all those other things. But we're going to go with za'atar, sumac, some oregano, some pre-cooked chickpeas here that's just come from a can that I've drained, and some lemon to give it some zing, plenty of olive oil, seasoning, and then bring it all together. Does that sound good?
Dr Heather McKee: Sounds amazing.
Dr Rupy: All right, I'll go easy on the parsley. I'm glad you said that now.
Dr Heather McKee: I'm so honest. I'm so sorry.
Dr Rupy: No, it's good. Be honest because I know like people don't like coriander or whatever.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, no, I love coriander. Parsley is literally the only thing I don't like. I'm like, I eat everything. But your comments doesn't love parsley.
Dr Rupy: Okay, fine. No, perfect, perfect. So I'm going to chop away. In the meantime, Dr McKee.
Dr Heather McKee: Yes.
Dr Rupy: I'll call you Heather, shall I?
Dr Heather McKee: Yes, please. It's so awkward.
Dr Rupy: Tell us about your background and stuff and what kind of work you do.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, great. Um, I started out in sports science, actually. So my background isn't psychology, it's actually sports science.
Dr Rupy: Okay. I didn't realise that.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah. Um, so my first degree was in Dublin. Um, and I got into it, I was actually more interested in the health side really than the sports side. But kind of back then, back in the day.
Dr Rupy: Back in the day.
Dr Heather McKee: It's interesting because like sport was, you know, like nowadays fitness is a sport. Like back then it was just sport.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr Heather McKee: You know, or nothing. Like there wasn't really a thing, like this makes me sound ancient, but like it wasn't a big thing to go to the gym like it is now. It wasn't a cultural kind of thing.
Dr Rupy: I completely agree. Yeah. It's so weird that you say that because I haven't really thought about that. And I regard myself as a sporty person, but actually the only sport I do is when I go bouldering or I play the occasional game of tennis, but really I'm just going to the gym.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah. Yeah. That's like it's a valid sport. If darts can be a sport. No, but yeah, so like I'm, yeah, I'm fascinated by this movement into like fitness as a, as a kind of sport in in itself. Um, but yeah, I kind of got into that because I was interested in the health side. So my research when I was there kind of was on mental health and exercise. So what we did was we looked at vulnerable men, so men from low socioeconomic status, um, men kind of, you're just from poorer backgrounds that don't regularly present at mental health services. And we designed an intervention to look at, you know, does group-based exercise kind of buffer the effect over and above kind of normal exercise in the gym. Um, and we kind of, the intervention then in terms of the group-based exercise was based on kind of CBT and everything else, but mostly it was based on kind of social bonding and other key factors. And yeah, what we found was that it was, you know, as kind of hypothesized that it was going to be more, it was more effective. And so actually that kind of social bonding, team building element, um, was really, really strong. So it's quite interesting because that, some went on to do their PhD in that and that work got picked up by Mind then later on. Yeah, so they did a national campaign on that. So I'm very passionate about kind of, yeah, mental health as well as, you know, all the other stuff. But when I was there at DCU, um, I went, I worked in a metabolic syndrome clinic. Don't ask me how I got this job. Okay. I have no idea. Um, and it was in a hospital and we were trying to support people with their diet and exercise. Um, a lot of them were staff, some of them were patients. And it really frustrated me because, you know, we had like nutritionists, dietitians, and all the most amazing, like best support. And yet, like people were just not making things stick.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, and it was just like, wow, like we've like, we I was such a nerd. Like I had folders of different workouts. I had like color coded them for people depending on like their mood or like their energy levels.
Dr Rupy: I love the color coding. I'm so glad you said that.
Dr Heather McKee: Such a nerd. Um, but like it wasn't happening. So one day I was like, right, I'm going to sit down with people and find out like what is, what's stopping them? They've got all these tools, like, and basically that's when I got completely hooked. I ended up sitting down with like 60 people and just been like, what's going on? Like what are the barriers? And that really to me was like, okay, this is the kind of thing I want to do. Like I really want to understand like, you know, what's holding people back from actually being healthy and staying healthy. Um, although my mom and dad was like, there's no such job as that. You can't just have chats with people. That's not a real job.
Dr Rupy: What does your dad do?
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, he works in actually both my mom and dad work in universities.
Dr Rupy: Okay, yeah.
Dr Heather McKee: In rivals. But interesting enough, that kind of got me, yeah, just really hooked on understanding more. So then I went to Loughborough University.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Big sporting university.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, yeah. And they've got a great exercise psychology focus. Um, so I did kind of mainly kind of health promotion, exercise psychology, did a lot of work on sedentary behavior.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Heather McKee: So my supervisor, Stuart Biddle, he does a lot on, it was like that early sedentary behavior work. Um, so again, looking at like correlates of mental health, sedentary behavior and everything else. Um, but again, it was like kind of sitting down and talking to the people was the part that I loved. Yeah. Um, so then fast forward, got accepted to a PhD in the University of Birmingham, um, and you know, that was on the psychology of weight loss. Uh-huh. Um, so it's quite interesting because this is one thing I saw, you know, a lot of people got really fired up about their health behaviors when it came to losing weight. You know, and a lot of people really, for a lot of people it's their primary motivator.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, huge motivator, I was going to say, yeah.
Dr Heather McKee: So interesting. And like, yeah, the only way that people really knew how to lose weight was through dieting. And yet, like, you know, all the evidence shows that dieting is the most ineffective way to lose weight. And in fact, it's the most effective way to gain weight long term.
Dr Rupy: Right, right. I wasn't, I didn't realize that. It's the most effective way to gain weight.
Dr Heather McKee: Well, that's like very strongly put, but you know, there's, there's a really good meta-analysis, so like a study of studies, um, that shows that like basically at least two-thirds of dieters regain any of the weight they lost and more. Um, and actually even the studies that they looked at were really biased towards the the weight loss effect. Um, and the problem is it's, it's people will lose weight in short term. You know, we know that from the evidence base, but long term they'll definitely regain and the more diets you add in, the more likely that they're going to regain more than their original weight.
Dr Rupy: Right.
Dr Heather McKee: Um, there was an interesting study they did on the biggest loser, you know, the TV show.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I think I know the study you're about to say.
Dr Heather McKee: But they looked at their BMRs, like their basal metabolic rates. And they'd gone to like, some of them were 750 or something crazy because of, um, yeah, that whole effect, like what's, you probably know the word for it now. What's the adaptive thermogenesis, isn't it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so you essentially like your body goes into like a resilience mode where, you know, it defends its weight set point. Um, and it's a phenomenon that's quite well recognized. But um, just to clarify the BMR is the basal metabolic rate. Um, and the interesting fact about that was uh, how it it goes right down, um, when you're losing weight. It's it's incredible. So, but yeah, sorry, carry on.
Dr Heather McKee: No, no, yeah. So, um, and my research was kind of really looking at, so the way that, the reason I got into it is because they were like, well, actually we're going to look at how you lose weight without dieting. So how are we going to look at the psychology behind weight loss and actually how do we support people to achieve their goals and stick on, stay on track long term. So like my passion is maintenance. Like I want to know, you know, how do we get someone engaged and keep them engaged long term. Like that's like, yeah, my love, like absolutely. But so the, the studies that we did originally, we looked at kind of goals. So we looked at goal setting, we looked at, what's quite interesting about this concept of goal dilution. So you know, uh, New Year's comes around and you're like, right, I'm going to save money, I'm going to be nice to my spouse, I'm going to exercise, I'm never going to eat sugar again. I might as well cut out coffee as well. You know, I'm going to be this whole new person. And like the more goals you add in, the more you dilute your effectiveness long term. Um, and so we were like looking at what are those factors that allow someone to manage, you know, a goal alongside so many other goals. Um, and it's very, very difficult to do. And actually focusing on one is means that you're going to be a lot more effective. So actually cutting down and being really, really specific. Um, and that was quite interesting. So, you know, then we went on to look at, well, what, what are the factors that make someone successful at long-term weight maintenance? Um, and we kind of did a qualitative research looking at, okay, well, what are the characteristics that make someone a maintainer versus people that actually lost a significant, clinically significant amount of weight, but then regained it over time. Um, and yeah, that was really fascinating because, you know, what came out was really that those that were maintainers, like they'd made a lifestyle choice. It become part of their identity, it was who they are. They didn't look at it like a diet, you know, they didn't look at it like a short-term thing. They kind of seen it as, you know, it wasn't a finish line to be crossed. It was kind of more of a lifestyle to be lived. Um, and that was absolutely fascinating. And so we were able to kind of distill down some of the factors that were able to, that were kind of supportive of people making those long-term changes.
Dr Rupy: Okay. And what were those factors?
Dr Heather McKee: Um, so lots of different things, but um, a lot of it was because they didn't actually focus on weight as the outcome.
Dr Rupy: Interesting.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Heather McKee: And like that, that goes back to the whole lifestyle to be lived. And there's quite interesting, you know, in psychology, we talk a lot about intrinsic, extrinsic goals. So like extrinsic goals are, you know, losing a certain amount of weight, running a certain time in a marathon, you know, lifting a certain amount of kilograms in the gym, whatever it is. And yes, we know that those are motivating, but only in the short term. And the reason that they're only motivating in the short term is because, you know, they rely on those external extrinsic factors to keep you going. So like the Facebook likes or whatever else it is, you know, other people telling you well done. Um, and you know, if you reach those goals, the joy of kind of getting there is kind of fleeting in a bit of a way. And also then you can put yourself under pressure to step it up. Okay, let's go to the next level, to the next level. And when it comes to lifestyle behaviors, that isn't always most effective. But the interesting thing is on the flip side, intrinsic goals, um, so those goals that are for personal significance or personal reasons. Um, and it's lovely like intrinsic, I think in Latin translates into goods for the soul.
Dr Rupy: Really? Oh, that's such a beautiful set. I had no idea that was a derivation.
Dr Heather McKee: And that's exactly what it means. Like it's like they're those things that nourish you from within. Yeah. Um, and so people that were more intrinsically motivated, they do something because it's got a personal significance to them. They do it because it's kind of part of who they are. It's their belief system. It's, you know, like why do something that's inconsistent with who you want to represent in the world. And those are the people that tend to be more successful because it, you know, when they get into the trenches and things start to go wrong, they can kind of call on that, you know, value goal that's part of who they are, rather than, you know, looking externally for getting that validation. They can actually turn internally. And that's what we found, you know, people that were most successful, they tended to internalize their goals more. And so we went on to actually then create an intervention around this and looked at, well, how can we maximize that? So we looked at, um, just, we, we kind of ran two weight loss, weight loss maintenance groups, one that was based on diet and exercise advice, and the other that was just based on these cognitive skills. And it's quite interesting because we found that both groups lost the same amount of weight, but those with the cognitive skills, they didn't do any, they didn't make any dietary changes, they didn't make any physical activity changes. And interestingly, they spiked in self-esteem and kind of mindfulness and different kind of cognitive measures. Um, and that was really interesting because then it kind of brought about this kind of idea of, oh, can we train people in these cognitive factors, in the factors that these successful maintainers have? Um, yeah.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing. And so, so was there any arm looking at combining the two? So giving them the,
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, well, that would have been the next step. But I had to finish the PhD.
Dr Rupy: Well, actually one thing we did go on to look at, um, was one of the factors that kind of offset people on more in a day-to-day basis was giving into temptation. And what we were really interested then was about, okay, well, why do people give into temptation? What are the circumstances around it? And so we created this app, um, where we looked at instances of kind of resistance to temptation, so, um, non-lapses and lapse when people gave into temptation, because we again, we were trying to isolate, well, what differentiates those like the maintainers, um, from the non-maintainers. And a lot of the non-maintainers said, oh, you know, once I kind of went off track, that was it, you know, and I've, you know, and this happens for a lot of people, like, you know, a lot of people are like, do really well all week, eat really, you know, well, and then it gets Thursday, and you know, they've missed lunch and they see a Snickers bar and they eat it. And then they think, oh, the whole thing's ruined. I might as well just go to Deliveroo for the weekend. I'll start again on Monday. Whereas the maintainers didn't have that attitude. They kind of saw it as a bend in the road, but not the end of the road, you know. Um, and so we were like, well, what happens for these people and what are the circumstances around that? Um, and it's quite interesting because we found that people were most tempted at certain times of the day. So it was like 3:30 and 8:30.
Dr Rupy: 8:30 in the evening?
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Interesting. Okay.
Dr Heather McKee: And so 3:30, um, and there was a number of different factors. It was like, were there, um, influences in your environment? Was it boredom? You know, was it fatigue? Was it stress? Um, and then at 8:30, actually, the most, the temptations that people most likely gave into were alcohol temptations. Um, people were better able to resist food actually temptations at that time of day than they were, um, alcohol temptations. Um, but it was really interesting because we started to see these patterns in people about when they gave into temptation most and why. Um, and that was, I think that's interesting from an environmental point of view as well. It's like, can you look at your habits throughout the day? Because we think that, you know, when we give into temptation that it's in isolation, but ultimately it tends to be the same patterns that repeat, repeat, repeat. And one thing I always say to people is, why not keep a temptations diary, like just for a week. Look at when you're most tempted, look at the factors why. And for a lot of people, it was just the same things. It was boredom. Yeah, or, you know, like wanting to procrastinate at work or something like that. And actually for some people, it was stress and food became, you know, a distractor from that, from that stress. Um, and what probably go on to talk about it, but when we talk about the habit loop, you can see, you know, how that can have a negative effect over time. Um, but this was really interesting. So there was kind of two key concepts. It was like the training of people in kind of psychological techniques to help, you know, buffer, um, or help maintain the ability to stay on track. And then also looking at, well, what helps, what or what, why people go off track and then how can we back solve for that and help them actually create support strategies to stop them going off track.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so making it very much personalized to their environment and actually, uh, a bit more intuitive for them beyond this intervention, I guess, isn't it? So if you know that what your triggers are, then, uh, you're going to instinctively be more aware, but also just make it part of your lifestyle rather than something that's quite rigid. Yeah. I mean, like for me, when you were talking about intrinsic and that kind of stuff, my kind of lifestyle of going to the gym first thing in the morning, um, trying to meditate and eating like hopefully delicious food that's healthy all the time. You know, isn't like a fixed sort of time period that I'm not sort of doing it for a defined, um, outcome that's like time dependent or weight dependent or anything. It's just I just want to live a healthier lifestyle. And I'm trying to promote that, but it's very hard to do that, isn't it? In a world which is kind of bombarding you with quick fixes and fads and how you should look, how how much weight you should weigh, all this kind of thing. So that I that's fascinating. And I can't wait to go into a little bit more detail about, you know, managing multiple goals and that was another part of your research thing and how you you actually increase the successes of attaining those. So, I'm going to tell you about this food. So, whilst you've been chatting, um, I've made a very simple, uh, dish. Like I said, all I've done, sliced up some spinach, some a little bit of parsley, not too much, uh, some, uh, some mint, uh, and then the dressing is za'atar, which is a beautiful mixture of like cumin, sesame, marjoram, a little bit more oregano because I think it needs a little bit more dried oregano, some sumac, which is a dried, um, uh, part of the rus plant, and uh, half a teaspoon of red chili because I don't want your nose to be streaming whilst you're whilst you're watching this. Yeah, yeah, crying. Yeah, yeah. Um, so sit again.
Dr Heather McKee: Awesome. Have a taste. You can be genuine with your, uh,
Dr Rupy: Okay, my critical feedback.
Dr Heather McKee: Oh, it's so good. I love the lemon.
Dr Rupy: Oh, good. Good. I think the lemon and the oregano.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Nice. Good. Oh, I'm so glad. Well, let's take a break. We'll finish that. We'll have a little bit more. Is this typically what you eat? Like what what's a typical sort of,
Dr Heather McKee: No, I have za'atar every day. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm a big fan of legumes. Definitely. Like actually last night I made one of my favorite salads. It was like, um, puy lentils, mackerel, oranges and feta.
Dr Rupy: Oh, great. Oh, great flavor combination.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, but I don't spice it that much. And that's where I'm missing out on, I think.
Dr Rupy: I tell you what, like puy lentil, my favorite lentil, by the way. I don't know about, but my favorite lentil is the puy lentil. Um, it goes so well with so many different spices because otherwise it's quite bland on its own. I mean, that meal that you just described, you're getting saltiness from the mackerel, you're getting a little bit of sweetness from the orange, so it kind of marries quite well. But, uh, I love using za'atar and dakkah, Egyptian dakkah is great. Um, but puy lentils go really well with like, um, a slight hint of chili and cumin, I think it goes really well. So, try that out.
Dr Heather McKee: I will. I'll be adding it on. Thank you.
Dr Rupy: So, yeah, I know. And if you want to listen to the rest of our conversation, uh, head over to iTunes or whatever your favorite podcast player is and you can listen to the rest of our interesting chat.
Dr Rupy: How was your lunch?
Dr Heather McKee: Um, amazing. You can be honest.
Dr Rupy: No, I loved it.
Dr Heather McKee: I'm definitely going to go, I'm do, I'm going to buy these immediately.
Dr Rupy: Okay, yeah, the za'atar and the sumac and the,
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, and then I'm going to go big on the lemon because how many did you use?
Dr Rupy: I used just one, but it was a pretty juicy lemon. I was planning on using two, but actually, I think that would have overpowered it. Um, but that lemon and the sumac, because they're quite bitter flavors, they work really well together. And like, you know, all I did was chop up some parsley, mint and some spinach and it completely transforms it.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah. And tell me this now, I'm going to just ask you a question.
Dr Rupy: No, go on.
Dr Heather McKee: There's a lot of kind of evidence on herbs, isn't there? But I'm not sure how sound the evidence is as of yet, but I've read some stuff on oregano and I don't know, do you know anything about that?
Dr Rupy: So, so I'm a, one of the main things that attracted me to nutrition in general, um, and nutritional biochemistry was the evidence around sort of phytochemicals and just that just the wonder of phytochemicals. Um, there's some really interesting stuff actually coming out from Ulster University about phytochemicals, particularly berries and stuff and how that potentially has an impact on cancer risk and um, cardiovascular protection, all the rest of it. Um, so what you'll find in herbs and spices in particular are really concentrated sources of phytochemicals. So in oregano, we have rosmarinic acid, um, we have allicin in things like garlic and onions. Um, spinach, we have like, um, as well as the traditional sort of, um, ingredients like folate and vitamin K, um, you'll have a whole host of different phytochemicals. And brassica vegetables in particular, indoles, indole-3-carbinol, sulforaphane. Um, so yeah, there's some some wonderful evidence looking at what these potential chemicals can do, uh, to cells. However, what we do lack is the evidence base around whether this is having a direct impact on health and whether this is causal, you know. That being said, flooding our plates with, you know, herbs and spices and, you know, simple kitchen herbs as well, like parsley and rosemary and all this stuff and stuff. I think it's a real pragmatic approach to improving our health without us being able to say definitively that this is causing X. And that's something that you would never really be able to say without an RCT or whatever. And then that's before we even go into seasonality and how things are grown and whether organic versus conventional has a better profile. These are super, super nuanced questions to answer. Um, but I I am just a huge fan of getting as many different spices as possible.
Dr Heather McKee: Great. Yeah. Nice to know.
Dr Rupy: So, yeah, I know. And I I also think, um, and and maybe you share this opinion as well because it sounds like we were just eating now and you're like a proper foodie. You know, you're from East London, you love like going to the bakeries and all that kind of stuff. Um, but uh, you don't just eat with your eyes and eat with your your your taste buds, but you also eat with your ears, I find. Like when you go to a restaurant and you have the, um, either the chef or the restaurant or the maitre d and they come over and they tell you about the food. It's that sort of anticipation of food that just is such a wonderful experience. And I think it's very much part of the eating process. So the description that I put in my books, for example, about how the food, you know, there's the emotional connection around the food as well as sort of the the function of the food. And that's what I'm really, I'm really, um, passionate about marrying the two rather than just being about function versus flavor. It's flavor and function. Um, one of the best at this is, sorry, I'm going on a bit. Should we talk about willpower? Um, one of the best at describing food, I find is Nigella Lawson. She's just got this,
Dr Heather McKee: Oh, I was just thinking that when you said it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, this voluptuous way of like, you know, explaining and,
Dr Heather McKee: But you find that they, so when food is described really well, it's never healthy food. You know, people aren't like, oh, the crunch of this carrot and the, you know, it doesn't, like it's always like this really rich and creamy sauce or a dessert or anything else. But, you know, what if we could talk about healthy food, you know, in the same way, like you said, like create this 360 experience where it's not just taste and smell, but like sound and everything else.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And that's sort of why, um, when I was writing the first and the second book, I wanted to make it an immersive foodie experience but with the health edge. So it's kind of like a nod to why we should be celebrating food and why food is such a special part of our existence. Whilst at the same time, uh, being enthusiastic about the health benefits of food as well. And so, you know, if I can describe something as, you know, the the the herbaceousness of the the spice blend, the aromas of the different ingredients that I'm putting together, the, um, the sort of like bitter compounds that you find in spinach and parsley and marrying that with, um, you know, some some sweetness from whether that be a touch of honey or a touch of sugar, um, and, you know, the the mellowness of the extra virgin olive oil, bring it all together. You know, these are things that we need to appreciate. And I think we've we've kind of lost our our, um, our our taste and appreciation for the for the compounds in food in its whole form. And it's more refined. And obviously, you know, from an evolutionary point of view, um, we are drawn to sweet things and we are, you know, we're rejectful of bitter compounds because, you know, bitter in nature is typically alkaloids and they can be poisonous and and sugar is something that is, uh, sustaining and, you know, it's associated with sugar, which we need to survive. Um, so it's about sort of like, uh, being aware of that in our, uh, in our modern environment and and, you know, sort of, um, changing our, what am I trying to say? Almost like, uh, keeping that in mind when, you know, when we go to past convenience stores and past bakeries and Cinnabons and that kind of stuff.
Dr Heather McKee: The whole like 360 degree kind of experience of food.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely.
Dr Heather McKee: It's quite interesting as you talk about that. So I recently trained in this kind of methodology. It's come out of the University of Plymouth. It's called functional imagery training. I don't know if you've heard of it. They've had some of the best results in recent years in terms of actually, um, impact on weight loss maintenance, um, in terms of studies. And actually one of the ways that they start, um, doing the, um, or actually introducing people to functional imagery is that they get them to image, you know, chopping a lemon on a table and the smell and the the look of the lemon and you know, like starting to feel, um, the bitterness in their mouth before they even allow a single drop on on your mouth. And you know, by the end of the kind of 90 second image, you know, you're dying for this lemon. Um, and it's really interesting because what they've shown is, you know, by helping people image, you know, their days, um, and actually look at how they go out through their habits by looking at what all of those kind of vivid things that you feel. So your sight, sound, taste, smell, who's around, you know, your entire environment, that actually can really enhance people's ability to then stick to their goals because it it puts in a day-to-day process way. You know, we talked about process and outcome goals and everything, but it's like, you know, when you go home and you make this salad, you know, all of the joys of cooking it and you're chopping it and the whole thing can really then help people understand, you know, what health can look like in the context of their lives.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I'm such a firm believer in that. I'm so glad you brought that up because I feel that, um, if you're able to visualize something and you're able to, um, uh, experience it in a singular element. So, you know, you're visualizing what this is actually going to lead you to achieve in the future. There is something, call it placebo effect if you want to, but there is something in that that is very, uh, special. And I think that definitely has some sort of health benefit in the future. And I like, I immediately think of the law of attraction, laws of attraction and stuff. And I I immediately think of, um, UFC fighters. I know I'm going to a massive segue here. But, uh, UFC fighters, mixed martial arts fighters, and how rigid they are in their thinking that they are going to win and they are, you know, super motivated and it gets them through grueling training that everyone else would have given up at that point. Um, and the same could be said of like, you know, Tour de France cyclists or anyone in,
Dr Heather McKee: Have you seen Bruce Lee's diary? His mantras to himself and his affirmations and everything, but also his visualization of when I'm there, what I'm doing. Muhammad Ali is another really good example.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I have affirmations that I do every single day. I do a mantra in the morning and I, uh, I do my gratitude journal that I was sharing initially for 700 consecutive days. And then I realized that, you know, I was kind of holding back and I actually wanted to be more of a private experience. So I still do it, but I do it to myself. And every now and then I share it for if I feel it's warranted, just to remind other people, you know what, this is a very sort of, uh, effective tool to put a positive spin on on your day that could otherwise be quite stressful.
Dr Heather McKee: What's interesting about that though is like you say, you know, it became for other people rather than for you. And so you needed to pull that back in again.
Dr Rupy: Exactly. Yeah. And that's why I think the the reason why I set it out, the reason why I set out to do it in the first place was to educate people and then share my experiences. And then I found actual benefit because it helped me accountable to it because I had to do this every single day. But then I sort of lost focus on it. And then I kind of lost sight of it. And you know what, it became at the detriment of the exercise in itself. So I stopped sharing it, but I still do it. And I find it's one of the most effective tools. And I share it with my patients as well. I always say like, you know, um, it is something to to to reframe your mindset and to keep you focused on whatever goals you have, be it weight, be it, you know, condition, be it, you know, just striving through life. Um, yeah, I find it was a very effective tool.
Dr Heather McKee: I love that you say that because actually there's a bit of research, you know, they call it self-compassion check-in, where you ask yourself, you know, what are my needs right now? You know, are they physiological? Like, is it that I'm actually just thirsty? Um, is it that I'm hungry? You know, why am I in such a bad mood? Um, or maybe, maybe you're actually hungry, you know. Um, and then is it emotional? You know, do I need to actually go and talk to someone? Do I feel isolated? You know, um, is it, is it mental? Am I stressed? You know, do I need a break? Um, and actually by asking yourself these questions, you know, you're actually tuning into what your true needs are, rather than trying to mask them with external stuff. Um, and yeah, you're much more likely to then be better in tune with yourself that actually cultivate habits that are going to last long term.
Dr Rupy: I love that. It's a joy, environment, kindness. And one thing that I think helps me cultivate kindness to myself because I think I'm probably on the on the fence of like someone beating themselves up and as a medic, you have a very sort of alpha mentality where you just think you're invincible. And actually when I got ill myself was kind of the first time I realized the vulnerability of my own health and how I need to be a lot kinder to myself. But um, one thing that really has helped me cultivate that is is meditation. And not to sound too woo woo, but checking in with myself every for 10 minutes every day, actually just recognizing, am I stressed? Am I tired? Am I sore? Am I physically fatigued? Am I mentally fatigued? What thoughts are going in through my mind? Because I think a lot of people think of meditation as you need to just remove everything from your head and just, you know, be still and have this sort of inner peace when actually,
Dr Heather McKee: It's impossible. You can't do it.
Dr Rupy: Exactly. Yeah. The more you meditate, the realize, the more you realize that's just not going to happen. But what it, what it does give you, uh, a period of time to do is just recognize what's going on and checking in inside. Yeah. Um, and there's various practices you could do, you know, you could do a guided meditation, you could do a breathing meditation, you could do a sound one where you just like recognize how you have no control of the sounds that go into your brain and and in your environment. But I found that absolutely game-changing when it comes to figuring out what I need to do on a daily basis and just being more intuitive about, uh, how I should be treating myself essentially. Um, and hopefully that translates into like healthy behaviors and and achieving my ultimate goals because you can't achieve them unless you're in the right frame of mind.
Dr Heather McKee: And I love that you say that because actually there's a bit of research, you know, they call it self-compassion check-in, where you ask yourself, you know, what are my needs right now? You know, are they physiological? Like, is it that I'm actually just thirsty? Um, is it that I'm hungry? You know, why am I in such a bad mood? Um, or maybe, maybe you're actually hungry, you know. Um, and then is it emotional? You know, do I need to actually go and talk to someone? Do I feel isolated? You know, um, is it, is it mental? Am I stressed? You know, do I need a break? Um, and actually by asking yourself these questions, you know, you're actually tuning into what your true needs are, rather than trying to mask them with external stuff. Um, and yeah, you're much more likely to then be better in tune with yourself that actually cultivate habits that are going to last long term.
Dr Rupy: I could have talked to Dr Heather for hours. She is incredible, super passionate about the subject. I can see why her patients love her so much. We talked about how we navigate the modern landscape with our evolutionary mindset and physical attributes in mind. In particular, what she's interested in is finding out what your joy is, what sparks joy in your life, to quote Marie Kondo. Tailoring our environment to make sure that we are more likely to be successful in whatever our goals are, whether they be health-related or otherwise. And the last thing I think is kindness, practicing self-love, kindness, even though it sounds a bit woo, it is seriously something that I think a lot of us need to practice, more particularly those of us in professions which can be very demanding. And taking that time to be grateful and practicing gratitude is something that I'm a very big fan of as well. And it's great to hear about some of the evidence base behind these interventions that I promote and the things that I practice myself. We talked about the controversy around psychology and weight loss and why she's actually rising above that. And I think it's fantastic for Heather to talk openly about these things. You can find her at drheathermckee.co.uk. She has her own podcast that I've actually been a guest on. That's Bitesized Habits. And you can email Dr Heather at info@drheathermckee.co.uk. You can find all of this information and more at thedoctorskitchen.com/podcast. Subscribe to the newsletter for weekly recipes, content and much more to help you live the healthiest, happiest life. Make sure you check out the recipe on YouTube. You won't regret it. It's a fantastic recipe and there's a lot more content there for you to enjoy too. I've linked to some of the research articles that we discussed on the podcast at thedoctorskitchen.com too. Have a fantastic day. Please leave us a five-star if you enjoyed this podcast. It really does help spread the love and the message. Till next time.
