Dr Rupy: Thanks so much for jumping on the podcast. It's been a long time that I've wanted you guys on to talk about the Happy Pear journey, how you got started, and why you guys are incredible advocates for a plant-based lifestyle. But I wonder if we could start by taking us right to the beginning and how you started on your journey almost two decades ago.
Stephen: Yeah, great.
David: Are you going to go with the?
Stephen: Yeah, can I go?
David: Yeah.
Stephen: Okay, great. So, Steve here. So we're two identical twins. We grew up in a little small town called Greystones in Ireland and we often joke that it's quite like the Shire because you've the mountains on one hill, you've got the sea, it's a nice tight community.
David: Most people don't know what the Shire is.
Stephen: The Shire in Lord of the Rings, it's where the hobbits live and they're all kind of nice and friendly and it's a real lovely idyllic place. So we grew up in an environment like that. We're two boys, we have two other brothers, so it was a very male-oriented household. Went to all-boys school, played a lot of rugby. We were lads, we were like champion jocks. And at school, happiness was kind of getting drunk, having burgers and chips and going out chasing women. And that was, this was in the final years of school. This wasn't obviously when we were 12.
David: This is when we were 18 or what not.
Stephen: Good, good correction. Thanks Stephen. And then went to university and really weren't sure what we were interested in. So did a degree and a masters in business, but mostly because we didn't know what the hell we were into.
David: Can I interject with one slight. So like we're identical twins. So one thing which is kind of, maybe it's not unique to identical twins, but the nature of being an identical twin is you've always been competing for love and attention your whole life. So we've like right from the start from our mother competing for love and attention. So we, when people say they're competitive, it's like you haven't been competing for everything your whole life that like we're very competitive and always have been. So by the time when we were in college studying business, we were both playing semi-pro rugby, we were off nearly scratching golf, we were both doing modelling because it was a good way of meeting girls.
Stephen: Playing baseball for Ireland. We were doing, we did a lot of things, we were really busy. And by the time
David: Baseball?
Stephen: Yeah, we even played, I remember we went to the European. No, if you played baseball, you were on the Irish baseball team. It was great that way. Yeah, we went to the European championships which were in Hull. The glamorous Hull in England. Yeah, it was great. But at the time, so when we finished college, it was, we had both done lots of things you were meant to do and like through the eyes of how society would judge a 21-year-old, we were like, oh, these guys are going places. But in our own heads, we were feeling a bit hollow and a bit empty and it was like, there must be more to life.
David: And then a friend, Tommy Kelly, was turning 40. And Tommy was a friend that we grew up with and he said, lads, I wonder for my 40th birthday, will you join me and we'll run a marathon? We said, dead on, Tommy, great. We didn't think about it. Didn't think how far a marathon is, didn't think you had to train or anything. And mum didn't kind of think we'd get through university and we did. And she wanted to celebrate, so she bought us tickets to travel around Europe, inter-railing. So we spent a month, I think it was around August that year.
Stephen: When was this?
David: This is 2001 or 2000. And we spent the month going around Europe, kind of getting drunk and chasing international women. And then we kind of forgot to train. And when we came back, it was, the marathon is in October, and we came back at the start of October and it was like, oh yeah, we got this marathon, Dave. Oh yeah, we really should train. So we, I remember in sixth year biology, I used to sit beside this guy called Keith Barry. And Keith, I remember one day saying, do you ever hear what a detox is? And I was like, I don't know what a detox is. And he said, I think it's something about like letting your body like clean itself or something. I was like, that's cool, Keith. And I remember it sticking with me and I go, Dave, maybe like for this marathon, maybe we should try a detox, like as part of the training. Yeah, yeah, brilliant idea, Steve. So this is back in 2000, the internet really wasn't available and you didn't have a smartphone. So we went down to the next best thing, we went down to the local library and asked, do you have a book on detox? And they went, what's a detox? And we said, exactly. And they said, no, no book here, but we've one in Dublin. And they said, we can get it out for you in a week. And we said, great. So a week later, we got our book on detox and it was like, okay, cool. So no processed food, eat lots of vegetables. And the big one was no booze. So it was like, okay, right, let's do it, let's do it for a few weeks and see if we can do this marathon. So we did it for a few weeks before the marathon and marathon came and we did great, it was no bother. And then afterwards it was like, I wonder like, I feel kind of good. We keep doing this. So we kept doing, we said, let's do it till Christmas. This was the end of October, so we had November to do and we said, let's do it till mid-December and then we'll go meet the lads and we'll go out and you know, get drunk with the lads. So we did it for a month and a half and then went to meet the lads and you know, they poured us a pint and there was a pint sitting at the bar and this was very ceremonious like, I'm coming back to the lads, I'm going to be back to the tribe. Back to be a man again. And for some reason, I don't know, it just didn't feel the same and we left early, didn't even finish that pint and something had kind of changed. And I remember after that sitting with Dave that Christmas going, Dave, I don't know, I want to go away on my own. I want to have a divorce from you, learn what it's like to be an individual and I'm going away and buying a one-way ticket to Canada and I'm not coming back until I'm happy. And that was kind of the start of of kind of that kind of was like the start of us exploring food and how it affected our health. And it was, I went away to to Whistler and you went away to.
David: Yeah, I went away to South Africa to go train to be a golf pro. I was off scratch at the time and I wanted to go practice for a winter and then see if I was going to join a tour or something. And we went away separately and then we went away, we didn't know for how long and it ended up being a couple of years of just kind of exploring our social conditioning. So like I guess growing up in Greystones, you were told, you know, you should get a job and maybe get a successful job and then buy a house and get married and then you'll be happy and then you're a good lad. But I guess we kind of wanted to, it was the first time away on our own in a different city. So it was like, I wonder who I'll be this time. Maybe I won't be a jock this time. Maybe I'll be a hippie or maybe I'll be something different. So I remember in I went to Whistler, which was a cool party town where it was like, you know, lots of parties, lots of beautiful people. I had a job up the mountain in a burger bar, you know, nothing glamorous. But I remember I didn't want to go to the parties. I didn't want to do all that I'd done before. It was like, I used to go down as soon as I finished my shift in the burger bar, I'd go down to the library, I'd get vegetarian cookbooks and I'd just read up about them because I remember, I remember sitting up there the first day that I got up there in Whistler, there was a mountain up the top of the, there was a restaurant up the top of the mountain. I remember they had this vegetarian chili and there were eight different vegetables in it. And I remember thinking, oh my god, I'm going to get super powers after eating this. Where, when's it going to kick in? Like, when am I going to start to feel amazing? Um, obviously nothing really happened. But for for that, I guess for the next couple of years, we wanted to explore, you know, our own social conditioning and find out where we felt most happy. So kind of I went from spending time in Whistler as a snowboard instructor to tree planting in Northern Canada, to hitchhiking around America, to kind of staying in polyamorous communities or organic centres, meditation centres, Tony Robbins conferences, anything weird and wonderful and bizarre to see where did we feel or where did I or we feel.
David: Where did we fit in really? And then, and and meanwhile, I was kind of doing the same thing. We were both on these separate journeys. And then one day out of the blue, we're about 23, Steve calls me up and says, Dave, Dave, Dave, Dave, do you want to launch a health food revolution? And that was his terms. And I was thinking, well, revolution, brilliant, Steve, this is going to be like placards, leading marches, like, yeah, power to the people, Steve. And then he says, do you want to start a vegetable shop, Dave? And I was like, a vegetable shop and revolution, Steve, I'm just missing something here. And he says, trust me, Dave, I've got an idea.
Stephen: And our diet had gone from eating a standard meat and two veg diet here in Ireland, growing up in a kind of lovely middle class family to suddenly going to be vegetarian, to going to be vegan, to going to be a raw food. I had a raw food diet for about a year to get into fasting, cleansing, enemas, really trying to explore if we could become enlightened through diet because I had I had this kind of weird idea that if I eat like a ton of kale, will I suddenly become this kinder, nicer, more connected human? And I found out that wasn't the case. However, we we felt more ourselves and we wanted to, I guess, try use business as a vehicle to create a social movement to encourage people to eat more veg, to feel more connected and to have a laugh. And that was why we started our business, the Happy Pear. And that was back in 2004. So we, I guess in 2004, Ireland was an economic boom, so it was very easy to borrow money. So we kind of did a business plan on the back of an envelope, borrowed 100 grand and boom, we had a vegetable shop. Got up at 4:30 a.m. used to go into the fruit market and come back and sell carrots and potatoes.
David: And the funny thing was we left as two, as two jocks that were like, you know, we had short back and sides hair, we, we used to wear like Ralph Lauren shirts and we'd leave our jeans and we were doing modelling. And then we came back two years later and we had beards, we had long hair, we had plaid pants. You know, when we left, we were burgers and pints and when we came back, we were vegans, we were into yoga, we wanted to swim in the sea and we were starting a vegetable shop. So people thought, Jesus, the lads have totally lost the plot. And obviously lots of people thought, Jesus, they must be selling drugs at the back or something like, you know, that it was really, there was a kind of sense of they've really gone off the track, you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, the story is amazing. I just wanted to touch on one point about why you felt the need to go separately. I know you mentioned you wanted to kind of find your own way apart from outside of the social conditioning of you guys always being in the same area and being identified as identical twins and stuff. But was there anything that happened around the time of you doing the marathon, something that you read or something you come across that made you want to search for happiness in and of itself?
Stephen: I don't think it was any like something extrinsic, it was something intrinsic. There was this kind of general feeling of, I feel a bit empty. I surely life has more. I believe life has more. And I think the desire to travel alone almost came from from a need to be vulnerable, to need to kind of put ourselves out there and expose ourselves and see what we actually had. Like I remember like hitchhiking across Nevada and sleeping on the side of the road and like, you know, literally I had money, but it was like, I don't want to spend money. I want to just see if I can live as basically and have very few needs. I remember deciding, I'm going to move to France to a city where I know no one, where I know no one and see if I can set up a community in our life. I remember wanting to challenge myself and see, see what, what, I guess what would come out of it.
Dr Rupy: And what came out of it whilst you were on your journey? Did you find elements of your lifestyle then that made you happy or was it only something that kind of sparked an idea such that you could sort of grow the seeds of happiness back home in Greystones?
David: Yeah, I think it was definitely like as and part of like the journey or whatever while we were away, I remember one bit of it, we were, we'd been away for say a year and a half or something. I remember dad called us up or sent an email and said he had been, this is back in 2001 or 2000, something like that. And he sends an email, he says, I went to this conference, this big massive tall lad with huge hands called Tony Robbins. He said, if you can get yourselves to New York, I'll pay for your ticket. So I was like, all right, cool. So I think I was in somewhere in South America, you were in Canada or something, and we ended up going to a Tony Robbins conference. And I remember we went along, it was a three-day thing and it was so much razzmatazz and super fun, like so much fun and so much about kind of goals and you can be who you want to be and you can have the life you want and all this kind of stuff. And it was really fun. And straight after that, we went to a Vipassana meditation centre. So literally, we left Tony Robbins and the next day we were on a bus up to Massachusetts in Boston and we were going to a Vipassana centre. And we ended up staying there for like six weeks.
Stephen: And a Vipassana meditation centre, you're meditating 12 hours a day, there's no talking, it's a 10-day retreat. So it's super intense, like there's no phones, you leave your passport at the door, like it's literally you're gone.
David: There's no writing, there's no reading. And we ended up going doing a course and then we ended up staying there cooking and helping and they call it serving. And it was very interesting to go from that experience of you can have it, you can, you know, the Tony Robbins kind of, you can conquer, you can be a billionaire too. And then to go from that, which was so much fun, to go to where you're literally by yourself, like, and I use that expression of slaying demons. You're, you're literally in there dealing with all your traumas and to like by yourself in the dark for 12 hours a day, that it brings up a lot of stuff. And I remember at the end of the experience with Vipassana, it was like, wow, this is, the internal is so important. Like we had throughout that journey, we'd changed our diets, we'd given up drinking, we'd given up, given up eating animals. And then we were, and now we were getting into meditation. So by the time we came back, we were, we had certainly nuggets of things that we thought were had, we felt so much more ourselves that we wanted to see about trying to if if anyone else was interested in this too, you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, you know, it's so funny you guys, I don't know if we've had this conversation before, but I did a Tony Robbins course when I was 14. I got dragged to it by my mum, who's really forward thinking. And I remember being like blown away by the sort of, like you said, the razzmatazz. It was at Wembley Arena and this guy literally packed out the entire of Wembley Arena. And it was just people chanting and lots of yeses and like you said, you can do anything, you can achieve anything, monetary goals, health goals. I think at the time as well, he was promoting a vegetarian or a largely plant-based diet as well, which is pretty revolutionary, um, given the time back then. But you know, it's, it's interesting because I think that part of your journey has obviously needed that sort of passion, the sort of commercial drive as well as, you know, the meditation and the other sort of more spiritual side of the happy pair.
Stephen: Yeah, I think there's always been a dichotomy and a challenge within the business because me and Dave, like although I did a degree and a masters in business, I'd kind of thrown away capitalism. I'd seen like money is not the goal. And when we started the business first, I was adamant it's going to be a charity. Like this isn't about money. And it took kind of a while of our dad who's kind of been a seasoned businessman. He was like, no, lads, you should really try to, you know, set up a business and really try to change the world using business as a vehicle and try to get the respect of the business community as opposed to constantly needing handouts. And so we started it as a business and, you know, for the first number of years, I remember we used to go meet our accountant every year to sign the annual accounts to go into the, what do you call it? Central CRO. Central registration office. Anyway, into the business people. And I remember we'd sign the numbers or whatever and Polly would go, so lads, do you want to know how you're doing? It's like, no. Because we didn't measure the business by like economics, we measured it by vibe. And this sounds like so asinine, so weird, but like that's where we were at.
David: But essentially, but if you look back, like that vibe was really brand. Like people would call that brand now. Like they would call it brand, but it was really about the relationships and the impact it was having on a less tangible balance sheet type thing. Like intangible fixed assets. But it would like at the like now you would call it vibe, but when I think back to it like 15 years ago or 16 years ago when we were starting, it was all about like having an impact and making people feel good and it was all about like you would call that branding nowadays, whereas back then we would have called it the vibe. The vibe, the vibe is great or whatever it would have been, you know.
Stephen: And even a few years, I guess add on another year or two from us signing those year end accounts, I remember the bank and an investor had threatened that we weren't suitable to run the business and I think you need a manager because you lads, you know, so that kind of made us pull our socks up and realise that when you're running a business, you need to be financially responsible. So it kind of made us, you know, remember. So the business has always been conflicting the sense of me and Dave being social missionaries and then the sense of needing to be a business and be financially responsible and, you know,
David: Pay your staff's wages and pay, you know, because we did, like we, we started the business back in 2004 and it reached a high of 200 people on our team back a couple of years ago. And now we're back down after Corona, we're down just under 100. So it's, yeah, it's, it's a fun journey and I guess the business has gone from me and Dave, two hippies with a dream where I think it was last year it turned over 10 million. We've four, we had four cafes pre-Corona, one in the airport. We're down to one. Now we're down to one. We've 50 products in about a thousand stores here in Ireland. We've some in Dubai, some coming into to UK next year. Uh, we have online courses, we've written five books. There's lots of parts of the business and it's great fun. It's a really.
Stephen: Yeah, you've been to play, you've been to play a few times.
Dr Rupy: Oh, I've been a couple of times. Yeah, and I love it and I can't wait for my next visit. It's always like an adventure, it's kind of refreshing and obviously you guys bring the vibe. And it's, it's interesting you talk about how like it would be now classified as brand because that's exactly what you guys were doing. It was genuine, authentic energy that you're putting into your veg shop, which now translates into loyal what your business associates and accountants would class as customers. But these are like, you know, people who lift up your business and I'm a firm believer that businesses these days all need to operate with purpose because that is literally how people will see businesses in the future. It will be through the lens of whether they're doing good for the world. And you guys clearly had that energy right at the start. I want to double click on the start a bit because, you know, setting up a veg shop, yeah, okay, fine, you managed to get a loan from the bank and it was a good time to start a business at that point. But that must have been really hard getting up first thing in the morning, getting the motivation and thinking through, okay, what the next couple of years are going to look like. Take us back to that time.
David: Our mind works so differently to yours, Rupy. There was no two-year plan, there was no three-year plan. It was just today. We get up at half four and it was, we're so excited.
Stephen: And we both be so excited that we'd both go to the fruit market together and we'd both play shop, like play shop because it was so much fun meeting people, selling this, selling that, out there saying hello to people. Like we had, we were having so much fun.
David: And regularly we'd get up at half three actually to meditate an hour before we went to the fruit market. So we were proper loons. But can I tell a story about the fruit market? So I don't know if you're familiar with the fruit market in Dublin, you probably aren't, but you've probably been to like the fruit market in London and Spitalfields or something like that, one of these big markets. But the big commercial fruit market in Dublin, that's where real men work. You know, it's real nepotism, it's lads, it's macho culture.
Stephen: It was generations of men and it was hardy men that get up in the morning.
David: And we went in there as these two lads that went to college and studied business and they wore shorts. And we were young lads, like they were all like 20 years older than us. And I remember they, like they saw us coming the first week and they'd fleece us. They'd fleece us for the first couple of weeks and they'd go, I'll give them a week, I'll give them another two weeks and there's no way these two.
Stephen: And you'd hear, you'd hear you fucking yuppies, you'd hear all these kind of.
David: There's no way these yuppies are going to stick with it. And we just kept showing up. We were so chipper. We kind of eventually exhausted them with our optimism. And it wasn't until, like obviously we were, we were getting up really early and we were playing shop all day. So we didn't have much time to meet girls. So we used to, we, at that stage, we were both single. It was back, this is back when we were 25, 26. We realised we tapped into a really good market. There was called the au pair market. And we used to, we used to meet lots of au pairs that were in shopping for whatever. And we go, oh, Jesus, yeah, you're from Germany. Oh, brilliant, great. Have you been to the Dublin fruit market yet? And they'd go, the Dublin fruit market? No, I've never heard of it. And we'd go, oh, it's amazing. You have to go. Yeah, I'll pick you up tomorrow morning, 4:30 a.m. Yeah, yeah, 4:30, yeah, in the morning. Yeah. And you'd bring them into the fruit market and you'd, you'd, it was a great way of having a date in a sense, like going hanging out and you'd bring them around the fruit market and the lads in the fruit market, obviously there was very little women in that industry. So they were falling all over these au pairs we used to bring in, giving them flowers. I love, would you like a strawberry? Oh, we got these really nice mangoes. And when we did that for a couple of months, like we realised we got some street cred from the lads.
Stephen: And suddenly we were accepted.
David: And suddenly we were accepted into the fraternity of vegetable men.
Dr Rupy: Amazing. I had no idea about the fraternity of vegetable men. That is enlightening. And I can so see like how your eternal optimism would have eventually overthrown the perspective of you guys at some point. But uh, it's so good because you sort of, where did you conjure this innate sort of positivity from? Has it always been with you guys when you were kids or was it only since you went and did your sort of individual trips and came back after discovering eating plants, meditation and and mindfulness?
Stephen: I think it's something that I guess we're fortunate that we're identical twins. So we've always had each other to support each other. And whenever we've kind of, either of us has a hair-brained idea, the other one goes, great idea, Dave, let's go do it. You know, so and then if you're feeling bad, someone can understand you without even needing to talk. You can literally just see him and you can go, I know what's what you're feeling, you know that way. So we've been very fortunate that we've always had that unconditional support and so close and it's been all our lives. So it's, I guess we've been very privileged in that regard. Um, and in terms of
David: But yeah, I'd say we've always been insufferable. Like we've been, we've had just boundless energy. Like we've always had, you know, we've been like greyhounds, you know, we just need large open spaces and we love chasing balls. As in like footballs or golf balls, like a dog, like we just have loads of energy and always have done and I guess as you kind of go out into the world and you start growing into yourself and finding more and more about yourself, you're getting more and more confident and you feel less of a need to fit in and I think then you then you become more.
Stephen: And I guess as we get older now, now we're 41, we find, you know, eating a plant-based diet, we find meditation, swimming in the sea, you know, sleeping well, really fundamental to feeling good. And I guess back about 20 years, we gave up alcohol because growing up in Ireland, alcohol is, and similarly probably in the UK, alcohol is like the social lubricant. It's like an Irish man would never dance unless they're drunk. You know, we grew up in an environment like this.
David: And I think, I think up until we were probably, I don't know what age, maybe it was 19, we'd never kissed a girl unless we were drunk like, you know, other than your girlfriend because it was just such a social thing. Like you needed alcohol to go meet a girl and that was how it was. And it wasn't until we realised that you could meet girls that you were sober during the day that then we realised giving up alcohol was sustainable.
Stephen: Yeah, and I guess giving up alcohol meant we didn't have hangovers and it meant just a more even distribution of our energy that we weren't living for the weekend that it was.
David: And I think it was no conscious decision to give up alcohol. We gave it up for that marathon and then, which was only going to be two weeks and then we said, let's keep it going till Christmas, which was another month. And then that two weeks has ended up being 20 years just by chance, like there was no kind of black and white decision, I want to not drink alcohol. It just we felt more ourselves and didn't feel as much of a need to fit in and that kind of a sense, growing into yourself.
Stephen: And I think that's one of the challenges with the business and as the business has grown, like when you mentioned, did you have a two-year plan? Our minds don't work that way. Our minds are very much in the moment, problem solvers. Let's, let's lead, let's charge. Not necessarily strategic thinkers, not necessarily, you know, great managers. I'd say quite the opposite, appalling managers. But as the business has grown, fortunately, we've, we got kind of got to know our weaknesses pretty quickly and realised we're good at certain things and we're awful at other things. So can we bring in other people that balance out our weaknesses that are better at structure, better at order, better at strategic planning so that we can focus on the bits that we're good at and we can enjoy that and the balance, we can find that that harmony and that kind of nice dance within the business itself.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's really good that you have that sort of self-awareness that you can understand where your pitfalls are and I guess on one hand, you know, it's great to have someone to be your cheerleader so you can express yourself authentically, you can be vulnerable, you can be creative, you can say yes to most ideas that come into your head. But I guess what would you say would the downsides be of perhaps your relationship as identical twins working in a business which is obviously going to be high pressure considering you know you have so many people relying on you?
David: I think, think one of the main things is because you're so similar, you've got the same strengths and the same weaknesses. So number one, you live in your own echo chamber. So if he says, oh Dave, I think we should go this way, I'll go, oh, brilliant idea, Steve. And we'll go at it like a pair of blind fools. So we'll go, you know, you always have support whether the idea is good or bad. So often times we'd end up doing hair-brained things and people like we'd have so many what people would call failures and make so many mistakes.
Stephen: And I think when you mention that topic, self-awareness, that only has come out of falling into so many mistakes and so many holes. And I think part of the reason why we've been so comfortable making mistakes is that there's always been one of us to pull the other one out of the hole as it were.
David: Grab onto this rope and I'll pull you out. Right, let's go that way instead.
Stephen: Yeah, so I guess everyone learns differently and approaches things differently. Like you strike me Rupy as a much better, you know, thinker, more considered, more deliberate. We were more of the kind of ready, fire, aim.
David: Even like I can tell a story, even back when back 20 years ago when Steve was learning to be a snowboard instructor, I remember him telling me this so much. He said, like he was learning, he was on the the ramps, you know, where you're doing tricks. And he said, he ended up spending a full week going up this ramp and throwing himself off to learn this 360 spin. He said, I threw myself off for a full week. And this he said, my mate Connor sat there and watched me for the full week. He said, I must have tried it 200 times and I eventually I nailed it. He said, my friend watched me for the full week and he got up on his first attempt and he did it. And he just learned completely differently. Like and it's like we learn by trial and error, other people think and plan and organise and that's their skill set. Ours is just happens to be quite, you know, more as Stephen said, fire ready aim, that kind of thing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people would learn a lot by failing quicker and actually, you know, not being afraid of failure in itself because, you know, starting a business and failing and then restarting, you know, that's kind of like your MBA right there. It's, it's how you learn. There's only so many times or so many ways you could be told not to do it a certain way. You have to experience it yourself so you can go through that the pain of losing something and then picking yourself up and then trying something different. Um, and it sounds like, you know, because you almost have like this rope pulley system where someone falls in the ditch and the other person pulls them out. It, you know, it kind of works great. And I wonder like, you know, everyone can kind of see your successes and particularly on social media these days as well, everyone puts the successes up, you know, you have the books, the courses, the veg store and, you know, the cafes and stuff. What are the kind of failures that over that 16-year period now, people perhaps haven't seen or even forgotten about that, you know, you kind of learned from and has kind of propelled your business and your brand thereafter?
Stephen: Yeah, back a number of years ago, we kind of lost our way. It's very easy when you're running a business to get caught up in the ego metrics. You know, it's like back, I think it was back about four years ago, we borrowed a million and a half euro and we were planning on setting up a central production facility and opening a number of cafes. And it was during this kind of process, we realised every time, and we started supplying products to Waitrose in the UK. We hired a load more people and every time I'd go down to Pairville, which is, you were down there, Rupy, where our central production facility, I'd meet new people joining the team and every time I'd go down, there were new people and it just, it didn't feel like our business anymore. It felt more like I had a job. And I was kind of like, you know, this doesn't feel like my own business. This feels like work. This doesn't feel like fun anymore. So, so it was on that journey, I remember this lady, Liz Handy, we got an email from her. She was a photographer from London and she was doing this photography project on twins. And she was asking, would we be a part of it? We said, we'd love to. So she came over to meet us and she was in my garden taking photos and she had this, this fella assisting her, this fella called Charles Handy. And Dave went, you're not Charles Handy, like the Charles Handy. And he said, what do you mean? And Dave said, well, I did my thesis on this man, Charles Handy, this business philosopher. Is that you? And he said, yeah, that's me. And Dave's like, oh my god, that's you. And Charles Handy was this, I guess, very well-known business figure who was kind of a son of a chaplain, had this very philosophical approach towards business, had been on the board of BP, Shell, board of Body Shop. He was an accomplished businessman. And he got chatting to him and he said, Jesus, it sounds like you're at a bit of a crossroads, lads. Do you want to come over to my farm in Cambridge and we can discuss what is success? What do you really want? What's enough?
David: And and he was 86, so it wasn't like a 50-year-old, like he was like a wise, he was really like an elder. And we went across and we were like, can we bring our brother and our mum and dad as well? And we can all come across and have lunch. He said, yeah, great, absolutely. And we arrive in his his his house in the countryside in Cambridge and he cooks us a vegan meal, you know, which was so nice to start with. And then we go into his study and we have a conversation about what is success, what is enough, what gives you meaning, why did you start the business with this wise man that has no vested interest. And along that journey, we realised, like through those conversations, we realised that it's really, you know, we had got lost along the way and it was really time to backtrack a bit and why did we start the business again? And it was really about inspiring people to eat more fruit and veg and it was for a quality of life. It was to support the lifestyle we wanted to live and inspire others around us.
Stephen: Because we found out as the business grew, we found that we were on the road more, we were having to go to different cafes, we were, you know, you were in a lot of kind of board meetings and structure and strategic meetings and finance meetings and all this type of stuff. It's kind of like, Jesus, this feels awful. I'm not swimming the sea as much, I'm not bringing the kids to school. I'm kind of like, what are we doing this for? And it was only through that process, we kind of realised, you know, I want success for us is to have a lifestyle that we love. Like where I can get up in the morning, I can train with Dave or friends, I can go swim in the sea, I can have brekkie with my family, I can bring the kids to school, I can, you know, that type of thing. So go to work and do, you know, and go to work and work with people that I love and that I know.
Dr Rupy: That lucky interaction with someone who could clarify exactly what you wanted in life and business is amazing. But I think, you know, even having the humility to want to step back and downsize, if you can call it downsizing, the sort of aspirations that you initially had and actually restructure, you know, what is success for you and what does that look like and what do you truly want, which is the ability to swim in the sea every morning, see your kids, live a healthier lifestyle for you and mind and body and and also inspire people around you. You know, you can do those things without taking the huge loans and growing this monster business that has, you know, multiple outlets globally. You know, that's not for everyone. And sometimes I feel like the ego is very easy for people to get swapped up into.
David: Yeah, I think, think we're all, we have this cultural programming, particularly in the West, that more is better and bigger is better. And like, even though we consciously know, we've all, we can all read and go, yes, more money won't make me happy. But we all have these insecurities that we've kind of been fed this pill that if you have X amount of followers, if you have a business, if you have all these validations from society, then you're going to be enough. Then you're going to be happy. And we all have these programs. So even like we turned 41 just back at in December and like there's still those cultural programming within us that it's, you have to constantly catch yourself every day and go, like, no, I want to slow down. I want to be more present. I want to listen to the birds in the morning. I want to be able to smell the air. I want to be present with my kids. I want to, I, like for myself, when I look in the mirror each evening, I want to be content in myself beyond any of those metrics that society judges me by. And I think that's what, like our own definition of success has been changing over the last decade and where it's more into the simple things. And I guess Corona has fast-tracked it for everyone that it's, you know, we've, we can't have a lot of the things that we might have used previously for escapism or for, you know, show, or for show, you know, it's got back to basics for most people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, because I remember visiting, uh, both times actually, and we were, we went from cafe to different cafes and stuff. And I remember thinking, why you guys are like, your boundless energy is probably why you're able to do so much and be in multiple places all at the same time, it seems sometimes. But, you know, even for you guys to, to, to be able to say that as well, like, you know, we weren't, we weren't coping, we weren't enjoying it. Um, it says a lot. And I guess it leads me on to another question I wanted to ask about how you feel happiness has changed in terms of your personal definitions of it over the last 16 years, or whether it has changed at all or not, and it's just been you kind of reaffirming what happiness is to you guys. But has it changed at all and what is it to you guys?
Stephen: Not really. Like I know when we first started the Happy Pear in 2004, we were 24. And at that time, we were doing two hours meditation a day and we were very like, you know, like I'd look you in the eye and I could stare at you for minutes and like we were just really like iron solid in ourselves. We were really comfortable in who we were and we felt very, you know, we were strange, we were eccentric and we were totally delighted to be who we were, you know that way. And I guess as the business has kind of grown and developed, as Dave, as we kind of earlier mentioned, we kind of got, it's hard to not get caught up with the success and oh my god, you're doing brilliant, congratulations, lads. And our ego goes, oh, great, Jesus, let's do more. Let's, aren't we so special? We're so gifted and oh my god, aren't we brilliant? And I think it was on that journey, we kind of, we overextended ourselves and through that overextension, you know, we've had to close a cafe down, we've had to let a number of people go, you know, we've experienced a number of failures. So I think with that, it brings more humility and a greater sense of respect for what we're doing. And also, you know, this year we've kind of normally, um, every year around between Christmas and New Year's Eve, we'd kind of, I'd look back on my last year's goals and I'd write my goals for next year and what are my, you know, my key performance indicators and what am I, you know, what are we aiming for? And we'd be very, you know, achievement-oriented. Uh, but this year we literally put like one goal.
David: I put two.
Stephen: Okay, okay, two. Well, it was like to meditate more and to slow down. And that's literally it because I guess for us, we've been over the recent years, we've been reminded the importance of of the intrinsic success. That's true success.
David: The internal success.
Stephen: The internal success is in the sense of when I go to bed at night that I can close my eyes and I can feel like that was a good day. That was really nice. I, you know, I really enjoyed all my interactions with everyone and I felt like I had a positive.
David: And I would think like happiness is kind of an arbitrary thing. It comes, it goes, it wanes, you know, it can be subject to the weather, it can be subject to someone was nice to me, someone's not nice to me. But I think there's other emotions such as pleasant. I had a really pleasant day. I think pleasant is so underrated. And contentment. Pleasant and content. They're really wonderful things because whether it's rain and whether you win the lotto or whether not, it's like, ah, sure, it's grand, you know, like, and and that's more of what I would say happiness for me now is much more about the, and that's why like, I guess in our 20s, early 20s, we would have been, like, you know, when we back when we were drinking at 21, we would have loved a party, stay up all night and have like a big blowout. And that was like, you were, you had such highs and then such lows as a result. But I guess as you, and this is as we've got older anyway, it's been much more, we're kind of, people would see us as boring. We go to bed at 9:00, half 9:00, we get up at 5:00, we meditate, we train. Like it can be an element of Groundhog Day, but it's like, it's very conducive to a, you know, a stable, easy emotions where you're very consistent, your life is pleasant, life is, I'm content, I'm really, I'm enjoying myself. And that's, that's the priority to kind of not lose ourselves again in the the values of Western culture, which are, you know, we're all, we can all, it can come, wave in front of our face every now and again, like, oh, it's very alluring. It's like, oh, look at that. Oh, great. You're luring of more, of better, of. It's very seductive. It's very seductive and we can all be seduced like that. So I think for us, I think the importance of meditation and that sense of self-reflection provides a greater space for us to be more deliberate in how we focus our energies.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's such a good selection of words there, alluring. You know, it is very alluring, especially when you spend a lot of time looking at media on your phone or whatever to see what other people have and think, you know, okay, just if I achieve that or I hit that KPI, then I will reach happiness. But the sort of pursuit of contentment with everything in life doesn't sound as appealing, but it really does resonate with me because I kind of have a similar schedule to you guys where I go to sleep at 9:30, I wake up at 5:00, I do my meditation and I feel great. No matter what the stresses of the day might be, if I've had a busy day in A&E or I've had a stressful day in front of my computer, you know, being able to go to sleep and say that was a good day and I was satisfied, that should really be the goal rather than this massive high of like, I've achieved this or I've got this deal, I've made X amount of money or what insert success metric. Um, and on the note of of of happiness and success, you've done so many different things, right? You know, you've got products and and books and and courses. What's been the most gratifying for for you guys over the over your journey?
David: I think the simple things, like back uh, two years ago, we took a month, we took a week off in last September, it was two years ago. And we went, we put it up on social media that we wanted to go to loads of schools. And back when we first started, we used to go to, this is back in 2004, we used to go do smoothie demos and we used to go to all the local schools and it was so much fun to go and inspire kids. Like it really was and it was so genuine and authentic. And back last September, two years ago, we took a week off and we went and visited 20 schools.
Stephen: We put it up on social media that we're going to take a week off, we're going to do free talks in schools, encouraging people to eat more fruit and veg and how to be healthier.
David: And trying to inspire people. And we went to, we ended up going to 20 schools. This is from ranging from teenagers. We ended up in schools like 400 boys, teenage boys in a hall. And me and Steve with no microphone having to like, here you go, lads. It was like throwing like a bunch of meat to the sharks, like. And like, it was, it was so much fun, it was so challenging and so rewarding as well. Like you're, you're there, you know what it's like being a teenage boy and you've got an hour to try to inspire them in some way. And it's really good for your public speaking skills as well. And then the next week you're, the next day you're in a, you're in a school with a bunch of six-year-olds, you've got 300 six-year-olds and they just want to scream and laugh. So you're just a court jester. And then the afternoon, you're in an all-girls school and you're, and, you know, and that was a really rewarding week and it just reminds you what's important and really trying to inspire people in any way to just light up a little more and come into the light and move away from the darkness within all of us, you know.
Dr Rupy: Amazing. Yeah, I mean, like tough crowd, talk about uh, all boys and stuff. I can imagine how boisterous they are. Um, I want to talk about the courses, um, in particular because you started courses a while ago now. I remember you did, you were telling me about the heart course, you did a whole bunch of blood tests and you saw like before and after and all that kind of stuff. But since then, you've done tens of thousands of courses for people across the world, uh, as well as the the local areas as well. Like how did that start for you guys and and what have you learned along that journey?
David: So yeah, yeah, so for anyone who's listening, we have, like it started from the same way that we started the shop with this idea of trying to help people. And we had changed our diet and it was like, I wonder will this work with, you know, can we put this to the test? And it came from, I remember a lady walked into the shop. It was about 10 years ago. Yeah, it was 10 years ago. Mary Cal walked into the shop and said, Jesus, I've lost three stone on Weight Watchers. And Steve was like, Jesus, like they love, people love measuring the improvements of their health. And I was reading Dr. Dean Ornish's book about his lifestyle heart trial shown that he could in clinical trials, he reversed a lot of the indicators for heart disease. And Steve was like, wow, heart disease kills the most amount of people today. Like, can we try this cholesterol measuring thing and like put it to the test? Like put people on a plan. So it's like, great idea, Steve. So I remember it was like, we walked down that Monday morning to the local doctor. It was Brendan Cuddy who used to live across the road from us. And we knocked on his door and we're, how are you, Brendan? We're the lads from the Happy Pear. Do you know any nurses? And he says, yeah, Angela's next door. So we knocked on Angela's door and we tell her that we want to do this course. We want to reverse heart disease. We want to promise all the world and she's like, oh, lads, like feck off, would you? And we're, Angela, we'll pay you 50 quid, please. And she said, right, fine, just go away. And Angela, the nurse, said she'd help us. And we put up signs around the shop saying, reverse heart disease, free course, oh, improve your life, skinny, sexy, yummy, free, free. And we had 20 people sign up. And um, these people came along, like they were just normal people from Greystones that were probably a little bored and were probably curious about what these two crazy lads with the Happy Pear were doing. And they came along and Angela, the nurse, measured everyone's cholesterol, weight and blood pressure and they came upstairs to us. And this was 10 years ago, so there was no Netflix documentaries, there was no, you know, people were sceptical as hell. Like we didn't, you know, and they came upstairs to us and everyone had their arms crossed and they'd had their cholesterol done and it was like, what are these two weirdos going to do? And we, as chefs, we cooked all sorts of dishes because we knew when people taste the food, they might kind of go, okay, I'm up for this. So we kind of, we suggested that, okay, we're proposing a four-week plan eating porridge for breakfast, eating decent vegetable soups and salads for lunch and eating dals and chilis and pasta and whole grain bread. So it was a whole food plant-based diet for four weeks. And that's what we proposed. And um, and people said, yeah, oh, this, I don't know, I don't know. And we put on videos of doctors to validate it. And then we started passing around the food. And when people taste the food, it was like, oh, I could do this. I think I could do this. Those lentil things are all right. They're not so bad. And they came once a week, they came once a week for the four weeks and we had totally made up everything in this course. This was completely just, we were having a punt at it 10 years ago. And at the end, on the last night, Angela came back and we had, we had obviously been promising the moon and the stars to these people. And the last night, we didn't know it was going to work. And Angela measured everyone's cholesterol, weight and blood pressure again.
Stephen: And we were afraid if it didn't work, we were going to have a bit of an existential crisis, maybe have a breakdown, God knows what.
David: Maybe become accountants. But there was an average drop of cholesterol of 20%, um, an average drop of 4 kilos in weight across the 20 people, blood pressure regulated and it was, it was like a Walt Disney finish. And all these people obviously rushed home and they told all their friends and all their friends wanted to come do another one. So we had another one. And then we kept doing more and then the newspaper started writing them and they got too busy. So we built an online course. This is back eight years ago. And back eight years ago, people didn't like putting their credit cards into the internet. So it, it kind of went quiet for a bit and then a few years ago, they took off again and we started partnering with doctors where we have a happy gut course with a gastroenterologist and a dietitian and we have a happy shape one with a, a, like a weight loss kind of doctor and workouts and and we have a happy skin ones and we've got six.
Stephen: And a happy heart with a cardiologist.
David: And a vegan cooking and we've had now 50,000 people through our online courses from all over the world. And it's, it's all rooted in in, um, fruit, getting people to eat more whole foods and.
Stephen: And I guess it's amazing to see firsthand the impact of simple little lifestyle changes of simply changing your diet and how a radical shift we've seen in literally thousands and thousands of cases.
David: Yeah, time and time again. And I guess that's been, when you ask what's been rewarding, like that journey is, is been incredibly fulfilling.
Stephen: You can forget, it's easy to forget about what you're doing and then someone will come up to you like the other day, uh, on Christmas Eve, that fella Brendan came up to you and he was saying.
David: And he was just saying like, and he had his mask on and he was, he was probably 65 and he was saying like, I was sick as a dog, like, and I did your happy gut course and like, I, honestly, and he was like welling up, like, and this was a 65-year-old man and saying that his wife was so grateful and you're kind of going, wow, you forget that, you know, because it's online, you forget the impact when you meet people, certainly over the last year with Corona, we haven't met as many people who have been doing the courses, but um, it's very fulfilling and it's, you know, it's amazing just for anyone listening, just a reminder of simply, it's not about vegan or vegetarian, but to try to eat more whole foods because I could eat a vegan diet and eat vegan sausages, vegan ice cream and a bag of chips on the way home. And I'm a happy vegan. But I think for anyone listening who's concerned about health, I think the more you can move towards whole foods, the more beneficial it can be.
David: And we turned, like before we started, we were talking about books and we, at the start of lockdown, this is back in March, we realised we've had all these people through the courses, like we've never actually sat down and turned this into a book. So we sat down in March of this year and wrote every, you know, put all the learnings from having 50,000 people through the plans and put it into a really digestible book and we've just released that there before Christmas called The Happy Health Plan. So.
Dr Rupy: I've got it right here. I've been making my way through it. It's uh, that's meant to be the learnings of everything, you know, try to make it as simple. That's the cliff notes. Honestly, I think it's, it's fantastic because the way you've laid it out is essentially that it's from the learnings of the thousands of people that have done the course in digestible bits of information with something actionable at the end as well. And, you know, it's great to see Dr. Alan who's helped you with the gut course and a whole bunch of other dietitians get involved in this and I think, you know, it adds another level of credibility to the courses, but also, you know, you're, you're tapping into that power of community, whether it be online or in person. And I think that's very special. That alone, aside from the food is super, super important when it comes to, um, changing people's happiness. Um, and and that's exactly what you do with the courses, man. So it's, it's a fantastic book as well. Honestly, I'm super proud of you guys.
David: Thanks, Rupy.
Stephen: Thanks, Rupy. Yeah, I think community, I think community is one of the most important things. Like you'd know yourself from the blue zones, you know, if they, the blue zones for anyone listening, typically the five areas in the planet where the most, some of the longest living people on the planet. And they don't live these long, healthy lives because they've superhuman genes or that they, you know, they eat ashwagandha every day and they bathe in ashwagandha oil. But there's nine typical lifestyle factors that dictate why they live such long, happy lives. And if they were to boil it down to one single one, it's social network and community. It's to try to create an environment where the healthy choice is the easy choice. So I think for anyone listening who wants to kind of adopt more healthy lifestyle habits, the more you can create an environment that's conducive and easy to make those choices, the easier it is to sustain.
David: And even, even back like, you know, we, we've often get asked, how the heck are you motivated? How do you stay motivated? But we've kind of spent the last couple of decades setting up our environment where it's the easy choice is the healthy choice. Like it actually is. Like we've somehow subconsciously created an environment or life has very nicely created this environment where the easy choice is the healthy choice.
Stephen: To eat a plant-based diet, to swim in the sea, you have friends that are all into exercise, you know, you have friends that want to talk about things, there's friends that support you when you feel tired. So I think the more we can all create that environment, the easier it is to be healthier and happier.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And for those of you who don't know, um, the boys do a morning swim every morning in your hometown of Greystones and it's become a community thing now because I've jumped in the sea a couple of times. It's absolutely freezing, but it's become one of those things that you kind of just like, you have to do it because everyone else is doing it. And then when you've done it, it's like, oh no, this is why I do it because I feel great afterwards. But I and that should definitely be the title of your next book, The Happy Environment and all about how you create your happy environment, your friend circle, your food, you make everything the default option, whether it be exercise or meditation, all that becomes the default option and then you allow health to thrive.
Stephen: I like that idea, Rupy. Very good. That's a good one, Rupy. I'll have that one for free, man. Thanks. Oh, that's good, Rupy. I'm quiet there for a second.
David: But in terms of, it's the same way that you can take a plant, like even in our house, we can take a plant that's not doing well in one corner and if we move it to somewhere else where the light is better, it's got more space. Like we have a ton of plants in our house and I realised that the environment is so important, like to, and it's the same way that, you know, they've done lots of studies. We don't live together just in case this is Dave and Sab's house. And the same way that uh, they do lots of these migrant studies where they've taken people from that they become the product of their environment. Their genetic, their life expectancy is the product of their environment of say they were in a negative environment and their life expectancy was a lot lower and then they moved to a more affluent space where there's a higher lifestyle, healthier lifestyle factors, their life, their genetic age goes up dramatically, their, you know, I think you know what I'm, you're doing a good job. Good effort. You get the sentiment.
Dr Rupy: We get the sentiment, totally. So if there are any sort of tips to leave our listeners with, you know, we talked about a healthy foundation, a plant-focused diet, but a whole food plant-based diet. Um, we've looked at, you know, sleep patterns and all the rest of it. Are there any sort of like cherries on top that you've kind of found along your way as well that you have now become rooted into your daily routines?
Stephen: I think like if there were three superfoods that I was going to mention to anyone, most people would think, oh, it's ashwagandha or it's, it's turmeric root, but I think it's laughter, I think it's joy and it's friendship. And I think there's something that we tend to, like we're often consumed with health. Did I get my 10,000 steps or did I do my gratitude journal or did I do my mindfulness or no, no, no, no, I didn't have my chaga latte or whatever I'm meant to have or do my yoga. But everyone listening has heard someone that's lived to the age of 90 that literally didn't eat a vegetable, didn't know what the hell yoga was. They smoked a pack of cigarettes a day, they drank a bottle of whiskey a day. They weren't healthy, but they laughed a lot. There was a lot of joy, there was a great sense of purpose and there was a wonderful loving environment. So I think health is multi-faceted and I think to focus on joy, to focus on laughter, to focus on friendship, I think are so enriching and so vital for us as humans to thrive. And to, yes, have fun.
David: That was a good one. I like that. I kind of went big on that one. Like if that was, if I was putting a soundtrack to that, I'd be putting like, I'd be putting like some kind of stadium rock, like, yes, we can do it. That's the end of the movie. Let's like, let's get all the baddies.
Dr Rupy: Oh, boys, it's been a pleasure as always. And I think that's a fantastic way to sort of, um, sprinkle a bit of joy into everyone's day listening to this. But yeah, the joy, laughter, I completely agree with that. It's, uh, perhaps something that isn't talked about enough. Um, but, uh, but you guys bring it in bundles across all your touch points. So keep on doing what you're doing, boys. You're really hitting the mission.
Stephen: Thanks, Rupy.
David: Thanks, Rupy. Thanks for having us. You're a legend.
Stephen: That was great crack.
