Dr Simon Paul: We tend to kind of look at those different debates and conversations and say, hey, listen, we can join the dots up here. You know, there's a study from New York showing that people on the Mediterranean diet actually had larger brain volumes, larger brain sizes in their 80s who were on the Mediterranean diet. You know, there's a study from, you know, a study about these polyphenols, then there's also the Predimed study. And hey, hang on a minute, let's bring this all together and and and start to get a message out there that that that that there's something going on that our patients and and and the public really need to really need to to to to do. And then if we can communicate it in a really enjoyable way like you do in the kitchen, even better, because then that connects and helps people to to understand how to how to how to make it work for them.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine, and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: Over the years, you'll have heard me frequently talking about the Mediterranean way of eating and extra virgin olive oil. And today on the show, I'm delighted to be joined by an expert in all things to do with olive oil and the history of a Mediterranean diet in general, Dr Simon Paul. Everything you need to know about olive oil is in today's episodes. Its origins, its therapeutic effects, the impact on heart and brain health, its potential anti-cancer and weight maintenance effects, as well as the alchemy of olive oil and food. Today's podcast was absolutely fascinating. For me, I learned so much from Dr Paul, who is a Cambridge-based GP and an internationally renowned authority on the science and application of the Mediterranean diet and lifestyle. He's also co-author of the Gourmand prize-winning book, The Olive Oil Diet, and speaks regularly on the subject of communication and change management in population and individual nutritional health. On the podcast, you'll learn about what the origins of olive oil are, how the oil is produced, its regenerative impact on soil and climate health, the types of phenols in olive oil, olive and heart health, as well as Alzheimer's, weight loss, and also the grading process of olive oil and what to look for, plus the smoking point of olive oil, something I'm asked about a lot. Enjoy today's episode. I'm sure you'll find it fascinating.
Dr Rupy: Simon, thank you so much for making the time this morning. I know you're a busy GP in Cambridge, so it's fantastic to be able to talk to someone who loves olive oil probably more than me, I would say. And I didn't think that was possible.
Dr Simon Paul: That's an absolute pleasure, Rupy. Yes, that's an absolute pleasure.
Dr Rupy: So I want to dive down into this because you are a practicing general practitioner. What piqued your interest in nutrition and diet in in general? Because from now it's become quite trendy, I guess, to be a lifestyle GP or someone who's interested in lifestyle medicine, but you've been bestowing the virtues of the Mediterranean diet and olive oil for a number of years now. So where was your beginnings in this journey?
Dr Simon Paul: Yeah, well, that's a really good question. I mean, it began really for me, gosh, about 15 to 20 years ago. My general practice career spans 30 years, nearly, and it began about 15, 20 years ago when I just started to see some research papers coming out in the British Medical Journal, in the New England Journal of Medicine, really prestigious journals, showing the power of the Mediterranean diet. And actually, there were some comparisons of the Mediterranean diet with, for example, medications for pre-existing heart disease and really demonstrating just the power of lifestyle and in particular, the the evidence, which I think is now overwhelming and compelling about the benefits of of the Mediterranean diet. And and you're right that increasingly, thankfully, GPs, doctors like yourself are becoming interested in lifestyle lifestyle medicine. And for me, the Mediterranean diet is not a fashion. It it's absolutely been, well, it's been around there for millennia. I mean, you know, it started with the cultivation of the olive tree amongst agriculture in the in the in the fertile, you know, fertile crescent 3,000, 10,000 years ago, you know, a long time ago. So I became interested and I started to advocate it to my patients. And you know, although of course this is anecdotal, they came back with better numbers. They came back with better blood pressure, they were losing weight, they were feeling better on the Mediterranean diet. And of course, that's mirrored by by much of the research. And then I just started digging deeper and really beginning to understand a little bit more about in particular the role of extra virgin olive oil at the heart of the Mediterranean diet. And so I just started to to actually started to speak to my patients and they said, well, look, we we need a little bit more time. So so can you come to the library at 6 o'clock or the village hall? And so I I kind of cut my teeth on Women's Institute and Rotary Club talks in the villages. And and and since then have have been presenting and and talking and now I'm very privileged to to talk in international conferences about how we communicate the Mediterranean diet to patients.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, it's it's incredible how many times I hear stories that mirror that from other GPs in practicing doctors who started having more open, honest conversations with patients and then found themselves running late in clinic. I remember I used to I used to find myself running really late in clinic as a as a trainee general practitioner back in 2012 and and I got known as the the doctor that would talk to the patients about diet. And then all of a sudden you get all these these inquiries from random patients and and patients from other GPs and stuff. So it's brilliant. And and you mentioned international conferences there. You're part of something, not only a council member of the Royal College of GPs, but you're part of an initiative called the True Health Initiative. I wonder if you could talk a bit about that.
Dr Simon Paul: Yeah, so the True Health Initiative is an international collaboration of of of of medics, but also chefs, dietitians, other people involved particularly, you know, in in in the public around around the communication of of lifestyle medicine. So it's it's based in the States and I was invited really at its inception to be to be part of that group following a a conference I attended at at Boston, in Boston where we we tried to bring lots of different nutritional tribe doctors together, you know, the the the the person who'd written the first book on the Paleo diet and and and Walter Willett from Harvard who who who's very much of the sort of low saturated fat mantra. And we tried to get everybody together to agree some some basic principles that we could all sign up to around nutrition because of course there are quite a lot of food fights that go go on amongst doctors and experts, which is which is something I think that needs to be leveled out so that we can communicate much more clearly to patients. So it's about communication and the THI, the True Health Initiative is about trying to get those messages out about real food, about eating well, about looking after yourself. And and really very much aligned to the work that you do, which is which which is which is so influential and which I think really helps and supports people because we know that 70% of of chronic diseases are potentially preventable through lifestyle measures. And with that kind of that kind of promise of of lifestyle interventions like diet and other other aspects to a healthy lifestyle, we know it's so important.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, and that really does resonate with me. It reminds me of the the TED talk that I recently gave in November 2019 in Bristol, all about how when you look at all the different diets, whether you choose paleo or vegan, Mediterranean, you know, and Mediterranean is not really a diet and I think we'll go into that in a bit more. But the underlying principles are very similar. It's removing a lot of the processed, high sugar, high energy items and introducing whole foods, real food, cooking from scratch, going a lot slower. And and I remember it reminds me of the study that was conducted by I think it was Professor Gardner at Stanford, the A to Z study, which followed people on a chosen diet over 12 months, whether it be a low saturated fat or low fat in general, Mediterranean, I think they had a vegan arm as well. And all the results were the same at 12 months. And the best predictors of whether a person was going to lose weight, which was the primary endpoint, was how likely they were to stick to the diet. So it really goes down to individualizing and personalizing what people preference and actually, you know, encouraging them to to stick with a way of living and a way of eating that works for them.
Dr Simon Paul: I think you're right. And I think that's why some of the very highly restrictive diets and some of the some of the let me politely say unusual diets are not sustainable for people. And what people really need is advice about real food, about enjoying food, about celebrating food, and then actually, I think a lot of it falls into place then around people getting an understanding and a taste for for what it means to to eat proper real food. But the Mediterranean diet, I I would contend, supercharges that. I think there are some elements of the Mediterranean diet which are really quite special. It it starts on the principles of real food, very clearly. But there are some, for example, food combinations which give it a particularly powerful effect, it seems. So so so the Mediterranean diet is of course my my tribe. But but but but I think it's very interesting because if if if I talk to to all the the various pugilists, the fighters in in in in the food fights in in the macronutrient, what I call the macronutrients wars, you know, the the low carb, the low fat. If you talk to all of them, at the end of the day, they all kind of agree that the Mediterranean diet is is actually a very good diet. And oh yes, well, my low carb version of the Mediterranean diet looks like this. Or or my low fat diet version of the diet looks like this, but it's all around the Mediterranean. Or I 800 calories a day on day one or two or fast. Oh, and then when we eat, let's eat Mediterranean. So I think it is quite a a common theme on people and and that's because essentially the evidence is is so overwhelming really gathered really since Ancel Keys started that that that process of gathering that evidence when he observed the the healthy lifestyles and the longevity of people living in in in Crete and in in Calabria and Southern Italy.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, I love the way you described the Mediterranean diet as more of a lifestyle rather than just the plate of food because it really does go to the food combinations, but also the way you eat the food, who you eat the food with, and the sort of other activities that are actually quite socially cohesive. They're quite encouraging of of of play and and and communication outside of of just what you put on your plate.
Dr Simon Paul: You're absolutely right. And there are a number of themes within that. So there are themes around if you eat more slowly, you tend to eat overall fewer calories. If you celebrate food and value it, then you waste less food. It's a more sustainable diet. There's a sort of conviviality around around eating together, which again has an effect on your on your metabolism, on the actually the way you process your food. And if you look at the so-called blue zones, which you may have covered in some of your your podcasts and and referred to, you know, these are areas where they have particularly a particularly um numbers of centenarians, number of people in their in their 90s or who who reach 100. And really there are some very common themes around diet and lifestyle, but also around around community and around sharing, which are also really really important and about understanding and and and respecting food and and the environment around us, which I think is is is good not just for our lifestyle, but it's good for our planet and and and therefore good for health because anything that's good for the planet has to be good for health in the long term.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah. And I think, you know, anything that supercharges those sort of values of sustainability and and circular food systems is is definitely a win. Um you mentioned, you know, how long olive oil has has been around and references to it as well of thousands of years. I thought we could start by just going into what is olive oil, um how it's produced and and where its sort of origins are.
Dr Simon Paul: Sure. So so essentially, if I can just put that into context because the Mediterranean diet is a is a many regional diets around the Mediterranean. So you can take a Mediterranean diet from Italy or from Spain or from North Africa, um and they will all have distinct differences. Some will have alcohol, wine with them, others for religious observance reasons, they they won't have alcohol or wine. Some will have a lot of garlic, the French and and so on. If you look at the common denominator of all those regional Mediterranean diets, there are herbs and spices, there are um plentiful colored vegetables and fruits, there are whole grains, there are nuts and seeds and and meat eaten relatively less often. But the common denominator really is the combination of vegetables and extra virgin olive oil. That's what and and the Mediterranean diet can actually be defined really as being the Mediterranean itself, which is where the olive tree grows. And where the olive tree ceases to grow, ceases to become a Mediterranean Mediterranean region. Um and the olive tree itself um was was first cultivated as I as I've said many thousands of of years ago um in in what is now modern day Syria, Iran. And and then because the oil from the the the the the fruit of the tree was so valuable um for food, but but also um when it was not edible, uh for for fuel for lamps, uh the the Phoenicians spread the olive tree with their trading routes uh across the Mediterranean from from from modern day Lebanon to North Africa and to and and to Spain and Greece and and Italy and planted the olive tree and it's of course become um very much central to the diet. And so olive olive oil is is fundamental at the heart. And essentially it's processed, it's the fresh fruit juice of the of the olive. So it's distinct from other seed oils or vegetable oils because it's actually a fresh fruit juice. So it's it's quite expensive to produce, which is why you you've got to understand that you've got to pay a little bit more for a decent extra virgin olive oil because there's a lot that goes into it. It's not an industrial uh uh process for for good extra virgin olive oil. We can talk about refined olive oil if you want, but that's that's essentially a processed product. Um what is really key for health is extra virgin olive oil. And this is from the pressing of the of the olives to extract the juice uh under conditions which minimize uh degradation, which minimize breakdown, which minimize oxygen, heat and light. So a good olive farmer will nurture his trees um through the winter uh um uh through through the the first winter and then into the into the spring and summer and then in the autumn uh will harvest, uh will press the olives uh as quickly as possible following following harvesting uh and and extract the the oil and put it in very large um stainless steel uh containers with nitrogen sealing to keep those uh keep the the the dangers of oxygen light and heat away from extra virgin olive oil, which will give it its freshness, uh it'll give it its fantastic taste, um and it'll also preserve the all-important polyphenol antioxidants, which are broken down if it's exposed to uh air and and and heat and light. Uh and then when you get your your your final extra virgin olive oil, probably in a tin or in your your um darkened bottle, uh stored in a cool place, again, to to to to preserve it. Um they have a very long shelf life, extra virgin olive oil, but it is best preserved away from from from the effects of light and and heat and oxygen. Then you'll get your really super tasty uh uh extra virgin olive oil, which will have have a fruitiness, perhaps perhaps you'll taste fresh grass in it, um but you will also interestingly get a little bit of bitterness and a little bit of pungency. And what's really interesting is that pepperyness and the bitterness actually reflect the level of polyphenol antioxidants in the oil. So those are really good for health. So we can talk about extra virgin extra virgin olive oil in the context of these polyphenol antioxidants, but essentially you can recognize them by tasting an oil that's fruity, but there's also got this bitterness and the pungency, the pepperyness, what makes you what makes you actually cough when you when you just have extra virgin olive oil by itself, which are positive attributes which denote a really healthy oil.
Dr Rupy: The way you're describing that, I can almost feel in the back of my mouth what I what I taste whenever I try an olive oil for the first time, a good quality one anyway. And before we go into the antioxidants, the polyphenols, which I find the most fascinating attributes of of olive oil, you touched on provenance there and and where the um the olive tree originated. Now you have olive oil farmers um that have extended throughout the Mediterranean region, but you also get some globally as well. Are there significant differences in those different types of of olive trees? Do do you find that it has to be one of those products where you have to get it from certain Mediterranean regions to to have a true olive oil experience?
Dr Simon Paul: No, there are some really great olive oils being produced from from all over the world. And I think that's really exciting because one of the things about the Mediterranean diet and in particular the olive tree is that it's an extremely sustainable uh uh product. So um so for example, the production of 1 liter of extra virgin olive oil sinks 10 kg of carbon. It it gives back to the planet. Um uh it it can be grown in places that other crops can't be grown because it it responds really well to harsh and arid conditions. Um and so the expansion of the Mediterranean diet production areas to Australia, so the southern hemisphere like South Africa, Australia, um Chile is a great producer now, um as well as the northern hemisphere, which includes our Mediterranean region, uh but also uh California in particular. And so so across the 40 degree parallel north and south, uh it it the olive tree will thrive and flourish. And of course, we've always seen the evolution. I mean, the Mediterranean diet has evolved over millennia with the introduction of the tomato from from from the from the states, with the introduction of of of of the pomegranate and and indeed garlic from from from Asia, from you know, from from the Indian subcontinent. And so this evolution of the Mediterranean diet and we we're just part of that part of that bringing it to other parts of the world, which I I I think is great because we we can then access local sustainable uh products um in terms of actually helping and supporting the planet because it's such an important um health-giving uh oil and it's frankly, it's it's the only liquid fat I I I don't have butter in my house. I just have extra virgin olive oil. And and it's so good for you. I I think there's great promise that we can you know, well, I say we, the producers can supply the world with increasing quantities of this fantastic product.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, the fact that it's a almost a regenerative plant um and it's a carbon sink is super exciting. Um but I love the way that you you're nodding the other elements of a Mediterranean diet of what we what we think is classical Mediterranean but actually has its roots in Asia and different um continents around the world. Um the spice route especially, you know, we think of saffron or pepper, paprika, these are all come from from different areas as a result of colonization. So it's uh it's very, very interesting history.
Dr Simon Paul: It is fascinating and it's fascinating to hear that about how that's kind of potentially rooted in some some cultural heritage around that. But you are right, we need to be careful. We need to absolutely base it on science. So if you hear a the latest Hollywood celebrity saying that you almost always must combine green things with purple things and you must then then we need to take that with a great deal of skepticism. But but but some of the science around food combinations is really revealing. I mean it is it is fascinating. And we can actually talk a little bit about that when we when we talk about um about the smoke point if you like because actually cooking with extra virgin olive oil is I I used to say that cooking with extra virgin olive oil was safe. Now I say it's desirable.
Dr Rupy: Which is a distinction.
Dr Simon Paul: You know, because there's some alchemy that goes on which we're just getting a whiff of in terms of the science. There's some real alchemy that goes on in terms of the interactions between foods when we cook them and some positive benefits of when you cook with extra virgin olive oil.
Dr Rupy: Well, let let's talk about that. I think we've sort of teased the listener enough about the smoking point. So, smoking points of of olive oil and whether it's safe to cook with olive oil, particularly extra virgin olive oil. Um let let's discuss that. What what is your opinion on on that?
Dr Simon Paul: Okay. So first of all, I'd like us to pretend for a moment that the smoke that the smoking point is relevant. Okay. And then we can then we can discuss why it's not relevant. But let's pretend for a moment that the smoking point is relevant. So when people say to me, can you cook with extra virgin olive oil? My first answer is, well, you must be able to because what else do they do in the Mediterranean? So, in other words, the Mediterranean diet could not possibly work as a healthy diet if it was unsafe to cook with extra virgin olive oil. Can you imagine if I got off my cruise ship, when we're all traveling again, if I got off my cruise ship and I got off at the little island of Ikaria in in Greece and I and I climbed up the hill and I I I sat next to my my my my my my great granddad, the great great granddad, the shepherd with his crook sitting on the on the bench at the top of the hill. I'm out of breath by this stage, of course. Can you imagine if I went went to him and I said, well, of course, you know, I cook with coconut oil because of the smoking point. He would laugh me all the way down the hill, wouldn't he? Because the only thing they use is extra virgin olive oil. And there he is, you know, aged 100. If it was not safe to cook in extra virgin olive oil, the Mediterranean diet wouldn't work. Anyway, so so the smoke point, the smoke point is described to be the point at which fats break down and through oxidation, through the chemistry of heat and oxygen, uh into trans fats, uh into uh compounds called polar compounds, which may be uh carcinogenic, may uh cause cancer. So there is a point at which if you heat an oil, it can break down into harmful products. Now, um so we ask the question, what is the smoke? If we believe that there is a single smoke point, which as I say there isn't, but if we were to believe that, what is I I then ask patient or people who are asking me this question, I say, okay, so what is the smoke point of an extra virgin olive oil? And they say, I don't know. So I say, okay, well, let me help you. It's about 210 degrees centigrade. So that's for for your American listeners, I I I can't translate into Fahrenheit, but yeah, in European or UK, it's 210 degrees centigrade for a good extra virgin olive oil. And the antioxidants in the extra virgin olive oil will protect it during the heating. So it's important to get a good extra virgin olive oil, which is rich in antioxidants to cook with as well as for your health. So it's a polyphenol rich, uh uh coughing, peppery, slightly bitter oil which you cook with. Um okay, and my next question to to to to the punter is, so what temperature do you cook at? And of course, they often don't know. So I say, okay, so let me help you with that. You generally, you sauté at about 160 degrees, you might roast at 170 degrees centigrade, maybe 180 degrees. If you're going for a deep fat fry, if you want to, it's about 190 degrees. So you're not near the smoke point of a good extra virgin olive oil anyway. If you hit this supposed smoke point, you would actually know because it produces an acrid, unpleasant smell. And food in the oil takes the temperature down and you know, in general, we don't cook above smoke points. We don't want to, we don't like to, it's not nice. Our body tells us it's not a good thing to do. So, don't worry about the smoke point, you'd recognize it if it exists and you don't cook at temperatures anywhere near it anyway. So then we can then talk about the fact that the smoke point doesn't actually exist. There is no single point at which the oil suddenly breaks down. The question is, if you heat and a more sensible question is, if you heat an oil at normal cooking temperatures, what breakdown products will you have after a period of time? And there was a study done in 2018, published in the journal Acta Scientifica, which lined up extra virgin olive oil with all the other common cooking oils, took them up to 220 degrees centigrade as it happens briefly, and then brought them down to 180 degrees centigrade and left them for six hours and then measured these polar compounds, uh and trans fats afterwards and found that they were actually lowest in the extra virgin olive oil. They were higher in canola oil or or rape seed oil, they were higher uh in in in sunflower oil, uh which is not surprising because that has a has a low uh point of change. And they were they were healthiest in the extra virgin olive oil. And the antioxidants retained in the oil at the end were highest in the extra virgin olive oil by a mile because extra virgin olive oil is by far and away the highest antioxidant oil you can buy because seeds in general don't need high levels of of antioxidants because they are inert and they and they don't need to exist in this dynamic relationship with the environment that the olive fruit needs to. So it was rich in antioxidants at the end of the cooking, there were very few breakdown products and clearly it had been safe to cook with it. And so that's been shown and and published. So that's the that's the conversation about about about the cooking. But not only is it safe, but as I say, it's desirable because of some of this some of this chemical alchemy which I I call it that goes on when you cook with extra virgin olive oil.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so I mean, I'm I'm so glad you you've told that whole story because I think anyone who asks me about this question again, I'm just going to ask them to go to this point in time during this podcast and listen for about five minutes so everyone's got it clear that a very good quality extra virgin olive oil is completely safe and in fact desirable to cook with. Um the alchemy that goes on, I think it's it's incredible and it sounds very, very interesting and warrants future study. When when it comes to choosing a good quality extra virgin olive oil, bar the cough test, and I and I can't imagine many supermarkets or stores would be very happy about me opening every one of the bottles and then trying little snifters of them and and and measuring or counting the number of times I cough. But um what what kind of things should people be looking for in in terms of a good quality extra virgin olive oil that obviously will will cost more than your average cooking oil?
Dr Simon Paul: Yeah, okay. So, um extra virgin olive oil um itself is distinct from olive oil or light olive oil. These are refined products. So in other words, when they have uh the pressing of the olive juice and the product at the end doesn't meet the strict standards for extra virginity, which is about purity, which is about a sensory taste, but also a chemical test, which has to be undertaken for each of the producers. When it doesn't pass that, they ship it off to a an industrial refinery, uh pump it full of hexane, heat it up, strip it of all its antioxidants, make it into a tasteless, odorless liquid, and then they put about 5 or 10% extra virgin olive oil to give it a bit of a taste, and they call it olive oil. So olive oil is a refined industrial product, which I would not recommend. Always go for extra virgin olive oil. It's the first is the first key because that's the one with these powerful antioxidant and anti-inflammatory uh uh elements into it in it. Most producers are incredibly proud these days of of of their of their producers. And it takes, I believe me, I I I have I have been under the Tunisian sun hand harvesting an olive tree this time last year. And um I I was teased I I was teased so much about how slow I was and and I after after two hours of of of of what I thought was really, really hard work, I I was um I was uh I was told off by the by the by the women of the village for my weakness and my and my lack of lack of fortitude. It it takes a lot to produce a really good extra virgin olive oil. You've got to you've got to you've got to harvest it, you you you've got to you've got to take it to the to the mill, you've got to press it really quickly and and and and producers are proud. So the closest you can get, I mean, like any food, really, the close the closer you can get to the producer in terms of how it feels when you look at the bottle, when you when you look at where it comes from, the closer you can get, the more likely you are to get a really high quality product. So, if you go and look for an extra virgin olive oil, go for one which is first of all, at least regional. So, so don't go for a product of many countries, go for one which is Greek or Spanish or or or or or or Turkish, you go for one which comes from a particular country. If there is a family producer behind it and you can see that it's a that it's produced by and it's got some some some I mean, clearly, you know, like everybody else in this world, extra virgin olive oil producers are good at marketing. But you will see so you'll see some good marketing, but actually if you can really get a sense that that that this is produced in a small area by small producers, a cooperative perhaps, or even just by one producer, then you'll know that you're going to get a really good quality product before you taste it. Then when you taste it, just introduce yourself to the idea that it it can be a little bit like wine. Now, we could get a little bit um am I allowed to say arsey on on top of it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, go for it.
Dr Simon Paul: Okay. We could get a little bit arsey about this and we could kind of get get a little bit a little bit like wine buffs. You know, and and and for me, it's a beautiful food and so I I I don't necessarily want to go down that line, but if you take if you if you smell it, if it's like fresh cut grass, if it's got some herbaceous tones, I mean, we could go on, we could talk about almond notes and we could talk about ripe banana. Oh no, no, no, not ripe banana. Green banana. Oh yes, yes. We can argue about whether it's green banana or. So this is this is what we get to with tasting. But also go for a little bit of bitterness, which when you taste it on its own, it can be quite quite forceful, bitterness and pungency, that pepperyness and that cough. When you put it on your food, it it won't give you that same bitterness and pungency. It it will it will modify and it will be really beautiful. I promise you. But but but you can taste that and those are the polyphenols. So I I would taste those. And in terms of what you spend, I mean, again, you know, it's about it's about choice really, isn't it? Because I have conversations with people and I say, well, okay, so this is usually after the smoke point conversation. So they're not very happy with me by this stage. So so I I I say, okay, so when you they say, oh, it's expensive. And I say, okay, so when you go to when you go to the to the to the supermarket, you know, what do you what do you buy on a weekly basis and what do you buy on a on a on a monthly basis? And it turns out that people think of olive oil as being a monthly purchase and they think that a 500 mil bottle should get them through a month. But they think a 750 mil bottle of Shiraz should probably get them through a night. You know, and that that Australian wine which costs, you know, 7 pounds is for tonight, but the olive oil has to last me a month. Now, you know, and and and actually when people when people were shown in a study in in in New York, people who really had food poverty issues, when people were given a budget and actually told how to cook, um and you know, I'm sure that you're aware of this, Rupy, in terms of your your kitchen, um in terms of the work that you do, when people are are helped and understood about food literacy, about cooking literacy, about cooking with food, actually, it's cheaper to have a Mediterranean diet than it is to have a processed standard American diet, but you've got to get your head around the fact that in order to benefit from the Mediterranean diet, the research shows that people are consuming between 30 and 50 mils each of extra virgin olive oil per day. So that means that we're getting through quite a lot of extra virgin olive oil. So my final piece of advice is if you can, if people can go online and get a big can, 3 liters, 5 liters, something like that of a good regional oil, um um you know, that comes with with some some some good reviews, um then then get that for the for the kitchen, um use it every day. And then if you want to buy a really special, you get get into this taking this testing malarkey and you you want to really become a connoisseur, you can have a have a have a a nice special one to drizzle on afterwards. But you know, it for me, it's key to get 3 liter or 5 liter cans into people's pantries, into people's larders, into people's kitchens, because because that's the way you're going to be using it for everything. And that's the way to do it economically, because actually, you can get it for, you know, 7 pounds sterling, you know, 8 euros, $10 per liter um um of of extra virgin olive oil, which when you think about how what that's doing for your health, actually, it for me, it's a really important thing. And so and I think it's really important that the Mediterranean diet is not just a preserve of the middle classes. Um and I'm really passionate about that, um that we don't just say, oh well, you know, I'm going to go to my middle class supermarket and buy my middle. You know, I think it's really important that everybody can get get get get get access to this. And so although extra virgin olive oil is more expensive than vegetable oils, I think it's about you know, helping people to understand the priorities and what they can do with it and how they can cook fresh uh uh fresh produce uh in a way that makes it economical, which the science supports can be done.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned all that, um Simon, because one of the things that we teach in culinary medicine at UCL and Bristol is um food insecurity and the magnitude of the issue in this country, let alone other countries. Um and the other thing that I've just been working on is a BBC food series that's going to be on iPlayer in January 2021 called Thrifty Cooking in the Doctor's Kitchen, where we're actually teaching the principles of essentially a Mediterranean diet with good quality fresh vegetables. And we've actually got the price of each portion of food down to 89p, I believe there was the final amount. So it is doable, but it is to do with food literacy and food education and being thrifty with where you get your ingredients from and where you invest as well. And that and I think, you know, after today's conversation, I think everyone's going to be running to the top shelves of the oil departments and whatever their supermarkets are going for those those good quality extra virgin olive oils. Um and and I'm glad you mentioned about the the range of different olive oils out there and and the degree of processing. Um right at the start, you mentioned early harvest, I believe, um the extraction methods, cold pressing or mechanical extraction. Are those the kind of key messages that you'd want to look for on the bottle as well as the single family estate or or or or the number of um different types of of oil that are used in the in the product?
Dr Simon Paul: Yeah, so on the label, it's quite interesting because um extra virgin olive oil um itself means something because it there are standards set for that. Um and although there was a lot of publicity a few years ago about the possibility of fake uh extra virgin olive oil being around, actually, it's been shown that that's not really a problem uh in most Western countries these days. Most extra virgin olive oil you see will be reliably extra virgin. Um so extra virgin is really important. Cold pressed is quite interesting because um and first pressed because those are now really pretty much mechanical, pretty much um marketing uh uh phrases. So by definition, in order to get extra virgin oil, you have to you have to press it less than 24 degrees centigrade. I think I think the law may be 27, but there are the the press will do it inevitably, modern presses do it at at that temperature. So it's it's always cold pressed and it's always first pressed uh to get extra virgin olive oil. Um these these date back to the time where you used to run the oil through the first time uh and then you used to take what was left from that and then run it through a second time to get your your much lesser grade uh non-extra virgin oils. Um and then they might be described as virgin oils if they if they were lower grade. So extra virgin olive oil has to be uh um I mean the the the criteria are are based on its taste, so you have sensory panels. Um and uh and so you have these all over the Mediterranean, you have you have panels of experts who are who are testing olive oils. And one of the one of the most bizarre memories I have uh is in order to counter fraud in Calabria in Southern Italy, I was once introduced to a uh a tasting session and I went into the tasting and there were policemen all testing. They they have a brigade of Italian police in Calabria who all in uniform and doing this kind of tasting with these with these blue glasses and and sniffing and and I was kind of really taken about but but so so there's a tasting thing which is heavily regulated and then there's also an acidity level. So the end product has to be less than 0.8% acidity. And the reason the reason for that definition is again based on science and again it's based on the antioxidants because if you because the the olive oil is is mostly a healthy fat, which we we haven't talked about much, but that's because the polyphenols are more interesting. Um but it it it has its fats in triglycerides. So what these are is these are three fatty acids which are bound together by by a glycerol molecule and that's how the fat exists. But if it's broken down by oxygen, uh heat and light and reactions, these fatty acids will break off and will become free fatty acids and they will increase the acidity of the oil. So you want a low acidity oil which reflects the fact that it's well preserved and it hasn't been oxidized and all the antioxidants will be preserved because they haven't been working hard to fight this oxidation. So so 0.8%, most extra virgin olive oils these days are are 0.2 or 0.3%. So the acidity level, it's extra virginity, um and you know, regional or or perhaps cooperative uh or indeed even from a from a single single grower. If you buy your can for the economy for your kitchen, you're more likely to get a cooperative uh um but cooperatives are are really good these days in Spain and in Greece in particular, uh because they uh there's competition amongst the farmers to get to get the best uh olives and and and and so the cooperative will will go around, the committee will go around the olive groves looking at the oil and and examining them and tasting them and saying, yes, I think you're going to be the you're going to be the the premium oil, you're going to be our our bottled oil, you know, our our 250 mil, our 500 mil premium top of the shelf. And then the rest, which will be still really good quality, and it's still, as I say, first pressed because that's by definition they are, you know, will go in a larger can. And that'll be slightly less expensive and that's the one that you probably will be able to afford to to to, you know, to to put in your kitchen. And and you know, and very, very good, very fine uh extra virgin olive oil. So that that would be my advice in general about about about buying really.
Dr Rupy: And and and storing your oil, this is quite important because I remember at the start you were talking about heat extraction methods, light and oxygen exposure. Once you've got your can or let's say you've got a bottle, where should you keep the oil, what temperature, and how fastidious should you be about leaving the the cap um on as much as possible when when cooking with it?
Dr Simon Paul: Yeah, you're absolutely right, Rupy. So fresh oil is best, um and uh I mean it has a long shelf life because it is a very stable product because of these antioxidants. But you want to try and reduce any exposure to oxygen because that will gradually uh use up those antioxidants as they protect the oil from breakdown and from going rancid. So just store it, as you say, with a cap on in a cool, uh uh um cool, dark uh um dark place away from excessive heat, away from uh UV light. Um and the most important key to making sure that your oil is fresh is to consume large amounts of it quickly. So so don't have it hanging around. In fact, I I I gave a present of I I gave gave a present of a of a really beautiful bottle of fresh, the first harvest, it was given to me and and I and I and I and I gave one bottle to a to a friend of mine and I went round for dinner a few months later and he's still got it on their shelf proudly. He said, look, I've still got your extra virgin olive oil. And I and I said, I said, why? Why have you still got my extra virgin olive oil? You should have consumed that within a week. So um so yes, so so so so buy it in a supply that uh that essentially can uh can can you can use in a timely way and get it through. But bear in mind that you know, if and there's really no sense both in terms of calories or in terms of of anything else, there's no sense that you can over consume extra virgin olive oil. Um I mean, you know, there is no, I mean, 30 to 50 mils is quite a lot of oil and that's what is part of the studies. I mean, in Greece, they consume 70 mils of extra virgin olive oil a day each. And so that actually equates to about a liter per person per month on the 30 to 50 mils middle range. So that's the Mediterranean diet and the science behind the benefits of the Mediterranean diet is pitched at 30 to 50 mils in most studies, which suggests that we can certainly consume a liter each. So if you've got a family of of of three or four, then 3 liters, 5 liters is perfect, should should last six weeks, eight weeks, something like that. So it won't it won't certainly won't go off over that time frame.
Dr Rupy: Brilliant. Well, I'm rushing to go get some more extra virgin olive oil. This conversation has made me really hungry. Um I actually was sent um some oil by my sister's best friend's family. They're based in Turkey and they've just started their own olive oil. And I was actually saving this bottle for you, um uh in anticipation of you coming to the kitchen and me cooking for you. Um and but I I know the family, I know the process that's gone through. So I'm going to try this a little bit later and feedback on the cough test after I've learned a lot more about it.
Dr Simon Paul: Yes, please do, Rupy. I'd be really interested. Turkey is one of the areas which traditionally produced a lot of extra virgin olive oil and now they're going for some super super oils from Turkey. It's it's great to see.
Dr Rupy: Fantastic. Well, Simon, this has been brilliant. I'm sure we could natter on again and I would love to do this again when we can actually see each other in person and and cook with some olive oils and do a bit of tasting. Um but I will let you go. I know you're you're you've got clinic later on as as do I actually. Um but I I think we could, yeah, we could we could definitely talk for a lot longer. So I I really appreciate you coming on.
Dr Simon Paul: It's been great fun. Thank you very much indeed, Rupy. Great to talk to you. Great for congratulations on all the work you're doing and uh and and carry on these these great messages.
Dr Rupy: Appreciate that. Appreciate that, Simon.
Dr Rupy: Thanks for listening to today's podcast. You can find out all about Dr Simon Paul's work on the doctorskitchen.com/podcast show notes and I will see you here next time.
