Mike Viking: So what happened to those that haven't read the book was I was in London to talk about my my latest book, The Little Book of Lykke. And I was on this morning show. And I mean the show have more viewers than I have countrymen. And you have those sort of five, seven minutes live to talk about your book. And it's going well. And then Phil, one of the hosts, says, "So earlier you've written The Little Book of Hygge, now you've written The Little Book of Lykke. What are you going to write about next?" And I thought his Danish was really good. And I also know there's a lot of people here in the UK who've seen some of the TV dramas that have come from Denmark, you know, The Killing and The Bridge and Borgen, as you pronounce it. So I said, "Well done on on pronouncing Danish. You must have been watching a lot of Danish Borgen." As we pronounce it, but he heard you must have been watching a lot of Danish porn, right? So he started to laugh. The other hosts, they they were laughing. I had no idea what they were laughing. It was it was German exam all over again. And and and I think Holly turned to him and said, "What did he say?" And he said, "I'm afraid to ask." And that's the end of the interview. So, so that was fun.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast with me, Dr Rupy, where we discuss the most important topics and concepts in the medicinal qualities of food and lifestyle. And these are some of the things that I've talked about in my latest book, Eat to Beat Illness, which is now out in the USA. So you can pick up a copy in Barnes and Noble or online at IndieBound and Amazon online too. Now, my next guest is Mike Viking, who doesn't need much of an introduction, but I wanted to take a quote from his latest book, The Art of Making Memories, just to give you an idea of what this talk is going to be about. Our memories are the cornerstones of our identity. They are the glue that allows us to understand and experience being the same person over time. They are our superpower, which allows us to travel in time and sets us free from the limitations of the present moment. They shape who we are and how we act. They influence our mood and help form our dreams for the future. Mike Viking founded the world's first Happiness Research Institute in 2011. He's from Copenhagen in Denmark, and they consult with cities, governments and organisations around the world on happiness. Happy memories, as he describes it, are representative of the connections and undoubtedly related to human health. Now you might think, what has this got to do with food or diet or nutrition? But these are multi-sensory experiences that cannot be separated from the enjoyment of living. And that's why my motto, my personal motto, has always been flavour as well as function in the kitchen. And it's just as important who's around the table and who you're with around the table as much as what's on the table as well. And it was an absolute pleasure to have Mike there. We cooked, as we named it, Mike's Jackfruit with mango salsa. You can catch the recipe associated with this podcast on my YouTube channel, The Doctor's Kitchen, and you can check out all the show notes on thedoctorskitchen.com, including the links to some of the studies that we reference and of course, Mike's fantastic new book that I highly recommend you get a copy of. And make sure you listen right to the end as we summarise all three of his books really and what he wants the takeaways to be, as well as some top tips on how to make lasting positive memories as well. I really hope you enjoy listening to this podcast. It was an absolute pleasure. We were laughing pretty much the whole way through and I hope this puts a smile on your day and gives you some meaningful and actionable tips towards creating positive experiences for yourself and your family and those around you. There is a lot of evidence-based, safe lifestyle change that we as practitioners can be discussing. And I and I really truly feel that fostering and nurturing a positive environment and creating happy memories is a very big part of that as well. And if you haven't, please do give us a review on the podcast. The positive ones really do help spread the message and I invite you to join the newsletter at thedoctorskitchen.com too, where we post science-based recipes plus lots of lifestyle change content that will help you lead the healthiest, happiest life. But for now, on to the podcast. Okay, now hopefully you'll like what I'm going to make for you.
Mike Viking: I'm sure.
Dr Rupy: So you asked for something plant heavy. You said you like Mexican food and you wanted something with mango in.
Mike Viking: I have a special memory attached to mango.
Dr Rupy: Great. And we're going to be talking about memories because of your wonderful new book. Um, I've made for you a jackfruit, it's slaw, a jackfruit, um, pulled jackfruit. That's essentially what it is with um, cumin, a whole bunch of different spices. And I'm going to make a quick mango salsa to go with it.
Mike Viking: Sounds brilliant.
Dr Rupy: Sound good?
Mike Viking: And I've never had jackfruit before.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Mike Viking: So, first experience, already good.
Dr Rupy: Brilliant. Okay, I'm I'm looking forward to it. So, it's been cooking over here. So I've cheated a little bit today. Um, this has been cooking for about an hour or so. And what's in here, very simply, to start off, extra virgin olive oil, about two tablespoons goes into the pan on medium heat. Um, added a couple of these small baby shallots that I just roughly chopped, four cloves of garlic, some cumin seeds as well, so you've got cumin seeds here. Um, and some salt, pepper, and then I threw in a can of jackfruit, which has gone missing. I think I put it in the recycling. But, uh, there was a can of jackfruit there that was just drained, um, a little bit of passata, some apple cider vinegar, and um, some of these um, uh, this is like a a Mexican marinade. It's basically jalapeno salsa, but you can use whatever salsa you have. If you like a red salsa or whatever. So that's gone in there. Um, and that's just been cooking for about an hour, an hour and a half until the jackfruit sort of like pulls away naturally and it becomes like quite meaty and fleshy. Um, so that's why jackfruit's quite popular at the moment. And to go with that, I'm going to make a mango salsa. So very simply, chopped, diced mango, some peppers, um, coriander, mint, throw it together in a bowl and then we're going to mix it together.
Mike Viking: Yum.
Dr Rupy: Great. All right.
Mike Viking: I'm happy already.
Dr Rupy: You're happy already. Great. And you're you're the happiness guy, so. So, tell us about um, your your trip so far, man. You've been in you've been here for a few days.
Mike Viking: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm a happiness researcher. So my career is essentially dedicated to two questions. Um, I try to understand why are some people happier than others and how do we improve happiness? Or how do we increase happiness? Um, so I've worked on this uh, almost a decade and I'm going to spend the next, I think 40 years on those two questions. Um, and and recently I wrote a book uh, called The Art of Making Memories because we can see that memory are part of the answer to both questions. We can see that people who have the ability to form a positive narrative about their past are on average happier. And therefore we also need to be making more happy memories obviously.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And I I read this book um, this week. Um, it was sent to me in the post and I it really, really did touch me. Um, it's one of those books and I haven't had this experience before where I'm reading it and I'm trying to get into the narrative of what you've written, but I can't help but be flooded by my own memories. And I'm reading the pages and I'm reading about someone else's story and then it flicks on a switch in my brain where I'm thinking about my childhood, my thoughts, my smells, my experiences. You know, you talk about the blades of grass and stuff and it immediately took me back to school. It was fascinating. How did you do that through the medium of a book? Honestly.
Mike Viking: But that's how memory work, right? It works by being triggered by, you know, the the smell of something or the sound of something. You know, you hear a song and then you're instantly transported back to to a memory. So if I see or taste a mango, I will be transported back to the time I was 16. I was living on Australia in Australia for one year. And I saw this weird exotic fruit in the fridge for the first time. They were not introduced in in supermarkets in Denmark at the time. And I tried it and I remember thinking, where have you been all my life? You know, it's sweet, it's a great texture. And and and sort of having that first experience trying a new ingredient for the first time is at 16 is quite remarkable.
Dr Rupy: That is.
Mike Viking: So, yeah, I'm I'm memory work in in in in that way. We we we remember something because there is something in our surroundings that that trigger a certain memory. And it's super powerful. Um, and there is so much stored in there. And I've I've been really overwhelmed with how powerful our memories are and also how much they shape us and and how we feel and how we act. We can see there are some some experiments um, where they have planted the false memory in some participants in the study that when they were kids, they used to love asparagus. And in that uh, group of the participants, they become more likely to order asparagus in a restaurant, they'll be willing to pay more for asparagus uh, in in in in a food market and so on. So it also memories also shape how we act. So I think that's that's just really fascinating.
Dr Rupy: I mean, so this was a natural progression for you in in your mind from your previous two books which were all about yes, happiness, but comfort and home comforts and that kind of stuff. Um, and now you're looking at happiness, sorry, you're looking at memories as a way to sort of add to those experiences or to reflect on them.
Mike Viking: Yeah, so so earlier I've written about Hygge, which is this uh, Danish phenomenon. Um, you know, it's it's basically the art of creating a nice atmosphere. Food is always great to create a nice atmosphere, I think. Um, and and I've written about happiness as well, you know, why some people are happier than others. But this book, I think was also inspired by me turning 40.
Dr Rupy: Uh, so uh, so uh,
Mike Viking: I was going to ask about that because you you open the book with what sounds like a mid-life crisis. And I was I just thought, was that the inspiration for writing this?
Dr Rupy: I I see it as a mid-life creation.
Mike Viking: Okay, great, great. I like the positive spin on there. Nothing I would expect.
Dr Rupy: But it means, I mean, so in in in Denmark, men on average live to where 80. You know, we smoke too much, we drink too much. Uh, we have the wrong diet. So 40 means passing the sort of halfway mark, right? And that just meant that I started to reflect on what were actually my happiest moments in my first 40 years. You know, how can I use that knowledge to create happy moments in the future? Um, so so that that was the starting point.
Mike Viking: Right. Yeah, yeah.
Dr Rupy: I mean, and I'm I mean, I'm not into sports cars, uh, so so so so that I think writing a book is is a much better.
Mike Viking: And you're not into football either, which I found hilarious because I'm not into football either, but there was a an opening chapter about origami and you were describing this origami Premier League or something where the best players were traded and then it was just so brilliant. I mean, I I totally get that humor, that kind of like slapstick adventurous humor.
Dr Rupy: What do you mean slapstick? It's really high brow.
Mike Viking: But no, so I'm I'm I'm glad you enjoyed it. And I try to write in a sort of conversational style. Essentially, you know, I I actually try writing as if I was sitting across from somebody else, um, hopefully having Mexican food and having a nice evening, having an enjoyable conversation. So mixing studies with personal anecdotes, also about the time I said Danish porn on live TV. Um,
Dr Rupy: I was going to bring that up because because when you said that and I I read it in the book and I immediately went to my computer and I tried to look up your interview with Philip Schofield. And it was so funny because it was such an innocent mistake from your end. And then they they were trying to cover it and I I mean if anyone's listening, they should definitely go stop right now and go go watch it.
Mike Viking: Well, yeah, so but but we don't want people to Google my name and then Danish porn because that's that's going to give off some wrong algorithm. So, but yeah, what what what happened to those that that haven't read the book was I was in London to to talk about my my latest book, The Little Book of Lykke. And I was on this morning show. And I mean the show have more viewers than I have countrymen. And you have those sort of five, seven minutes live to talk about your book. And it's going well. And then Phil, one of the hosts, says, "So earlier you've written The Little Book of Hygge, now you've written The Little Book of Lykke. What are you going to write about next?" And I thought his Danish was really good. And I also know there's a lot of people here in the UK who've seen some of the TV dramas that have come from Denmark, you know, The Killing and The Bridge and Borgen, as you pronounce it. So I said, "Well done on on pronouncing Danish. You must have been watching a lot of Danish Borgen." As we pronounce it, but he heard you must have been watching a lot of Danish porn, right? So he started to laugh. The other hosts, they they were laughing. I had no idea what they were laughing. It was it was German exam all over again. And and and I think Holly turned to him and said, "What did he say?" And he said, "I'm afraid to ask." And that's the end of the interview. So, so that was fun.
Dr Rupy: I mean, that was brilliant. I it's funny that because that, you know, obviously that that's now a massive memorable point in your career, right? And you'll always come back to that. I had a similar, perhaps less sort of embarrassing incident on the same TV show a couple of years ago. It's my first appearance on live TV. And uh, everything was going fine. I was doing a live cooking segment. We were chatting away. We'd done rehearsals twice. Um, I was just about to put some prawns uh, on the on the um, uh, in the in the frying pan. And I looked at where the prawns were in rehearsal and they weren't there. And I looked underneath and they weren't there. And then I mouthed to myself and out loud, apparently, "Where are the prawns?" And immediately Holly and Phil went into panic mode because they realized that the prawns weren't there. And so on on I mean, I was I was actually quite relaxed about it because I I had some backup prawns over here that were already cooked anyway, just in case I was running late. So, so Holly literally darts round the other side of the camera to go and grab some prawns from wherever they were from the kitchen and stuff. Um, and in the meantime, Phil was making small talk and he's like, "Tell me about salt. Is salt good for you?" I'm like, "What are we why are you talking about salt for? I'm talking about the recipe." It was brilliant. But like, it's it's funny that because in I I I suppose before I'd watched um, the rerun of that program, and this is why I wanted to talk to you about it, I would have thought of that moment um, in in the moment, I would have thought about it from the first person uh, perspective. But because I've seen that clip probably three or four times now, I now remember it as the clip instead of how I was in that moment. So my question to you was, is our constant love of of of cameras and videos and taking clips and and all that kind of stuff, is that almost ruining memories at all? Or is it interfering with with my ability to remember what it was like in that moment?
Mike Viking: It it can be. So, so memory is probably more uh, an artist than than a museum curator. So it it will go in and sort of repaint the memory. Um, and we also see that, you know, one of the fundamental things to be able to remember something is of course paying attention to something. And and if we're too much on our phones, then we're not going to pay attention to it if we're taking pictures and so on. But I think we can also uh, turn it around and and use for instance, uh, our phones and our devices to retrieve and and store some memories uh, that that we have. Uh, one thing I I suggest uh, in the book is curating the Happy 100. So, I have thousands of pictures on my phone. You have thousands of pictures of your on your phone. And maybe we don't actually scroll through them so often. But when I was growing up, you had old school photo albums. You brought together the family and you were looking at all pictures. And what I suggest is once a year, maybe just before New Year's, gather the family or loved ones, and then go through your pictures and then decide on which are actually which were our happiest moments, which are our happiest photos from this year. So curating the Happy 100 or Happy 10 or Happy 50, and then get them printed out and put it in an old school uh, photo album to sort of store it.
Dr Rupy: That's a really good idea because I I I often scroll through my picture my pictures and it's usually food, to be honest, food porn. Um, but it's uh, it's quite overwhelming when you have that many photos. And actually being regimented about, you know, taking ones out and deleting them or putting them into an area where you can actually reflect on them a lot quicker. Um, is yeah, it's a fantastic idea.
Mike Viking: And food, I mean, whether it's the taste or the scent, it's a great also trigger of memories. So you'll see a dish and you'll remember, ah, that was the time, you know, I met with Mike. It was so much fun. It was the Danish porn story. Uh, but it's it's it's it's a really powerful, I think, time traveling vehicle. Uh, because you taste something and you're instantly transported back to that moment. And that that is what is called Madeleine moments, when a taste can trigger a certain thing. So for me, I mean, Mexican food will bring me back to, I spent a few months in in Mexico, uh, also writing uh, a book. Um, and uh, every day after writing, I would go down and have tacos on the so on the on the street. Um, and um, just all those experiences uh, in in in Mexico, uh, will come back when I when I have Mexican food.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Oh, great. Great. And I remember reflecting actually on on the book, um, you've had quite a few different experiences, right? You you've been traveling a lot throughout your your early or late teens and 20s. You must have quite a diverse palette. What do you kind of eat at home? What are your go-tos?
Mike Viking: Mexican food. I mean, I like I like uh, a plant strong, heavy uh, diet. Um, um, I like to try new stuff. Um, I'm I'm really excited about jackfruit. I I I know that when I have new ingredients or new dishes, I'll be more likely to remember that. Uh, so for instance, over the summer, uh, my girlfriend and I, we went to a a restaurant uh, that is sort of, you know, new Nordic cuisine, sort of locally sourced ingredients. And we had a tasting menu and and one of the dishes were uh, ants.
Dr Rupy: Oh, nice.
Mike Viking: Which are actually quite sour. And it was the first time I had ants. It's probably also my last time for ants. But it was a quite memorable uh, evening. And I've had, you know, fermented shark. I've had snails on the street.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I saw that. Yeah.
Mike Viking: Yeah. Um, a quiet taste.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, a quiet taste. Yeah.
Mike Viking: Yeah. Um, but um, but I think it's fun to try out new stuff. And I enjoy um, I enjoy cooking a lot uh, and and and perhaps also if sometimes, you know, buying different sorts of of fish and then trying them up against each other. So you can sort of really appreciate the the differences uh, among them.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. That's something that I I recommend for people who are traditionally not a fan of fish, you know, to try different types. I mean, fish is huge. You can't say you don't like fish. You have to try a lot of different ones before you can make that statement. Okay. So I've just made you this very quick salsa here. Um, I hope you don't mind chili. I should have asked you that before.
Mike Viking: I love chili.
Dr Rupy: Good. You had me nervous there. Um, so just to recap, I've done this quick uh, mango salsa, diced mango, some red peppers, jalapeno, coriander, mint has also gone in there as well. Um, with a little bit of uh, seasoning, some olive oil. And then that's the jackfruit there.
Mike Viking: So that's the jackfruit.
Dr Rupy: That's the jackfruit. So you see these stringy bits here? That's the jackfruit.
Mike Viking: Wow, it almost looks like chicken or something like that, right?
Dr Rupy: Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's almost like pulled pork after you've cooked it for like four or five hours. So that's what why it's so popular amongst vegetarians and and plant-based eaters. I've added some uh, some haricot beans as well just for added fibre and to give it a bit more robustness.
Mike Viking: Nice. And you can give us your absolute honest opinion.
Dr Rupy: Brilliant. I love getting criticism, feedback, whatever you want. If you find it's great, it's great, but otherwise, please.
Mike Viking: It'll be edited out.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, I'll edit it out. We'll edit that out. We'll edit that out. Perfect amount of spice.
Mike Viking: Good.
Dr Rupy: Perfect amount of heat. You know, gets the blood rushing. Um, it it's it's a very meaty dish.
Mike Viking: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Um, it's it's it's really rich. This would make me really full.
Mike Viking: Good.
Dr Rupy: Um, I like this. Does it have a name?
Mike Viking: Uh, should you give it a name?
Dr Rupy: I'll give it um, Mike's Jackfruit and Mango Salsa. Does that sound good?
Mike Viking: How about Mike and the Jackfruit?
Dr Rupy: Mike and the Jackfruit. That's perfect. That's definitely we'll call it that.
Mike Viking: Mike and the Jackfruit.
Dr Rupy: Mike and the Jackfruit. Brilliant.
Mike Viking: Um, one of the things I recommend people also doing uh, is creating the Apollo picnic. So the concept is everybody brings an ingredient or a dish they have not tried before. It could be Mike and the Jackfruit. Um, and you do it around uh, June 20th because that's when the moon landing happened, the Apollo mission. And that means that over time, you know, there's going to be an announcement of, oh, this is the 50th anniversary of of the moon landing, the Apollo mission. That's going to trigger the memory of a lovely afternoon where everybody was talking about this amazing Mike and the Jackfruit dish uh, in in in the um, in the garden. So, brilliant.
Dr Rupy: That's great. I'm glad. I hope we've created some happy memories.
Mike Viking: Yeah, you did. You did.
Dr Rupy: Every time you think of a mango salsa or jackfruit, you'll remember this.
Mike Viking: Jackfruit definitely.
Dr Rupy: Exactly. Good. Good. I'm glad. Um, I was hoping that was my main uh, uh, objective for today. It was to create you a dish because so many of your memories that you you go through in your book are centered around eating experiences. I wanted to create you a dish that is firmly centered in your mind.
Mike Viking: Yeah. Well done.
Dr Rupy: Good.
Mike Viking: Mission accomplished.
Dr Rupy: So, um, your book, as I said, memory, it's a fascinating concept because um, there's a there's a little bit of the book where you talk about um, is it uh, Lykke?
Mike Viking: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Um, and I'm fascinated about how there's a potential for us to use memory or the um, the utility of happy memories as a clinical tool to help people through times where they feel low or even those who have a clinical diagnosis of low mood and depression.
Mike Viking: Exactly. So what we see is that people who are able to form a positive narrative about their past, able to retrieve happy memories, are also happier overall long term. And exactly as you describe, one of the issues when you're struggling with depression is that not only are you not feeling happy right now, um, but you are also unable to sometimes retrieve any memory of you being happy at all. Um, and and that's of course a a fundamental challenge. And there has been some uh, experiments and studies with this where uh, psychologists here in the UK have helped people who are struggling with depression, um, flesh out 15 happy memories. And at first the participants are like, I don't have 15 happy memories. Uh, but the researchers helped them and then what they do in this experiment is that they use something called the Loci method, um, which is essentially uh, sort of a memory palace or uh, it's a familiar route or your childhood home, a place you know really well. Uh, and then place those 15 happy memories on that familiar route or in the different homes uh, or different rooms in in your childhood home. And that in this experiment helped people who are struggling with depression retrieve those happy memories when when asked about it. So there is something we can do, but it's it's I think it's a super powerful tool. It does impact how we feel, it impacts how we act. It counteracts um, anxiety, loneliness, um, improves self-esteem. So there's a lot of benefits from from happy memories.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll I'll link to that study actually about Loci, so I pronounced that incorrectly uh, earlier. Um, and and it was a small study, but I think it it has potential legs to go further and you know, it could be something as part of what we have in our uh, uh, clinical toolbox of psychotherapies alongside CBT, for example, that could be useful because one of the common threads of um, low mood, anxiety, depression that I see in patients is rumination. So it's almost like the antithesis of that. It's ruminating about negative experiences where you lose rationality and control of that as well. So this is sort of like, you know, doing the opposite.
Mike Viking: Yeah. And it's sort of it's a vicious circle. If we ruminate, um, we are we are actually also strengthening the memories of the bad experiences that we have had because that's how memory work, like a muscle, the more you train it, the more you strengthen the connection in the brain of that memory. Um, so I always like to say that that memory is like a muscle or like Santa Claus. If if you don't think of a memory, it ceases to exist. So the visual image you want of memory is like a really muscular Santa. Uh, that
Dr Rupy: It's a great visual. Because when I was reading it, I was like, this is I wish there were more analogies like this in clinical work.
Mike Viking: And and and uh, I I did a presentation earlier today and I showed a a picture of a muscular Santa. And uh, you A, you have no idea how how long time it took me to Google a picture of a muscular Santa. And I also get some really freaky Google ads nowadays uh, because of that search. But yeah, that's the image you want to use.
Dr Rupy: You make this description in the book actually about there's a there's I think you tread the line very well, treading the line between being good weird and not being invited back weird. How how do you do that? How do you know? Or is it just through experience of treading the line too far, going over the line a bit too much?
Mike Viking: Um, yeah, so so I you're probably referring to what I call the pineapple principle, right? Because we remember uh, we remember the things that stick out. Um, so if I um, said, you know, a list of words, if I said, you know, giraffe, elephant, dog, cat, turkey, dove, wolf, cheesecake, um, uh, chicken, what you'll be more likely to remember out of those words is the word cheesecake because that's the one that sticks out. That's called the von Restorff effect. Um, uh, and it also means when when we see things that are weird, when we see things that stick out, we remember them. So it's something I can use, for example, if I'm if I'm doing a presentation, um, and often I'll I'll be the only happiness expert. I'm I'm I'm the weird happiness researcher. Uh, so that's fine. People are going to remember that. But sometimes I'm at events where we might be 12 happiness researchers. And I want people to remember me. Um, and and and therefore, uh, I I call it the pineapple principle. I I would bring something on stage that is weird, that is out of place. It might be a a pineapple or uh, a statue of a small horse or something that is completely out of of place for for the talk. Uh, and then then I'll I'll explain why it is I I brought a pineapple on stage and I'll say, you know, there's going to be a lot of happiness researchers here today and I know we struggle with names. So now you can just refer to me as the guy with the pineapple. So you want to explain why you're weird. Uh, of course, you don't want to be too weird. You don't want to bring a pineapple to, you know, the minister of of of of state for for happiness uh, or or something, right?
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah. And um, I like the way in the in the the start of the book, you you make the distinction between semantic and episodic memory as well. Can you describe a bit about what those two are?
Mike Viking: Yes. So, so semantic memory is you knowing that uh, Paris is the capital of France. It's knowledge about the world that we share with the world. It's also a knowledge we're probably unaware of when we acquired it. I mean, yes, I know that Paris is the capital of France, but I can't remember learning it. Um, so that's semantic knowledge. Episodic knowledge is remembering your trip to Paris, you know, sitting in the Luxembourg Garden, uh, reading a Farewell to Arms and there was a a guy with stripes and a beret and a baguette and you thought, oh, how cliche is that? It's it's it's a vivid memory. It has a a richness in details of taste, of sounds, of experiences. So, so episodic memory is um, remembering, whereas semantic knowledge or semantic memory is is knowing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's something that I used to employ actually when I was at medical school and I used to revise in different corners of my room to remember which part of the body or which sort of subject matter I was dealing with. Pharmacology was over in the corner, biochemistry was another place. I had pathology on one side and then different corners of the room would correspond to upper limb anatomy, lower limb anatomy. So that was like a a thing that I just started doing. And as you were talking about Paris as well, you know, I don't know that many facts about Paris, but what I do remember is um, the time when I went and played petanque. It was a sunny day. I knew exactly what I was drinking. I knew exactly who I was with. I know exactly what they were wearing as well, time of year it was, all those different things. I can give so much granular detail. It's quite scary. But then semantic knowledge is it's it's a lot harder to retain. I suppose you haven't put like
Mike Viking: And the difference here is there there to your episodic memory, there's a time traveling element to it, right? You you can travel back in time and then, you know, you can you can you can taste the pastis or whatever you had at that that time and you can sort of you can you can visualize the landscape you were in. Uh, so so it has a time traveling experience. Now, that that actually reminds me of I was playing petanque recently as well. I was at a wedding in in France and I was I was playing petanque up against a couple of French guys. And um, and and yeah, one of them said, "I'm not really good at petanque." And then I said, "What do you mean? You just scored two points over me." And he said, "You're not very good either." I thought that was very candid.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. So we we touched on it a bit earlier about the impact of social media um, making memories. And you made reference to um, a great organisation, the Center for Humane Technology, I believe they're called. And and and the work they're doing. Essentially, it's a a bunch of breakaways from Google and Facebook and and a whole bunch of other very well-known social media companies who are realizing that this isn't a a race for advertising dollars, it isn't a race for uh, market share, it's actually a race for our attention. And we're experiencing um, uh, weapons of mass distraction, as I think it was coined in the Guardian or something. Um, how do you deal with social media? And what do you think that is doing to our memories? Is that eroding our memories? Is it a tool that we could use to bolster our memories? Um, and and how do you do that on a daily basis? I realize I'm giving you like three questions at once. So please take your time.
Mike Viking: Um, and and to answer, I think both yes and no. So, so they are eroding, but I think they can also be used as tools. Um, so we can see that that attention is a fundamental element in remembering something. Of course, if we are not paying attention to something, we are not going to remember it. And I think it's a really powerful ingredient um, in creating memories. And a couple of weeks ago, I was I was having a conversation with a Polish journalist who had read the book as well. And she recalled being around eight, sitting at the dinner table with her mom and her sister, and they were having this colorful Polish dish, and there were some yellow flowers on the on the table. And her mother said, "I hope you remember this moment." And she did now 30, 40 years later down the line because her mother was forcing her to pay attention to it. And of course, that's also it's like salt. It's an ingredient you have to use in moderation. If you if you if you say all the time, "I hope you remember this moment," you're going to be like, "Yeah, shut up, Dad." Um, so so so so it can be dosed at at at the right amount. So, so being mindful, paying attention will help you remember it. And if we are only paying attention to our phone, of course, we're not paying attention to what happens around us. So it can undermine, I think, memories. On the other hand, we can also use um, I think social media to to harvest some memories and to create future memory triggers. So, one of my suggestions is why not create a personal social media account that only you can access and see. And there you could post pictures of your everyday, things that are interesting to you, but not interesting for for the rest of us. And also, I think it's quite liberating. Um, you don't have to worry about the right caption or the right filter and so on. But here's are just your everyday. Uh, and people that matter to you, dishes that you've had, for example, Mike and the Jackfruit. Um, and and and and your everyday life, this is what my desk looked like in 1979 and so on. I think in 10 years, that's going to be a a gold mine of things that will help you trigger memories of uh, that time.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And there there is actually one social media company that I find quite fascinating. It's called One Second Every Day. And they essentially, yeah, get you to remind you at random points in the day just to record one second video at whatever you're doing in that moment, whether you're at work, whether you're cooking, whether you're watching something at a football stadium or an origami stadium. Um, and uh, those who have read the book will understand the reference. But um, uh, where you just take that and then at the end of the year, you have this huge collection of seemingly meaningless memories to any other person looking at it, but to you, it triggers all this flurry of information.
Mike Viking: Yeah. And just a second will trigger something. Um, because there's also going to be a sound that can trigger stuff. And I mean, we we take a lot of photos, but but you know, we experience the world through all our five senses. And you know, why not have a collection of our favorite people's laugh? You know, that's also going to be something nice in in in 10 years, especially with the people that have gone to to sort of preserve that for for for years to come.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah. And I I like the way you describe, you know, sometimes you need to be the opposite of Marie Kondo. You need to have a clutter of all these different things because you don't just collect pictures and and ornaments, you you collect memories and things that inspire you, you know, like
Mike Viking: Yeah, I think I suggest being the arch enemy of Marie Kondo. So, and doing exactly what you describe, you know, combining or finding stuff that are manifestations of your happy memories. Um, so so in the book, um, we we we did a huge collection of happy memories from around the world, more than a thousand memories from 75 different countries. One of my favorite uh, memories is from a a British woman in her 30s who decides with her family they should go out to the beach and cook over a fire pit. And they go out there and it's windy and it's cold and they can't get the fire going and they end up eating this half-cooked porridge. But she says it's this fantastic family time. They're sitting under the blankets and it becomes this this fond memory of uh, an event that went horribly wrong. The food was horrendous, but it bonded them together as a family. Great story. Now, what she might do, if she were the arch enemy of Marie Kondo, was to go to that beach and collect, it could be, you know, a a stone to use as a paperweight or it might be some small, small, you know, beautiful stones that could be turned into a a necklace if she has daughters or something like that. So, so finding stuff that will help you remember that crazy time uh, when we went to the the beach and ate uh, half-cooked porridge.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I I often use a similar sort of technique when I'm in clinic with a patient who has multi multiple complex issues. They have chronic pain, they have uh, gut issues, they have um, memory, um, uh, or anhedonia, um, so lack of enjoyment and things that usually bring them pleasure. Um, and a common, rather than going to individual scenarios, given that I'm a general practitioner in the NHS, I only have eight minutes per patient. Um, a question that often breaks open a lot of things is when do you remember the last time you felt well? When was the last time you felt super happy or super well in yourself or fit? And often is, I can never remember, you know, it's usually the first thing, quite similar to the study you were talking about where they couldn't remember 15 things. But often with a little bit of nudging, a little bit of coaxing, they can come up with some sort of uh, date, an objective date of when they felt well. And then getting them to imagine what that was like and how they felt in that moment is usually quite a powerful tool because then it gives me an idea as a practitioner, what is the next best step for that person? What is the next best thing that I can do to improve them on their health journey, to create and foster an environment where their their body and their their mind looks after itself.
Mike Viking: That's brilliant. And I think you are actually honoring the original definition of health. I mean, WHO, you know, the definition of health is, you know, not just the absence of disease, but it's physical, mental and social well-being. And I think perhaps for many years, we've been focusing too much on the physical aspect. Of course, those things are connected. Uh, but but addressing mental health and understanding that our physical health, mental health and social health are related, I think is tremendously important. So, actually, one of the studies we've done at the Happiness Research Institute is understanding how different diseases impact life satisfaction levels or well-being levels for uh, patients. And and one of the patient groups we've looked at um, have a a skin disease, so so something called psoriasis. And we've looked at, I think we have almost 200,000 patients in that study. And obviously, if you have a a disease, often you are less satisfied, you are less happy than the average Dane or Brit or American and so on. Um, but we see that happiness gap close if the doctor fully understands that um, the mental impact the disease also have on them because it's not just a skin disease, it's also something that can be socially stigmatizing. Some of these patients have experienced, you know, being thrown out of swimming pools or people moving away from them on the bus because they think it's contagious. So, so addressing the mental impact that a skin disease can have, um, we see that that reduces the happiness gap. So, very good what you're doing.
Dr Rupy: Oh, thanks. I mean, like, I think there's a lot more practitioners who are aware of this now. And in fact, um, there's a fantastic book, I don't know if you've read it, called The Language of Kindness. It's by a nurse who um, is was actually been on the pod actually. Um, she's been a nurse for 20 years and she was very quick to realize that nurses are in a particularly powerful position because patients don't always remember the doctor who cured the disease or gave them the medication or made the diagnosis. Obviously, those are very important, but it's the way you were treated. And often that is in the realm or the opportunity to have that effect is in the realm of nurses who spend a lot more time with patients. So empathy, um, the uh, kindness, the shows of kindness, even if it is a soft touch on the shoulder or uh, an engagement in a conversation, that can be just as powerful in terms of their healing process.
Mike Viking: Yeah. I think Mark Twain said that kindness is the language the deaf can hear and the blind can see or something like that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Um, uh, one thing I wanted to ask you about was um, so I've read Daniel Kahneman's book um, that he co-authored, Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow. Uh, and I I I I like to think that I read it and I understood it. I don't understand a lot of it. But the way you describe the peak-end effect, I completely understood because you've written in a way, like you said, it's very conversational. Um, do you want to tell us a bit about that and how that's influenced your your writing?
Mike Viking: I've I've I've read the same book. And and for those of you that don't know Kahneman, um, he is he's basically the Beyoncé of behavioral economics. So he's a psychologist. He have he has won the Nobel uh, prize in economics in part because of his studies that show that we actually have two selves. So we have an experiencing an experiencing self, which is who we feel we are right now, that is experiencing this moment and sort of lives for 500 million times for three seconds at a time throughout our lives. The second um, self we have is the remembering self. So that is the one that keeps track of who we are, our identity. That's the one with with the memory. And what Kahneman and his colleagues have shown is that those two people that we are, sometimes have different opinions. So, one experiment, you had the participants first put one hand in water that were 14 degrees for 60 seconds. And 14 degrees is quite unpleasant. And then um, in the second trial, the same participants were asked to put the other hand in water, also 14 degrees, also for 60 seconds, but then for an additional 30 seconds with 15 degrees. So they increased the temperature in the water a little bit. Now, the participants didn't know how long they had their waters in hand for. But then when the participants were asked, which trial would you prefer to repeat? A lot of them went for the second trial, even though they had the same amount of discomfort as in the in the first trial, plus an additional 30 seconds of a little bit less discomfort. So, so what Kahneman proves in in several studies is that what shapes our memory is how things were at the peak and how it ended. So that's the peak-end uh, effect. And in that sense, that's why we sometimes make bad decisions because the remembering self will think of the second trial as the better version and drag our experiencing self through that. So, as I write, in that sense, our experiencing or our remembering self is kind of a prick in that way.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And so when when you when people read your book, um, or read all three of the books, what are the fundamental things that you want them to take away? Because there's a lot in there and I think, you know, rather than ask you to give us some tips on how to create better memories, you've done a fantastic job of that. And I think there's so many different facets of the book that will be applicable to different people at different stages of their life. But overall, how do you think they will marry together? And what what kind of things do you want to be taken?
Mike Viking: I think, I mean, with the for example, the the book, The Little Book of Lykke, I look at what explains why some people are happier than others in that one. And I would like us to look at happiness the same way we look at health. You know, there is when it comes to how long you and I are going to live, there's a genetic component. So we are predisposed for some diseases. Uh, there is also a context component. So the air pollution in London, the air pollution in Copenhagen, the quality of the healthcare system in those countries. And then the choices we make on a daily basis. So diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol, and so on. And I think it's the same way we need to look at happiness. Yes, there is a genetic component. Yes, we are born more or less happy. But yes, there's also policies that matter and the cities we live in, they also matter, but also the choices we make on a daily basis. Now, um, the first book was on Hygge, which is a Danish phenomenon that is uh, essentially the art of creating a nice atmosphere. It's doing what you do, it's bringing people together over a nice meal, it's thinking about the atmosphere in the room, creating a harmony, creating a sense of peace and um, and comfort. Uh, which is is sort of a Danish, it's a key part of the Danish culture and and the way we perceive uh, our our national identity. Um, and then the third book, I I hope the main takeaway from for readers there is that going from thinking of memory as something random, as something that just is coincidental, to thinking of memory as something I can actually influence. And I actually have some control over what I will remember from my life and what my family and loved ones will remember, that I can actually design happy memories um, for them and for myself.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Can I give you a couple of things that I've taken away from your book? Just so yeah. So, one thing I've now become a lot more proactive around is definitely putting my phone away. So I'm I've always been aware of the impact of social media, but putting my phone away when I walk out the door, because typically that's when I first like to look at my phone. I don't like to look at it when I first wake up. I try to minimize it in the morning when I'm having breakfast, etc. Um, and when I leave my house, that's when I start looking at my phone. And I realized after reading your book, I'm not paying attention to the surroundings and that crisp air in the morning that hits my face and you know, that that essentially is is what I'm missing in the morning. The second thing is, um, when I have uh, dinner with friends now, which is quite hard to organize, particularly living in London, we all have busy lives, so that's a a fairly rare occasion. So probably once every couple of months with like close friends from from medical school. Um, I I want to take a moment before I go into having dinner with them or whenever I meet them to sort of think about how long it's been since I've met that person and what kind of environment and what kind of night and what things I'm going to remember during the evening as well. That to to prime my memory for future. So I'm sort of creating that memory bank. Um, and the other thing, um, is uh, doing what you suggested a little bit earlier, like looking through my photos and selecting a memory bank, personal ones for me for the year, maybe no more than 50 or 100, um, that I can reflect on in the future.
Mike Viking: Very good. You're a good student.
Dr Rupy: Cheers. What a guest and what a pleasure it was to to create that dish for Mike and have it named after Mike as well. Um, you can catch it on YouTube. Make sure you do check out the recipe. You can get all the uh, recipes associated with the podcast on my website, thedoctorskitchen.com. To summarize our tips, uh, I would say it's to be aware of all your senses when you are happy. In a moment where you are having an absolute belly laugh, think about the tastes, the smells, the environment, the atmosphere, who you're with, what you're feeling in that moment beyond pure laughter, obviously. You know, there are so many things that you can hold on to. And and and I said this in the podcast a number of times, the book made me conjure images of my past and and and happy moments as well. Use and create unique memory triggers. So little triggers like a a stone uh, or uh, an anecdote from that um, uh, that experience that you've had that can trigger that sense of joy as well. Uh, and I say in accordance to um, Mike's advice as well, is to create a memory dish. So if you know that you're going to be meeting up with your friends or um, you're going to go to a restaurant or you're going to do something adventurous at home, obviously not sausages, uh, or unless you want sausages. Um, and creating a dish around that, uh, I think is fantastic. Um, so theming an evening, um, whether it be Mexican, whether it be Turkish, whether it be Indian, whatever you like. Um, and please do check out the show notes as well associated with this podcast. They're all on thedoctorskitchen.com where you can also subscribe for weekly recipes that we send out for free to our newsletter, which has thousands of you on. Um, and you can find all this information and more uh, on the website too. Tweet us at the_kitchen, check out the Instagram and YouTube under the same name. And please do check out Mike Viking as well. His Instagram is Mike spelled M E I K Viking W I K I N G all one word. You can find him on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, obviously, as well. Catch you next time.
