Richie: You know, there's seven billion people on this planet, all of whom can breathe. You know, maybe not everyone feels like doing yoga or going to the gym. Maybe not everyone has access to the healthiest food, but everyone can breathe. And for now, it's free.
Dr Rupy: Welcome back to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast with me, Dr Rupy, where we are going to be discussing the most important topics and concepts in the medicinal qualities of food and lifestyle. Now, today's guest is Richie Bostock, or The Breath Guy. He's made it his mission to spread the life-changing possibilities of breathing. This episode is Breathe for Health. Breathing is the only system in our body that is both automatic and also under our control, and that is not an accident of nature. It is by design, and it is key to becoming healthy, happy, and high-performing. And that's according to Richie's own experiences with breathwork as well. It's completely shifted his own life and beliefs on the potential of human beings. He's had some incredible experiences travelling around the world and learning from one of the modern-day masters of breathwork, Wim Hof. You can catch Richie at festivals, workshops, and retreats. The links to all of them are on the show notes. And also his book, Exhale: The Science and Art of Breathwork is out on March 2020. I'm definitely going to get myself a copy, and so should you. And talking about books, my new book, Eat to Beat Illness, is out now. I talk about the nutritional science and the lifestyle practices that improve so many different aspects of our wellbeing, our brain, our skin, our immunity. Also, check out the newsletter for thedoctorskitchen.com. You can sign up at the website. There's loads of fascinating information that I'm trying to pump out every two weeks. No spam, just pure nutritional and lifestyle goodness. On to the podcast.
Richie: Richie.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the pod, mate.
Richie: Mate, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Dr Rupy: It's nice to have an Aussie in the studio. It just makes everything really happy, you know?
Richie: I don't know what happened, you know. We came over from the UK, got some sunshine, and all of a sudden we're like the happiest people in the world. I don't know what's going on.
Dr Rupy: Well, I lived there for two years, so I completely get the Aussie vibe, you know, that whole wellbeing lifestyle, living by the beach, eating well. You know, there's a lot of reason as to why, you know, I think Aussies are super happy. And yeah, it's great to have you in the studio, man. So thank you so much for coming down. So for those who don't know a bit about what you do, I think it would be great to get into what your background is, why you're so fascinated by breathwork. And at the moment, it just seems to be blowing up. Like there's so many things that you're getting involved and also from a clinical perspective as well. I think there's some really interesting research coming out. So, yeah.
Richie: Yeah, it's it's it's really crazy how quickly it's caught on. And I think it's just because it's breathing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Richie: Like, everyone can do it. You know, if you have a nose and a mouth and a pair of lungs, then it means you qualify. So, so, how I got into it, well, funnily enough, you know, I wasn't always teaching people how to breathe for a living. I'm from Australia originally and was working.
Dr Rupy: Brisbane, right?
Richie: Brisbane. Yeah. You were in Sydney.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I've been to Brisbane. I like Brisbane.
Richie: Did you like it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I love it.
Richie: There's not a heap going on there.
Dr Rupy: It's not too much going on. There's some nice on the outskirts, I think, of the actual city itself, but yeah.
Richie: Best part is you're close to amazing beaches.
Dr Rupy: Yes, exactly.
Richie: And uh, I was working as a management consultant. So six years in the corporate life, yeah, working 70-hour weeks, uh, doing what is very common, especially in places like London, you know, just living, burning the candle at both ends. And uh, it was, you know, after a little while that I realised that's not really what I wanted to do. Uh, spent the next year or so trying to work out exactly what that is, starting up a couple of businesses, eventually starting an online uh, business. It was an app for a martial art that I was really interested in at the time, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Dr Rupy: Oh, I love Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Richie: Oh, you like it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I've only done a few sessions myself, but um, I used to watch quite a bit of UFC, like MMA, and some of the best ones had a specialism in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Um, who is it? Georges St-Pierre, I think was a great one and a whole bunch of others, so.
Richie: My man of my own heart. GSP is my favourite fighter of all time.
Dr Rupy: I'm serious. Yeah, yeah. He's so much respect as well.
Richie: Well, he's a traditional martial artist, you know. He's not just like some thug off the street. He's uh, he has deep respect for the the martial art and the game. And uh, yeah, he actually just retired yesterday.
Dr Rupy: Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, he's been getting on a bit. Like, I remember watching him like five, six years ago and like when he was at his peak. But um, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I think is like fascinating from like a psychological point of view as well. Because for those of you who don't know, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is, I'll let you explain.
Richie: Oh, yeah. So it's a it's a grappling style martial art in that there's no punching, there's no kicking, there's no strikes. It's purely like wrestling or like judo. And the way that you win, generally, if you take like competition points aside, is that you have to submit your opponent, make them tap. And that's either through normally a joint lock or a chokehold. And they either tap out and you let go or you go to sleep. And uh, but yeah, from a psychological perspective, you're completely right because what's different about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu on any grappling martial art versus like a striking martial art or kickboxing or what have you, is that when you spar, you can really go all out because you're not afraid about like punching the person or striking them. So you know, you're really trying to, you know, you're putting all your effort in. And uh, when you know that um, the only way for that to finish is for someone to submit, which is essentially like, you've got me, I have to give in to you. Um, it's a real test of your ego. It's really, really humbling. And you find a lot of people get incredible therapy out of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I think even the hashtag, you know, there's like the hashtag yoga saved my life is like a big one. I think it's hashtag BJJ saved my life is another one.
Dr Rupy: Oh, really? Okay. I'll check that one out. You know, it really brings back memories for me, uh, because when I was working in Manly and Mona Vale emergency department, one of our registrars was really into BJJ. And he would on his break sit there in front of the computer on YouTube and just watch BJJ, like loads of different masters from around the world just giving their tips and stuff. And he would like try and do stuff on me as well. And uh, I remember.
Richie: Just in the emergency, in the waiting room.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, in the waiting room. Yeah. I mean, it came useful sometimes actually when we had like, you know, some uh, drug addict patients coming in, unfortunately, lost their mind.
Richie: You have to restrain them.
Dr Rupy: I had to restrain them and stuff. But I remember his forearms were just so big and he just had such like a firm grip. He was the loveliest guy. But yeah, it's amazing.
Richie: You find a lot of Jiu-Jitsu practitioners are the loveliest people because they uh, whenever they're training, they're getting humbled over and over and over again, you know. Um, in their sparring and their training. So, yeah, I I used to love it. And I don't do it anymore, unfortunately, just because I kept getting injured.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Richie: Yeah. I've never met a uh, like a a black belt or anyone who's been doing it for a long time that doesn't have a chronic severe back injury, neck injury, knee injury. And I was just like, you know what, it's not worth it.
Dr Rupy: One of my good friends at the moment is doing it a lot and he's a general practitioner. And every now and I see him like every other week and he's like got a black eye or like cut here or like graze. I'm like, I thought it was meant to be grappling only, man.
Richie: You don't understand. Yeah, it's uh, it's a tricky one. It's it's really tough on your on uh, especially your your core, your spine, your neck. Um, and that was what I kept getting injured. And so I was like, I don't think I can do this anymore. I tapped out permanently. Um, I love it still. I did like capoeira for a little while. Any of these like movement-based like exercise or martial arts, I love.
Dr Rupy: Capoeira I think is beautiful. Like, you know, the way they move, fluid. You know, it's very um, what's the word for it? It's uh, it's not a predatory, it's um.
Richie: Primal?
Dr Rupy: Primal, that's the one. Yeah, predatory. Primal. Yeah, it's that that kind of primal movement where you're swinging your arms and the whole purpose is not to hit the other person, right?
Richie: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, when you're when you're doing the the they call it the hodas, which is when everyone's in a circle singing and playing instruments and you got the people in the middle. Yeah, it's supposed to be like a dance and a flow. And that's also really, really beautiful. I highly recommend it for anyone who's who's looking for a new way to work out because the fitness for it is crazy. Yeah, because it works on everything.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I remember seeing these capoeira dancers. I was travelling in Brazil during medical school, um, during the breaks, and just watching, I was just mesmerized by the music, first of all, because it's kind of that rhythmic sort of like continuous sound. And then these guys just like kicking and flying and missing each other and like it just, yeah, it's it's like a dance.
Richie: When you get when you get two experienced practitioners like dancing or sparring, or they call it playing, playing, um, it's it is mesmerizing. It's hypnotic just watching them in the flow and they they kind of become one, right? They kind of merge together and it's just incredible.
Dr Rupy: It's like watching a salsa or a tango or a ballroom dancing almost.
Richie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr Rupy: Just like, you know, in in uh, uh, pants and stuff.
Richie: Yeah, yeah, that's it. Less less less kicks to the head though.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I don't think you're going to see it on Strictly Come Dancing anytime soon.
Richie: No, no. Although, you know, that might take him pretty far if they if they mix it up a bit.
Dr Rupy: Strictly Come Capoeira. I can see it. I can see it.
Richie: Interesting. Okay, some new ideas there.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. We're really digressing.
Richie: A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. But it's okay. We can get back on track. Um, let me see, where was I? Oh, yeah. So I made that made that app. Um, so it was around the time when that was I was running that business, um, that my dad was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, MS. Um, and uh, there isn't like most autoimmune diseases, a real set cure. There isn't a take this pill and it will fix it. It's more of uh, a lifestyle change. It's more about really assessing what's going on in your life and seeing if there's something that you can do to help it. Um, so my mom and I, we've always really been into health and fitness. She's been a personal trainer, Pilates instructor, uh, dancer. So always been interested, um, and uh, and grew up around that kind of stuff, the health and wellbeing industry anyway. And uh, so, yeah, so we're always on the lookout for different alternative treatments, just things that he can do. And so on a podcast, um, quite a few years ago, I came across this guy, his name's Wim Hof. Known as the Iceman.
Dr Rupy: The Iceman.
Richie: Um, yeah. And uh, for those of you who haven't heard of him before, highly recommend a quick YouTube and just watch one of his videos. He's a unique character, um, but absolutely one of the most beautiful human beings I've ever met. And uh, so he was talking about, oh, no. So the reason why he's called the Iceman is because he holds, it's around about 20 world records all related to cold exposure. So.
Dr Rupy: There's a documentary on him, right?
Richie: Uh, there's a Vice documentary. That's kind of what blew him up a little bit. Yeah, quite a few years ago. Um, and uh, yeah. So, uh, he he's he's, what has he done? I mean, I think he holds the record for the longest time spent in an ice bath before his core body temperature changed. It was like an hour and 53 minutes or something like that.
Dr Rupy: An hour and 53 minutes.
Richie: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Uh, you know, he's run um, marathons in the Arctic Circle just wearing his his shorts. And when people were like, well, you're just crazy, you can just really, you're amazing at withstanding the cold. This is just your thing, genetic freak. He was like, well, okay, let's test this. And then ran a marathon in the Sahara, Sahara, one of the big deserts, um, without drinking water and zero training.
Dr Rupy: Oh my god.
Richie: Not recommended.
Dr Rupy: Not recommended. Yeah. Definitely not uh, medical practitioner approved.
Richie: Um, and uh, yeah. So, he was speaking on this podcast and he talked about his method, which involves uh, cold exposure activities, whether it's cold showers, um, ice baths, uh, and then also uh, breathing techniques. And he talked about it as, you know, it's a fantastic thing for everyone to do, great for everyone's health and wellbeing, but specifically really good for people who have autoimmune diseases. And I was like, okay, sounds interesting, what's this about? Did a bit of research. Uh, went to my dad, and uh, my dad, he's he's a old school Brit, right? So, you know, he's uh, maybe a bit more closed-minded, at least at the time. And uh, so I went to dad and I went, hey dad, this this old Dutch guy called the Iceman says that if you take a cold shower and breathe a bit, it's going to help your MS.
Dr Rupy: I can imagine the response.
Richie: And like, it made real sense when I said it. I was like, I'm trying to help you here, right? Like this is going to work. And uh, and then yeah, he just kind of looked at me and was like, okay, Rich, you can just like leave now. I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. I get it. Um, but you know, sometimes you just have a gut feel. And I was just so interested anyway that I went, okay, um, if I, so I was living in Hong Kong at the time, actually. And I I said to him, if I uh, go to Poland where he does these week-long retreats in the middle of winter where you learn the technique and then do all these things that um, that he does, uh, and I think it's interesting and worth exploring, will you at least just give it a go? And I can't say no to that, right? So, I signed up to one of these trainings, uh, hosted by one of his instructors. And uh, that trip in Poland was just transformative and just started everything, you know. Um, we uh, the very first day, uh, we did like a quick breathwork session in the morning, had breakfast, and then the instructor after breakfast was like, all right, guys, um, let's meet in the front of the hotel in 15 minutes, just wear your shorts. And we're like, wait, what's the instruction? We're going to like build up to this or what? Yeah. Uh, and then we get to the the front, and he's like, we're going to go for a little walk now. Um, it's minus six degrees outside, uh, but, you know what, it's okay, you got this. Hundreds of people have done this before and everyone's been okay. Just relax, slow down your breathing. Let's go.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Richie: And that was it. That was the instruction. And we all looked at each other and we're going, wow. Okay. And then we walked for nearly two hours in the snow, barefoot.
Dr Rupy: And you had no prior training?
Richie: Zero training. Wow. Just relax and trust. And everyone was fine. 25 of us there, all good. No problem whatsoever. And uh, so that's just one thing, you know, we did all the swimming in the ice lakes. Um, if you guys watch the Vice documentary, that's the retreat that I went on. It's the same place. Um, and uh, the the the crescendo of it all is that you climb the tallest mountain on the Czech-Polish border, takes about close to four hours to ascend, and it was like minus 19 degrees, plus wind and snow, just wearing your shorts.
Dr Rupy: In your shorts.
Richie: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Oh my god. That's incredible.
Richie: And uh, all 25 of us got up, no frostbite, no hypothermia, everyone's all good.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Richie: And, you know, people think, you know, oh, there's got to be some really special breathing technique for withstanding the cold. The breathing technique is part of the Wim Hof method, does help with the cold, but only for a short period of time once you finish the breathing. We would do a breathing session and then, you know, hours later do our cold stuff. So actually that breath technique didn't necessarily have the uh, didn't have the residual chemical changes that helps with dealing with cold. It helps in different ways. So really, it's everyone can do it. There's no magic to it. It's just about relaxation.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Richie: It's just about being able to and relax and say it's okay, I can withstand this. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: That's fascinating. I mean, I remember watching the documentaries and remember him uh, essentially his rebuttal to people saying, well, you're a a genetic freak, you know, there's some reason as to why you can do it and no one else can. And he was like, well, I'll just teach a few people. And so he taught a few people essentially the method that you're you're talking about. Um, and they were able to to uh, perform feats similar, perhaps not as extreme as him, but still as extreme as you've just described. That's pretty extreme.
Richie: Totally. And and the other thing is that he has a twin brother.
Dr Rupy: Right. I didn't know that.
Richie: Who can't do the things that he does.
Dr Rupy: Oh, really? Oh, wow. It's interesting.
Richie: So, so, so it's like, it's it's couldn't be a more perfect scenario, you know, for for debunking it's just a genetic thing. He has a twin brother that can't do the things he does. Um.
Dr Rupy: What's really interesting that you picked up on the fact that the breathing will only last for so long in terms of the chemical changes that you can measure in your blood. And we'll get into that a little bit later. But, you know, that's very, very interesting to me because I'm fascinated by the pathophysiology, the biochemical changes that can allow people to perform those sorts of feats that are unimaginable. Like I can't imagine myself doing that, but I'm intrigued. Um, but that that in itself is a massive mystery to me. I mean, we're definitely evolutionarily uh, we've we've uh, developed an evolutionary um, uh, performance level so we can withstand those sorts of conditions, otherwise we wouldn't be able to survive. But that in itself is is still, it's quite perplexing to me. I don't I don't get it.
Richie: It's I I am such a huge believer that we do not understand not even half, like barely anything that we're capable of as human beings. Um, I uh, I'm a big fan of this guy called Dr. Joe Dispenza. This is a bit off breathwork, but um, he preaches, preaches is not the right word. He teaches uh, a way of thinking about the mind-body connection, um, and then also how that kind of interacts with our external environment as well. And uh, he goes on about a lot of things, but one of his big things he focuses on is self-healing. So the being able to heal yourself from things that we're not supposed to be able to, uh, purely through thought and meditation. Really amazing guy. And I've been following his work for quite some time. Uh, he's got quite a few books out and I've I I've been doing his exercises and absolutely love them. Um, and he did a retreat in Brighton last year in November. And I went along. Uh, it's retreat's a loose word because there were 900 people there. So it was like a like a a week-long event. It's like a conference. Yeah, yeah. And um, uh, I wanted to see other people doing it, people because I'm very fortunate that I don't have too many uh, physical ailments and I wanted to see people who really had some some things going on and see what they were able to do. And uh, I uh, I saw some things and I'll just I'll tell you exactly what only things that I witnessed with my own eyes and saw. Uh, there was a guy, um, in the beginning with Parkinson's disease, full tremors all over, uh, had to walk with two canes, um, and major pain going up and down his spine. After, I think it was three days, only tremors left in his right hand and no pain whatsoever, walking completely unassisted. People with uh, major food intolerances, celiac, that kind of thing, eating bread, pasta, anything with zero symptoms after a couple of days. Um, uh, a lady who was partially blind from a stroke, full vision restored after a few days.
Dr Rupy: That's crazy.
Richie: And purely through the power of the mind. Um, and it all sounds super woo-woo. And even in my mind, it's kind of like, is that really possible? But then you witness it and you go, wow, okay, maybe there's something to this. And, you know, I went in super open-minded anyway because, like, I teach breathing for a living. And uh, and so you to do that, you kind of have to be pretty open-minded anyway. Um, and through my own experiences with breathwork, I have seen incredible transformation, things that you would not believe. Um.
Dr Rupy: I'd love to get into that in a bit.
Richie: Of course, yeah, of course.
Dr Rupy: Because I'm a firm believer. I mean, your story with with your father. Oh, we didn't finish the story.
Richie: Oh, we didn't finish it. No, diverted again.
Dr Rupy: Well, let's go for that.
Richie: So, so, okay. So I came back to Poland, showed dad the photos, told him the stories. Um, to cut a long story short, he went, okay, there's maybe something to this. Um, fast forward, you know, four years now, um, he's been breathing every day, cold showers every day, changed his diet in a big way, which is, as you know, very, very important, specifically for people with autoimmune issues. Um, and his MS uh, progression just stopped in its tracks.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Richie: Yeah. He hasn't had a single attack since.
Dr Rupy: He's in complete remission at the moment.
Richie: Complete remission.
Dr Rupy: That's incredible. That's very, very interesting.
Richie: So, and I've shared the story on like a few magazine articles and stuff, and I've had people reach out and say like, I'm doing the same thing and it works.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Richie: You know.
Dr Rupy: That's that's really, I mean, like, the there's so much nuance to the subject, particularly with an MS. I mean, there's different types and, you know, some are secondary and and primary, some are relapsing, remitting, etc. Um, but uh, I the story does certainly resonate with me on a number of levels. When I had my own issues with atrial fibrillation, which is an irregular heart rhythm, I was beating very fast and there were no clear triggers and this was going on over about a year, a year and a half or so. Um, I was told to uh, have a potentially curative procedure involving um, an intervention where uh, a part of the heart is essentially burnt with a laser. And all my colleagues were um, definitely supportive of this action. I was a very good candidate for it. It's a relatively safe procedure. The one person who wasn't was my mom, who isn't medically trained, who is very of the much of the mind of um, an Ayurvedic way of life and and I know that comes into breathing and we'll chat about that in a bit. Um, but she was the one that asked me to examine my lifestyle and try to optimize every element that was in the locus of my control. So my stress, breathing, meditation that I was taught when I was a teenager, uh, food, obviously, uh, sleep hygiene, all these different things. Uh, and I think it it really serves and and yes, after, you know, a period of a year or so, my AF episodes uh, relinquished and and you know, I've been AF free for a number of years now and I still have the checks with cardiologist and for them it's perplexing, for me, again, it is still like I'm trying to retrospectively figure out what I did. And I think it serves as a metaphor for a lot of people who don't really understand just how much control we have over our own physiology. Breathing is your sort of um, uh, focus and and perhaps your bias as well on that. But collectively, you know, we have so many different elements of our lifestyle that we can control to improve our wellbeing. Breathwork, yes, diet, sleep hygiene, stress management, uh, community, sense of purpose, a whole bunch of other things that I I talk about in the books and stuff and the rest of the podcast. But it's it's educating people on how they can become experts of their own health that I'm super passionate about. And I love hearing these stories. They're they're really amazing. And you know, I think the biggest secret uh, for a lot of people is that your body is one incredible self-healing machine. And that sounds very woo, but when you look at the uh, chemistry, when you cut your hand, for example, and, you know, the rebuilding of the skin and how the inflammatory process is very adaptive to essentially signal and these beautifully designed pathways to fix something. You know, this is something that is happening every day of every second, like trillions of different processes happening simultaneously. When you understand that, you begin to to figure out why certain things can happen and why, you know, if we put our body in the best environment, it can lead to these remarkable improvements.
Richie: I I couldn't agree with you more. And I know like my my focus is breathwork, absolutely. And, you know, because it had such a big effect on my life, um, and the people that I've seen around me, um, but a big part of that is also just because there isn't a focus enough yet. And so I've just seen this this this huge gap and gone, guys, like this is something that needs attention because, you know, there's seven billion people on this planet, all of whom can breathe. You know, maybe not everyone feels like doing yoga or going to the gym. Maybe not everyone has access to the healthiest food, but everyone can breathe. And for now, it's free. So like, for now, but and so, so there's, you know, if if if increasing the quality of your life by 10% is as simple as learning a little bit about your breathing and being able to use it in a way that's useful for you, then that's such an easy win. But I'm so I completely agree, you know, I with diet, um, lifestyle, um, any lifestyle, whether it's sleep, stress, I mean, I can't I can't um, emphasize stress enough, you know. My my my brother's a physio, absolutely incredible physio back in Oz. Um, you know, he sees 70 patients a week. And uh, he was he, I think like five, six years ago said the number one problem is stress in our society. And back then, I was in the most stressful job in the world and I was like, yeah, whatever, man, you just don't get it. Um, but now I see it.
Dr Rupy: It's that sort of like that dualistic perspective we have in medicine actually of mind and body being separate. You know, we treat the body and we we treat the mind. Well, that's up to the psychiatrist, the psychologist. The two are not connected, whereas actually, you know, there is a huge cranial nerve that starts in the brain, crosses the blood-brain barrier, goes straight into the spleen and is responsible for inflammatory proteins and stuff. And we can manipulate that with with breathing and other stress-relieving techniques. And the mind-body interventions, I think are gathering a lot more attention, at least in the scientific field, um, certainly warrant more attention on the ground as frontline practitioners and just generally for people to know about.
Richie: Commend your work, man. That's great.
Dr Rupy: Well, let's get into that. So you after that um, retreat, uh, you came back and then what happened?
Richie: Came back and uh, so, um, I had an incredible experience and the cold work is is fantastic, but the breathing is what really got me. Um, you know, before I've always had um, episodes of depression in my life and kind of like this underlying existential anxiety, you know, just that thinking of like, why am I here? Like, what's the point of all this? What's the what are we supposed to do in this life? And uh, and the first time I had a deep breathwork session using the Wim Hof method in Poland, uh, gave me so much clarity, gave me all these incredible feelings, this this incredible feeling this first time of just like complete power and confidence and like I can do anything and that like my past is not part of me at all. I'm here right now in the present and I can do anything. And and I never forgot that experience. And I was like, man, if everyone could have that, this would that would be incredible. And then throughout the week, you know, having different experiences each time doing different breathing sessions, and it just shifted so much for me mentally and emotionally. Um, so once I came back, I'm telling you, completely changed just after one week. It was transformative. And that started my obsession of like, okay, so what else are people doing with breathing? Like, is this the only thing? And after doing a lot of research, I found out that there are a lot of ways to breathe. And there are a lot of people doing different things. Yeah. Um, so you have your more traditional, more well-known um, practices like, you know, it's Pranayama, so yogic styles of breathing, Kundalini. Um, and then the Chinese.
Dr Rupy: Pranayama, just for the listener, is the uh, yogic breathing where you use your nostrils, you block.
Richie: Pranayama is is is the the umbrella term for all the breathing techniques as part of the yoga tradition. So that's like alternative nostril breathing is just one technique. Yeah. And then um, uh, in Chinese medical breathing, so things like Qigong, um, and even in Tai Chi, uh, so those are like kind of well-known now. Um, but then there was this whole underground, almost like uh, all these underground styles of breathing that sat kind of in like alternative therapy land. Um, and these are things like, I'll say some names might not mean much to many people, but like Rebirthing, Holotropic Breathwork, and mainly from those two guys, there's stemmed a whole bunch of other styles as well. And um, that was interesting because you start to hear about people who are having these incredible cathartic emotional releases, shifting years of trauma in one breath session, having transcendental experiences where they meet past loved ones or meet God and all this kind of very out there stuff that was like, I mean, that sounds kind of crazy that you can just do that by breathing. Um, but I had such an interesting experience and did something I didn't know I could do in Poland, maybe there's something there as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. It almost parallels like some of the experiences that people have on psychedelics as well. And psychedelics are becoming very popular, I think, in in terms of a scientific uh, perspective. So there's some really interesting research looking at specific types of psychedelic substances on um, PTSD, on uh, major depressive episodes. Um, there's a whole bunch of of of uh, papers now being published on it because I think recently, uh, I think it was the FDA allowed scientists to start using these substances in the lab.
Richie: Yeah, in the lab. And I think, I think it's, I think it's the state of Oregon in the States and they're looking at 2020 trying to legalize psilocybin. Yeah, uh, for medical use. Um, so we're I think we are moving in that in that direction where people are becoming much more understanding, just removing the stigma of things and going, what does it actually do? Like what evidence do we have of what it can actually what can happen? Um, and I have a theory and it's yet to be proven because for certain styles of breathwork, there's not enough research around it yet. But I have a theory that for a lot of those deeper, what I call integrative styles of breathwork where you are going into the states of mind where you can have those cathartic releases, what's happening in the body and your physiology is very similar to when you do psychedelics.
Dr Rupy: Right.
Richie: Yeah. Um, it's my it's my theory at this point.
Dr Rupy: Because I have a theory about one of the reasons why we experience post-runner's high or euphoric effects after having a hit training session. When you're doing a hit training session, you're really breathing fast. So not only are you uh, combining the breathwork, you're also combining it with the anti-inflammatory effects of the exercise, you're pushing yourself very very fast. And so perhaps that is in part why people feel feel so energized and refreshed after doing hit training. It improves your motivation, improves your mood. I personally do hit training in the morning and I know when I don't, I'm less happy throughout the whole day or I'm less sort of like uh, I'm less active. I'm just like, you know, I've obviously done my hit training this morning, so I'm feeling pretty happy about myself. But I think that might be one of, it's just a hypothesis, but yeah.
Richie: The happy hormone factory is on is is uh, is producing, right? Yeah. Um, absolutely. And you know, there's a there's a great book, um, it's called Stealing Fire. Um, and I am just blanking on the author and he's incredibly well-known, so this is really annoying. But Stealing Fire. And it's all about going into states of flow. Um, and uh, uh, he talks about psychedelics specifically and he um, outlines a few things that are very, very interesting. He references uh, this phenomenon called what's called transient hypofrontality where um, the the activity in the more advanced parts of the human brain, like the prefrontal cortex, gets turned down and you start to experience more of what's happening in the emotional parts and the more primal parts, like your limbic system. Um, it's my impression that this is the exact same thing that happens when you're doing breathwork.
Dr Rupy: Sounds interesting.
Richie: Yeah. And and so that's why you can have these emotional releases is that the parts of the brain that are responsible for essentially holding stuff in, you know, because the the prefrontal cortex and these advanced parts of our brain are the parts that, you know, keep track of time, um, personality, rules and regulations, you know, everything that makes us human that allows us to do all these great things like making podcasts and that kind of thing, that gets, you know, put to the side for a second and we get to come down into what's what's there and dig a little bit deeper. And then you can start to experience things.
Dr Rupy: I find that very interesting actually because there have been some studies looking at, I can't remember the types of breathing work that they did, but they looked at activity in the prefrontal cortex after having breathing uh, um, exercises and they found greater activity. Um, and the subjective experiences of those uh, people in in the trials married that of, you know, someone becoming a little bit more creative, feeling a bit more happy about themselves. And that sort of um, uh, process of going back into your like limbic system and actually uh, having greater awareness of your surroundings. I mean, it does sound like a psychedelic experience for people.
Richie: Well, a lot of people who come to my classes, they come they come out of it and they're like, this stuff's better than MDMA. Like, I just feel like I'm I've just been tripping on acid. And it's just breathing. Uh, you know, getting high on your own supply, right? It's uh, it's uh, yeah, it's it's uh, you can use breathing for so many reasons, right? And um.
Dr Rupy: For those who are interested actually in psychedelics, not that I uh, encourage people to try psychedelics or MDMA. Um, How to Change Your Mind is a book by Michael Pollan. Uh, he's a fantastic science writer. He did um, the Omnivore's Dilemma, which is another great read. But um, he's done a deep dive into the world of psychedelics, when it when the term psychedelic was actually coined, uh, what the research uh, was showing pre um, the time that it was banned, and what the current research is looking at at the moment. He actually self-experimented a whole bunch of times with different types in different clinical scenarios with guides, etc. Um, he's not actually a fan of it being freely available at this point in time, um, which I'm in agreement with actually. His reasons are described in this book. And it's a fantastic book, I think. You can listen to it on Audible as well. I'll put the links in the show notes. Um, but I think, yeah, it's definitely something uh, that is framing a a different way of looking at the mind itself.
Richie: Yes. I've read the book as well. It is amazing. Um, look, I've been to Peru. I've uh, I have a curious mind and and especially doing breathwork, I want to be very, very open to things that could help people. And uh, before you start to give advice to others and and teach people things, you have to research yourself, right? And see what it's about. So, um, so yeah, uh, I completely agree. Um, it just it just, like you said, it just frames this perspective that so much is possible, you know? And I think for so many people, that's the biggest block to their own healing in particular, uh, to their own health and to their own happiness is that they just that they don't believe that there is a way for them to to get there. You know, and with with, you know, more and more evidence, well, don't even really need evidence anymore. Neuroplasticity, it's a thing. We know that we can rewire the way that we think. I know I mentioned Dr. Joe Dispenza before. He has a great book called Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. Amazing, amazing book. Yeah, yeah. And he.
Dr Rupy: I've never heard of this guy.
Richie: Oh, you got to, you will like him, I promise. Um, he's uh, he's he's uh, he's a doctor of chiro originally, but then has further education in neuroscience and the cool thing about his work is that he backs everything up with science. Like he's done all the research, all the fMRIs, all the HRV work, like he really looks into it deeply. And uh, um, yeah, so I think I think it's really, really exciting and all these different things, whether it's breathwork, whether it's um, psychedelics, whether it's uh, food, lifestyles, you know, it's it's all just they're all just different tools. And and some stuff will work better for others, but I'm a big believer in in the holistic approach that there needs to be an element of everything.
Dr Rupy: Why don't we break it down a bit? Because I think uh, we've just dived straight into this and we're going down a rabbit hole, which is which is exactly what happens whenever, you know, we get two uh, creative people talking about it. But um, breathing itself is quite uh, an incredible activity that has both um, involuntary and voluntary um, control. Um, it's something that's very unique to breathing. And I think um, it's something that a lot of people don't really understand. I mean, we don't really think about our breath as as being a tool at all. But it there is certainly, and I always think this, there is a reason, sounds very Darwinian, but there is a reason why we have developed the way we have. There is a reason why we sleep, for example. There is a reason why we have both involuntary and voluntary uh, uh, ability to to change our breathing. In the same way, we don't have that ability for our heart, well, not as consciously anyway. But um, why don't we talk a bit about that?
Richie: Yeah. And, you know, there's like it's a, to simplify one of the laws of nature is, if you don't use it, you lose it, right? So if we have a function in our body, it's because that it serves a purpose. Like you said, you know, breathing is, I think, pretty sure the only function that is completely unconscious, but then also completely under our control. Um, you know, most people have never thought about their breathing their entire life. Yet if we if everyone would just take a deep breath in now, and just relax out, you can follow along easily.
Dr Rupy: Exactly.
Richie: Yeah, everyone can do it.
Dr Rupy: I imagine everyone just did that.
Richie: And um, and uh, yeah. So, and that's why it's so interesting and so unique as a tool. Because our breathing is governed by this thing called the autonomic nervous system, um, it's the only part or only function of the of the autonomic nervous system that we do have control over. Therefore, it's the gateway. It's like the lever that we that allows us to get into there and start to control all the things that this nervous system is responsible for. And as it turns out, it's responsible for some pretty important things, you know, whether it's our endocrine system, cardiovascular system, respiratory systems, um, you name it, there's an element of autonomic uh, activity there. So, that's why it can be so useful. And, you know, ancient traditions have known this forever, you know, whether they knew that was the reason why, but they've worked it out and have been able to utilize this great tool that everyone has called breathing, um, into their practice to improve their, you know, their their physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing. And it's so nice now that the science, at least in the West, is starting to catch up, um, and and prove out more, okay, this is why it works. You know, science is the language of our times, right? It's it's what resonates with everybody. Some people are able to believe in different things without necessarily scientific proof, but if there's science there, it means that, all right, this is pretty definitive, we're pretty on board with this. And so it's so nice to see that happening and I want to bring more of that to um, into breathwork because there are other types of breathwork that haven't been, haven't uh, had science, you know, dive into so much yet.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I found a lot of um, interesting articles actually when I was researching for my second book, Eat to Beat Illness, because not only do I go into the food and the nutritional science uh, with regard to improving our brain health, our immune health, our our cardiovascular health, um, I talk about the lifestyle um, sort of additions to that. And time and time again, there's a few practices, uh, yogic exercises, uh, Qigong, like you mentioned, and a couple of others. Um, but also breathing and stress-relieving techniques and mind-body interventions, of which those are a couple as well. And there was a paper, um, that I think I reference in the book from uh, two associate clinical psychiatrist professors at Columbia University in New York. And they summarized a lot of the work looking at uh, breathwork and why this has almost like pleiotropic effects on so many different issues, whether it be uh, improving your immunity or cardiovascular disease, for example. There's a few things that we do know that happens when we breathe. Um, but I think that's distinct for certain types of breathing. And I think we'll get into that in a second. But as a rule of thumb, yes, BDNF is increased, which is brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which is uh, a factor that we use and there's a whole bunch of things that can upregulate BDNF as well as other trophic factors. But that increases neurogenesis, which is the production of new neuronal cells, um, which is obviously important for cognition, protecting against dementia as well and cognitive decline that happens as we age as we build up um, oxidative stress in our cells. Um, it improves heart rate variability, which is very topical right now. I think a lot of people have got HRV monitors. I think the Apple Watch might even have one.
Richie: Yeah, they have an ECG now, I think, in the latest one. So they're really getting into it.
Dr Rupy: I remember getting that actually because at the time I was trying to monitor my own atrial fibrillation episodes and trying to capture the beats. It was very easy for me. I just walk into my A&E and speak to my consultant like, can you do an ECG on me? But um, but heart rate variability, uh, for those of you who don't know, it's the variability between each heartbeat um, uh, that we experience during the day. And in a stressed state, you actually have a uh, lower HRV. Uh, and in an unstressed state, as uh, you have a higher HRV. So you have a higher variability, which doesn't sound very intuitive to a lot of people initially. You think, oh, why is it, why is it more variability?
Richie: Shouldn't it be steady?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, like why are you scatterbrained? I like to think of it as like, you know, you're chilled out, you don't really care about how variable you are, you know, you're just, whereas if you're if you're stressed, you're very, you know, to the, I'm tapping on the desk right now. The producers probably looking at me. Um, but you're in that stressed state, you're you've got a lower variability and you're very rigid essentially. Um, and that correlates with a lot of uh, cardiovascular issues as well as mental health issues, uh, and a couple of other features as well, which I I find absolutely fascinating.
Richie: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, breathing has a very profound effect on your HRV. Um, you know, you can even check it yourself. If you hold your pulse and feel your pulse and then inhale and just feel how fast it's beating and then exhale and then see how fast it's beating, you'll find that just by doing that, you'll feel the speed of your pulse change. Uh, yeah, HRV is, you know, it's a great measure of, um, I'm not sure if anyone calls it this, but I call it this, um, uh, your, yeah, your nervous system flexibility. You know, it's your ability to be able to switch between this active state and this passive, more peaceful state.
Dr Rupy: I like that description. It's a really interesting description of that because we have um, like metabolic flexibility as a as a, I think it's a term anyway, between how well you can be adapted to a high carbohydrate versus a low carbohydrate diet. Um, which I, yeah, which I think, sorry, carry on.
Richie: And uh, and um, so yeah, the if and if you check your heart rate, your your pulse and if if you see a significant difference between your inhales versus your exhales, then it's showing that, you know, your HRV is high, you have more of that nervous system flexibility, which is a great thing. Um, which is.
Dr Rupy: I can imagine like in ancient traditions, they would have done it that way because they didn't obviously have the technology back then to measure HRV, right?
Richie: You know, there's um, what they've worked out, researchers have worked out is there's a, they they they've termed it coherent breathing. Um, and they did research to work out what is the optimal pace to be able to breathe to be able to maximize your HRV. And what they did through all their trials is that it's somewhere between three and a half to six depending uh, breaths per minute depending on the person.
Dr Rupy: Six and a half to 10 breaths per minute.
Richie: Three and a half to six breaths per minute.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And that is low.
Richie: It's super, super low, considering most people would breathe somewhere between 14 to 20 times a minute.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, I thought like when I when I rest at night, my breath uh, is around 15 to 16 per minute. So that's in a in a very relaxed state, I find, but.
Richie: Yeah, I I would, yeah, look at trying to bring that down. And three and a half to six is not necessarily your resting state. If that's a purposeful, conscious state. Like I tell people generally if you can get it between 9 to 12, that's fantastic. That's also, just just for for reference, that breath is uh, inhale and an exhale of the same length. So coherent breathing, I believe is five breaths per minute, which is a six-second inhale and a six-second exhale. And that is a great, great, great technique uh, for helping to relax. Um, because it's balancing and harmonizing your frequencies across your brain, across your heart, across your lungs. Um, and just, yeah, and calming everything down in a really nice way. Um, but again, that's one way to use your breath to affect that. There are other ways as well. Um, I uh, I had this uh, med-tech company come to one of my classes and they've, I don't think they created it, but at least they have a device that measures something called cardiovagal tone. Um, so vagal tone, for anyone who doesn't know it, uh, is a measure of activity in the vagus nerve, which is one of the biggest nerves as part of your parasympathetic nervous system, which is your relaxation part of your nervous system.
Dr Rupy: It's the 10th cranial nerve that goes all the way down to the past the diaphragm into the spleen.
Richie: Exactly. And it's uh, and so vagal tone is a great measure of essentially how relaxed you are. Um, so the higher, the better. And so these guys wanted to come and they wanted to see what is this breathing class doing? Um, and the breathing class that I do isn't putting on some whale song and breathing nice and gently and just relaxing and falling off to sleep. No, it's that's a it's a scientifically formulated sequence of breathing techniques to create effects in the body on purpose. Um, so there's some very fast breathing at some point, there'll be slow breathing at some point, there'll be breath holding at some point, there'll be even muscle tension, a whole bunch of different things happen. Um, and so they they chucked on the device and they measured a couple of people and then we were looking at the results afterwards and the the guy, the scientist who was looking at the results, he's like proper dry kind of fellow. Really nice guy, but you know, wasn't showing his emotions. And he was looking at the data and I was looking over his shoulder and it wasn't really making sense to me. I couldn't really work out what what it was saying. So I kind of asked him, I went, okay, is this good? Is this bad? What what's going on? And with a completely stone face, he just goes, this is remarkable. And I just kind of looked at him for a little while. I was like, are you taking the piss or are you being serious? What we were able to measure was we were able to increase vagal tone over a 20-minute breathing session, not just a little bit, not even just doubling it, which by itself would be crazy, not even tripling it, not even quadrupling it. We increased it by nearly 600%.
Dr Rupy: That's incredible.
Richie: And it it, yeah, yeah, absolutely nuts. Um, so, so there are some really amazing things that we can do. And I and you know, I I knew that that was going to be the case just because of the feedback that I always see and the results I see in people. People come out of the breathing sessions and they go, I've never experienced anything like that in my life. I've never felt this way before. I think so many people in this particular modern society have just this base level of stress, they've forgotten what it actually feels like to be relaxed. So they're so used to operating out of this sympathetic nervous system that even when they are kind of relaxed, they're still relatively sympathetic and they've completely forgotten what it's like to actually be in a state of pure relaxation, which when you look into what a lot of the ancient traditions will say, it's supposed to be like a almost like a blissful, euphoric, peaceful state of feeling so good for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Um, and uh, and yeah, this allows people to start to get back to that and start to go, oh my gosh, like, I didn't know that I could feel this way. Maybe I did once, but I've forgotten.
Dr Rupy: For the listeners, like, it's quite interesting to hear that because I obviously you know it intuitively that's what they're experiencing and now you have some of the evidence to back that up. Um, but what's going on in the in psychiatry is this understanding of uh, the mind-body connection and how increasing vagal tone specifically might actually be a therapeutic option. So it stems from this idea of inflammation being in part related to mental uh, health conditions, in particular, um, anxiety, low mood, even severe mental uh, health issues as well. And if you can control um, or increase vagal tone to reduce the production of inflammatory proteins like cytokines, um, that can actually cross the blood-brain barrier and cause uh, in some way, a causal with mental health issues. Um, then this could be a a genuine therapeutic option. And there are actually pharmaceutical companies looking at devices to increase vagal tone. I obviously shudder to that because I think there are other things that we can do before we get to that point where we're, you know, attaching people to electronic devices to essentially uh, increase vagal tone. And that is a very, very interesting technique that I think is is catching on in some of the psychiatric world anyway.
Richie: Oh, absolutely. And I'm I'm being approached uh, quite often by people in in the mental health industry asking, you know, is there a way to learn what you teach? Um, and obviously, you know, there's there's a whole bunch of things that you can do. Um, and I think eventually I'm going to have to start a school or something. It's uh, yeah, and it's but that cycle, like, so, you know, you you absolutely hit the the nail on the head. Um, you know, I actually, Dr. Joe said this, Dr. Joe Dispenza, this guy I keep talking about. I should be a salesman, I swear. Um, you know, he has this, he has this quote where he goes, if if thoughts are the language of the mind, then feelings are the language of the body. So, you know, we have certain thoughts um, that happen, um, yeah, in our mind and then that can trigger an emotion to happen within the body. And as you know, an emotion is simply a chemical reaction that happens and creates certain sensations and then we group those sensations together and we define that as a feeling or an emotion. Um, but what then happens is if you start to feel, let's just take stress as as one that's very common, the body the mind then picks up, oh, I'm feeling the stress, starts to think more stressful thoughts, which then creates more stressful chemicals, which then creates more stressful thoughts and you get into that pattern. And it can be super, super hard to break because it is like a, you know, you're spiraling out of control. If you can use something like breathing as a way of taking the mind out of the body and creating a path out of that vicious cycle, because it can be quite hard, like meditation, for example, is another great way to do it. But like, meditation is like using the mind to control the mind or to teach the mind, which can be quite tricky. Super works, you know, a thousand years of tradition. I meditate every single morning. Um, but can be tricky, especially for people who are just starting. But breathing is using the body to get control of the mind. So you don't actually have to think anything. You just have to know, I know that I can use this technique because it does this. So let's just sit down, do this for five minutes, and it's just going to work.
Dr Rupy: I can see it almost like a gateway into meditation, right? Because in the same way, you know, we have to sharpen our body, we have to look after it with food, you know, changing the way we think using a physical tool that we all have, lungs, the ability to breathe in and out. Um, that that's that's quite a unique way of looking at it actually. I never thought about it in that way.
Richie: And for those meditators out there, um, there's breathing practices that you can do to act as like a speed ramp into your meditation practice so that you get much more bang for your buck. I know there's all these like, like transcendental meditation, like and all these ones where it's like, you know, 20 minutes short and sharp, but you get like really good results, but then for the first 10 minutes, you're just kind of fidgeting, being like, don't think, don't think, don't think. Um, you can breathe in a certain way for like three to five minutes that's almost straight away going to switch off that thinking brain so that when you do your 20 minutes of meditation, you're getting like the absolute maximum efficiency.
Dr Rupy: I'm fascinated by how we can actually test these theories because I think the one of the most commonly accepted uh, understandings is that it increases GABA in the brain, which is a testable hypothesis, but it also reduces cortisol uh, effects as well. So it'd be interesting because I think the the conversation with breathing and meditation is always generally polarized towards mental health issues, stress, anxiety related issues, etc. But actually, there's uh, some gathering evidence about how mind-body interventions, breathing of one is one of them, can be um, uh, utilized in immunotherapy, uh, can be used as part of longevity uh, techniques, reducing the issues of aging, inflammation is one. Um, I find that as a as like almost like the sky's the limit for for these sorts of interventions.
Richie: I think um, and I apologize because I think we've gone through this conversation and I actually haven't even said what breathwork is yet. And I think it's probably an important thing to mention, um, because that really frames a really good add-on to what you've just said. Um, so I define breathwork because there's kind of a lot of definitions and different schools have kind of taken it and made it their own. But I simply say breathwork is anytime you become aware of your breathing and then use it purposefully to change and improve your physical, mental, or emotional states. Simple as that, really.
Dr Rupy: That's a really succinct, nice way to describe it.
Richie: And it kind of captures everything, right? So whether you're doing Pranayama, whether you're doing these, you know, these transcendental styles of breathing where you're having divine experiences or just like a two to three minute technique just to help you to calm down. It's it's all breathwork. Anytime you're using breathing, it's that's breathwork. Um, and so yeah, to your point, you know, once and I think this is where more research can become super useful is that different breathing differently in different ways is going to affect your physiology differently. So in the same way that you said, yeah, you know, you can breathe in certain ways to decrease your adrenaline, decrease your cortisol levels, increase GABA, no doubt. But then you can also breathe in a certain way to do the exact opposite if that's what you want to do. For example, to create energy in the body, sometimes it's nice to increase a bit of adrenaline, you know? And if we, I do breathing techniques with uh, athletes in particular, um, athletes are a really interesting one because before competition, either they will have, they'll they'll need to relax and calm down or they'll need to get up and get energized. People will either become really lethargic when they're nervous or they'll become hyperactive. So you need to be able to create a technique that works for both of those people. Um, so sometimes you need to pump them up or sometimes you need to, okay, bring them down a bit. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: I always remember Lennox Lewis going into fights back in the day. I don't know if you ever watched him coming out of the changing room. He would sleep. He would literally have like a little nap, right, before he goes out and fights.
Richie: Yeah. So sometimes you need just that little pump up, right? And you breathe in certain ways to make that happen for yourself chemically, neurologically. Um, and uh, so yeah, so you can use breathing in all sorts of different ways. Uh, and it's interesting where we direct the research or the study or where we emphasize, um, what to look at because, um, I mean, the like you said, the sky is the limit.
Dr Rupy: It could be used for so many different things. I mean, the research is looking at, you know, cardiovascular disease and um, things like gastrointestinal issues. I mean, you've had some patients, right, with some clients with IBS symptoms and they've improved.
Richie: And so I've had people with IBS who've come in and again, um, you know, IBS is highly linked to stress and stress is highly linked to the way that you breathe. And vice versa. So watching the way that they breathe, I can any any any person with a with a digestive issue, I already know how they're going to be breathing. Like I can just picture it right now. Um, and so all we do is make some simple changes and even without any further intervention from dietary or or any other medical supplementation, um, they can have drastic improvements in their symptoms. And uh, and it was again, just as simple as learning to breathe correctly.
Dr Rupy: Just as simple as that.
Richie: Yeah. Um, even even things like lower back pain, which is huge for so many people is caused uh, in a lot of cases, um, in my experience by just the constant bracing of the muscles and intrinsic muscles in that area. Um, and learning to breathe correctly means that you have to relax those muscles. So there are certain techniques and exercises that you can do. Um, and I know a good friend of mine is also a Wim Hof instructor. Um, and is, you know, big into breathing and uh, does that with all his patients. I think last time we talked about it, he was like, I can pretty much guarantee that any patient I have who has chronic chronic back pain that, you know, no longer has anything to do with uh, trauma, um, he can get rid of in like 10 days.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Richie: Just by doing 10 days of these breathing exercises and it'll be gone.
Dr Rupy: And just posture and stuff like that.
Richie: Yeah, well, because it's yeah, it's all one and the same. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Rupy: I remember going to, so I I um, I told you at the start, I I'd been to a Wim Hof session where uh, it was in LA, it was a summit and a conference, and he got us all to do these breathing exercises, which we should probably try some actually in a second. Make sure if you are listening to this, you're like, you're at home, you're sat on a seat or something, you're not driving or anything. Um, but he got us all to do these exercises where we over-oxygenate and we hyperventilate essentially. And then um, held our breath for two minutes. And everyone was able to do it. It was quite remarkable. There was like 300 people there. It was it was pretty remarkable.
Richie: So, I would like to um, say something around the over-oxygenation part. Because um, I think for people who have tried a breathwork class before or something, the people are, like breathworkers are going to say quite often, because most people, this is what their understanding, uh, is, yeah, we're going to be introducing lots of oxygen into the body and that's why you're going to get all these sensations and. Um, you know, our blood is already mostly saturated, you know, we sit most people are at a healthy 97, like 98% uh, blood oxygen saturation. Um, and doing a lot of deep breathing isn't necessarily going to increase oxygen that much. Um, because there's not much scope for more oxygen to be increased. What it does do is it does decrease a lot of carbon dioxide. You blow out a lot of carbon dioxide. And that um, so when you do Wim Hof styles or any of these big hyperventilating, hyperventilating styles of breathing, which is what it is, hyperventilating has a bad name, um, bad rap because when people, they link it to things like panic attacks and if you are have like a breathing disorder where you're chronically hyperventilating, that can lead to all sorts of issues for sure.
Dr Rupy: In fact, you know, when I look at um, blood gases uh, in the emergency department, you know, I can I can see, you know, when someone's come in, panic attack and stuff, we we have a look at the pH and usually we see a respiratory alkalosis because of low carbon dioxide. A little bit higher PO2 as well.
Richie: And they um, yeah, so hyperventilation if it's controlled and done with a purpose can do some really interesting things. Um, you know, so Wim Hof method, you're going to be hyperventilating, a lot of these um, uh, integrative forms of breathwork where you are having these crazy experiences, it's hyperventilation, but it's not a bad thing if it's done purposefully for a short period of time and it's controlled. Um, but yeah, so you're decreasing your carbon dioxide. So that's the reason why everyone can hold their breath for so long. It's because your oxygen levels jumped up a bit, but then your carbon dioxide just tumbled down. And so all of a sudden the and for those who don't know, um, the trigger to be able to to feel like you need to breathe isn't due to a lack of oxygen in the body, it's actually due to a buildup of carbon dioxide. A lot of people don't realize that, but that's actually the marker.
Dr Rupy: So we have baroreceptors in our brain that will measure the carbon dioxide level and that will be the trigger for you to to breathe essentially. So that it's a it's it's actually quite harrowing when you when you have to like, you know, if you're trying to hold your breath in the swimming pool, for example, or I remember doing this as kids and stuff and it's, you know, it's it's very anxiety provoking. And that's why I was quite surprised that so many people did it in a very calm fashion. But I suppose when you think about the the physiology behind it, it makes perfect sense.
Richie: It's super interesting and like one of the reasons why those styles of breathwork, specifically Wim Hof method is so useful for people and um, uh, is is that you're putting your body under a state of stress, but you're doing it consciously, you are in control. We keep talking about mind-body connection. You're starting to build this link between the body being in a stress response with this deep, fast breathing, which is actually causing an increase in adrenaline. Um, and and putting the body into a sympathetic mode. Um, and being like, but it's okay, I'm doing this, I am in control. And then you do the breath hold and for a little while, the breath hold's actually super, super pleasant. Um, because the body just goes, oh, thank God, you're not breathing deep anymore. In fact, you know what, we're going to switch you straight into your parasympathetic for a while. You're going to enjoy that. When I was talking about um, doing the class where we measured cardiovagal tone, the points of the highest parasympathetic activity were when we were at the very beginning of a breath hold. So the body almost just goes, oh, thank God, you're not doing that anymore. Here we go, let's relax. And you just you swing massively the other way like a pendulum. Um, uh, but uh, but then eventually the body starts to run really low on oxygen and it starts to release the stress hormones again and starts to wake you up and go, please, please breathe. So you're almost doing this interval training between putting your body into stress and putting your body into relaxation and then stress and then relaxation. But all the time, you're in control and you're doing it. And that's probably the biggest um, thing that I see with with people who come to my classes a lot and my clients is that they completely recondition their relationship to stress. It's that whole cycle thing that I was talking about before, the thinking and feeling and feeling and thinking that you're you're practicing being in stress with this breath, but you're in control and you know how to do it. And and you're going, I'm fine, I'm okay. And that starts to get linked. So that when something happens in life and your unconscious thought then goes, oh, this is something that stresses me out, boom, let's release some stress hormones, let's let's change the body, our physiology to get ready for action. And then the mind picks that up, you then just go, but I know how to deal with this. It's all good. I've got this. I do this all the time. And then you break the cycle.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Richie: And so I I say people who who do this work, they become unshakable. Or more unshakable. Um.
Dr Rupy: There's quite a few parallels you can actually uh, make with that and general cardiovascular exercise. The more exercise you do, the more resilient your body becomes. And and no doubt, you know, exercise itself, if you were to measure markers of inflammation in the blood after doing an intense exercise, it would be up because it's a pro-inflammatory activity. But over time, the benefits of exercise are thus because uh, you become essentially used to those um, uh, those challenges and your body responds adaptively. It's almost like this plant hormetic effect. Um, which I I think is very interesting from a breath point of view.
Richie: One thing I have to mention as well because you mentioned the pool, um, which is super important because I think people are starting to put make links of like, you can hold your breath for a long time, pool. Oh, maybe. Yeah, like maybe maybe so all I need to do is do some of this like Wim Hof method or this deep breathing and then I can hold my breath for a really long time. So next time I uh, I go snorkelling, I'm going to be like a a merman or a mermaid. Um, it's really important that you don't do this type of breathing when you go swimming. Uh, I do free diving, um, and they hate is not the right word, but they are they're very cautious about people who know Wim Hof method. Because um, maybe without going into it too much, it can cause this thing called shallow water blackouts. Uh, so maybe Google that if that's of interest to you, but it's all to do with the levels of carbon dioxide and oxygen in your blood and how that changes when you're doing activity. Yeah, especially after hyperventilation. So the essential.
Dr Rupy: The the water is a completely different physiological environment to how we are in our normal atmosphere. So that's that's a very important message.
Richie: Yeah, so just make sure that you're not doing this and then thinking you can hold your breath for, you know, 10 minutes. Although, you know, if you train yourself even without doing that deep breathing work, um, you can hold your breath for a really long time. It's part of the free diving training that you do. There's techniques to be able to learn to build up carbon dioxide resistance. So I think like my longest breath hold is something like 4 minutes 22 seconds. And I didn't I didn't used to be able to do that. Yeah, you know, so you but you can train it up. You know, Stig Severinsen is a is a very famous free diver and he's all about breathwork now and he's he's got his own like online course and uh, yeah, he has a lot of really good techniques as well for people who are interested.
Dr Rupy: Well, let's try a little uh, breath technique, shall we?
Richie: Yeah, okay. Well, what's the time? It's uh, it's kind of approaching midday. So let's do something to create energy then, uh, rather than try and wind us down because we don't need to wind down right now. Um, so this is something that you guys can try. Uh, it comes from a Sufi tradition originally. Um, I've changed it a little bit and made it kind of the way that I like it. I I now call it the Energizer Bunny. Um, and it's really simple and within, you know, just a minute or 90 seconds of doing this, you're going to feel a profound difference in your energy levels. Um, so doing this, if you're doing this at home, um, please just be in a a safe place, seated or lying down. Um, you can do it standing as well, actually, it's not a big deal. But just just be in a place where you can just concentrate on this and not be disturbed. And uh, so we're going to be creating some energy. It's very, very simple. It's three inhales through the nose followed by a relaxed sigh out through the mouth. Um, and I call it the Energizer Bunny because when people do it, they kind of like, you know, they they crinkle up their nose as they're trying to inhale fast enough because the pace of this breathing is actually quite fast and it's quite um, yeah, it's quite intense. And you're going to keep it up for, yeah, between 60 and 90 seconds to you'll feel the effect, but if you can do it for longer if you need more energy. So it's super, super simple. So I'll demonstrate. Uh, the important thing is that as you inhale, you're not exhaling out. So in between the three inhales, you're not breathing out in between each one. So you're progressively filling up your lungs more and more like a ladder kind of function. Um, so I'll demonstrate very, very quickly and this gives you an idea of the pace that we're talking about. So, three inhales through the nose followed by a relaxed sigh out through the mouth. So it goes like this. So, it's quite fast. Yeah. And keeping that going for like 60 seconds, 90 seconds.
Dr Rupy: I'm actually going to try. Let's do it for 60 seconds.
Richie: You want to do it for 60 seconds? All right, me and producer can time. Yeah. Um, okay, great. So, so if you exhale out, and let's go. So, now keep going. So as you by the time you get to your third breath, you want to feel like you're pretty full. So you're taking like really nice big breaths in. Yeah. Nice. I can see producer's going at it as well. So as you're doing this breath, you might start to feel a little bit lightheaded. You might start to feel a little bit dizzy. That's okay, guys. That's totally fine. It's totally safe. You can breathe this way for hours with absolutely no detrimental effect. Um, you're just doing something new, creating different changes uh, in your physiology and with new changes comes new experiences and new feelings and new sensations. So just keep going if you can. If you uh, feel like you're um, it's feeling like a quite intense, can you just relax into that intensity? Can you just kind of ah, into it? I think that was one minute. How do you feel, man?
Dr Rupy: Feel great.
Richie: And producer's nodding. Yeah, he liked that.
Dr Rupy: And uh, um, but one thing I have to say, doc, is uh, I think we need to do a session because I want to look at your breathing.
Richie: Definitely, yeah. I have a, I definitely, I know it. I definitely breathe high up into my chest. Uh, I when I'm commuting as well, uh, I'm definitely like highly strung. I don't like being in the train, for example. And that kind of breathing pattern, I've realized, kind of permeates the rest of my day. And I try and have like mindful moments. So when I'm in A&E, um, and I'm washing my hands, like between patients, I try and have a moment there where I'm breathing through my nose and out through my mouth. Um, but it'd be great to get like some steps for like, you know, breathing for sleep, breathing for commuting, breathing for motivation, like that kind of stuff. And I'm assuming you have this on your website or some of the workshops you do.
Richie: Yeah, in the workshops that I do, um, I talk a lot about, there are various workshops. So some of the workshops are more geared towards that from like a therapeutic perspective. So, you know, working through perhaps traumas, uh, having emotional uh, yeah, releases and that kind of thing. But then I do a lot of workshops which are more around the mechanics of breathing and how you can use it, fix your own breathing to start off with, and then how you can use it day-to-day to be able to um, you know, create real and shift the quality of your life in a really big way. Um, and uh, yeah, I I probably need to get better at doing some online content. My Instagram, I do put quite a bit of stuff on there. Um, I think the biggest, most useful resource is something that unfortunately isn't out yet. So I am writing a book. This is this is the thing that is like is uh, my big focus right now is I'm taking all my learnings over the last, you know, few years and putting it together into something that is really useful for everybody. So it's going to have a way to be able to assess your breathing, give you plans based off your assessment on how to fix it, um, and then a host of different breathing techniques, um, for all different scenarios. So like you just said, breathing for stress, breathing for anxiety, breathing to sleep, breathing to relax, um, breathing for motivation is a good one, breathing for addictions. I've had people who quit smoking just through breathwork. Um, uh, breathing for creativity, um, breathing for pain relief.
Dr Rupy: I can so see this being a really important resource for a lot of people. And you can pre-order now, right?
Richie: You can pre-order now. It's on Amazon. March 2020.
Dr Rupy: What's it called?
Richie: It's called Exhale: The Science and Art of Breathwork.
Dr Rupy: The Science and Art of Breathwork. I love it.
Richie: And um, the uh, yeah, and then there's also a lot of medical styles of breathing as well. So breathing for uh, high and low blood pressure, breathing for autoimmune diseases, just like my dad, uh, breathing for asthma, uh, breathing for digestive issues, breathing for things like fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, ME, um, and a whole host of more. Yeah, there are lots of different things that you can do, um, just using your nose and your mouth. And it works really well.
Dr Rupy: I can't wait for my personal breath session. And I'll definitely be going to one of your workshops soon, buddy. But thank you so much for coming, mate. This has been brilliant. And I'll put all the links to your socials on the um, uh, on the show notes and stuff. Um, but mate, pleasure having you here.
Richie: Thank you so much. It's been it's amazing. I love your work. I love everything you do and I can't wait to show you some breathing. And uh, to breathe you. I was trying to get this terminology out there.
