Raphael Rowe: It was torture for my for my family, but they didn't know, if I'm honest, whether I was guilty or not guilty. But the evidence, the evidence showed I wasn't guilty. Anybody who was listening to that, but the jury convicted us. And so I was then destined to spend my entire life in prison for crimes that that I didn't commit. And that's what happened to me.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: We are taking a step away from the usual conversation and instead you're going to hear a story. A story about a young man called Raphael Rowe and his career that was born as a result of spending 12 years in a British prison for crimes that he did not commit. This story will be triggering for a lot of people and for a lot of reasons. Despite a history of criminality, theft and violence, Raphael found himself a victim of institutional racism that led to his wrongful sentencing and ultimate incarceration. This story has somewhat of a positive outcome. However, it pains me to think of how many people are in the same situation as him with no means of escape. You may recognise Raphael Rowe from his many TV programmes that he's done since his release. He's filmed the highly popular Netflix series Inside the World's Toughest Prisons, where he visits security prisons, high security prisons around the world, including the DRC, Papua New Guinea, Colombia, Brazil, Ukraine, Belize, Romania, just to name a few. And inside, he films with some of the world's most dangerous prisoners, guards, prisoners’ families and politicians and talks to them about crime and punishment. I honestly tip my hat to him for going back into prisons having had his experience that he eloquently describes in brutal detail in his book Notorious, which I highly recommend. And today, I try and dive into the topic of why people commit crimes, the inequalities that may drive criminality and racism at the highest level to shed light on how far we need to go to tackle injustices today. And my overarching feeling after reading Raphael's book and listening to his own podcast, Second Chance, which is fantastic, is honestly one of sincere gratitude for the freedoms that we take for granted every day. And I really hope you feel the same after reading his tragic story or listening to this podcast, pandemic or no pandemic. Raphael is an advocate for equality, justice, social reform and prison reform. And I really hope you enjoy listening to his story and I hope you're inspired by it as well.
Dr Rupy: So I started mine a few years ago and we started off by just doing a simple chat in front of each other, mics and everything. And then we moved into the studio where I cooked for guests as we chatted. So my question to you would always be in anticipation of of that, you know, what what do you want me to cook?
Raphael Rowe: I I I'd say surprise me. I I'd say surprise me. When when the the last thing I cooked from your recipe book was the, is it the butternut chicken curry, I think it was. You you said it was your favourite, so I thought I'd give it give it a go actually. It was between that and the coconut. I I do love a curry. So I I was kind of torn between the the two and then I toyed with the idea of using chickpeas rather than meat, etc. So I'd say surprise me. Surprise me with something you think I'd like and then I'll tell you whether I would or wouldn't.
Dr Rupy: Okay, cool, cool. I mean, I I obviously reading your book and a little bit about how you grew up and stuff, I'd have to sort of make sure that it was nostalgic, should I say, to the the location in London.
Raphael Rowe: It'd be quite a challenge actually because no one can cook like your mum or dad, right? So if you if you tried, tried anything that was on the Caribbean or the traditional English or a merge between the two, which is what I was brought up on, it it can be quite challenging to cook. I I remember as a kid, corned beef rice was one of my favourites. It was such a simple dish, you know, a tin of corned beef, white rice, but it was the way my mum cooked it. I don't know how she transferred that processed bit of tinned corned beef into a pan, turned it into something that once you put it on plain white rice, it was so tasty. I think it was probably the salt.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Probably. There's always like something about the maternal touch to food that just elevates it. I don't know whether it's because as kids you have like a heightened taste response. I'm not too sure what it is, but there is literally nothing that can touch your mum's cooking.
Raphael Rowe: I think it's because all you really know, isn't it? I mean, they they almost shape your palate, don't they? You know, you're you're not used to any taste until you've tasted the food of your parents. And I suppose when I was growing up, you know, there wasn't, I mean, there were fast food, but I we weren't a family that went to restaurants. So I'd never as a kid been to a restaurant with my parents and sat down and tasted other people's food. There might be other relatives’ food that I tasted, but it was all very homely. You know, there was no outside. Occasionally my dad would, as you probably read in my book, rock up from a night of drinking with a kebab or something. And that was probably the extent of my kind of eating out, but that was still at home. So it was restricted. But then, you know, there wasn't anywhere near the the the amount of choices that that you have today, the sorts of restaurants and and different dishes that turn up in takeaways, etc. Or if there was, I wasn't I wasn't aware of it because we just didn't eat that way.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, totally. I I I do want to touch on your on your childhood actually. I mean, you mentioned it there like in in your book, which I have to say, I was absolutely gripped by, literally from page to page. I've I've I purposely haven't read the last 50 pages just when you leave prison. I think most people will recognise you from your series of Netflix documentaries. They will know that you spent time in prison, wrongly accused of a crime you didn't commit. But your your book and how you open up throughout your childhood is just it's so revealing. It's it's just very brutally honest about everything. I I wonder if we could we could start perhaps with with your childhood and and take it from there.
Raphael Rowe: I I I mean, I've over the years been asked many times to write a book or to to tell my story, which I've done, but it's generally been the story of of, you know, being wrongfully imprisoned, coming out of prison and leading a successful life as a journalist. And I've always felt that my childhood is my parents' childhood. It's my my siblings, my sister's childhood. It's my other relatives’ childhood. It's not just mine because when you talk about yourself as a child, you have to talk about the people that brought you up, i.e. my mum and dad or my aunts and the people that I grew up with, i.e. my sisters. And as a very private person, I've never been inclined to to tell my childhood story in the way that I have in my book because I didn't want to have to involve other people in my story. When I'm telling my own story, it's fine. When I have to include what other people were thinking or doing at the time, being the sort of person I am, I like to to make sure that they're happy with it or or that they're willing to. But it's also, and I'm just talking about the protective side of why I've never really and why I don't often talk about this is because of the line of work that I I I do as a journalist and have done, whether as an undercover journalist or somebody that goes inside the world's toughest prisons like in my Netflix series. I am exposing myself and anybody in my immediate environment, i.e. my family, to the dangers that I'm putting myself in. For example, if if I go into a prison and somebody wants me to bring something in, I can say no. If that person then tells me that they're aware I have a sister who lives at such and such address and that they could get somebody to go to a house, it puts me in a very tricky situation as it would my colleagues that I'm working with. So hence the reason I've been very, very protective. But in answer to your question, yeah, I grew up in Southeast London. I come from a mixed race family. My dad's Jamaican, my mum is English. You know, she was born and bred in in Shepherd's Bush and when my dad came to the United Kingdom from Jamaica on Windrush, you know, he's one of those generations, he settled with my mum soon after in in and around the Ladbroke Grove area and everything that comes with that scene back in the the 60s. And and I grew up on a council estate, various council estates and and you know, what comes with that back in the 70s and early 80s is the kind of cultural differences that you get from immigrants, migrants, low-income families and the challenges that that they face. Now, that can be anything from employment to criminality, domestic violence or community cohesion. You know, you can get quite a lot in tight-knit council estates, especially the ones that I grew up in, which kind of were boxed in, blocks of flats. That's what I'm talking about. They still exist today and many people are growing up. I think the culture's shifted and I think it's very different. You know, I had a a challenging childhood, not not from a an abusive way of life, but simply because we were typically working class, didn't have much money, couldn't afford the luxuries. I mentioned corned beef and rice was, you know, part of my staple diet. You know, there was no steak and chips and stuff that I eat today. And we did what we we we did. So yeah, from a very young age, my life was challenging, but I'm never going to complain about that because I was far better off than some of those who suffer more physical abuse than I did. I got beat as a child, who didn't, if you did something wrong. It it's the extent and what you had and what you didn't have. So yeah, my my childhood was as I reflect on it, as I got older into my teenage years and I became more independent of my, you know, father's rule or my mother's control, I became far more rudy, if you like, and and criminally minded, which which was a a shift from from the culture that I grew up in, i.e. my household because nobody in my family were criminally minded.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, because it strikes me that in in the book, your your father sounds very strict. He's very authoritarian, you know, the second you got into trouble with the law the first time, you knew about it. You know, there was no second chances in that in that respect. You were told straight away, this is wrong. So what I'm trying to get in across in my mind is why that aspect of criminality or or the the sort of petty thievery that you you got involved in early on, where was that allowed to evolve and and how did that develop?
Raphael Rowe: The simple answer and the honest answer is I wanted what I couldn't afford to buy. I wanted what my parents couldn't afford to give me. And that could be something as simple as a bar of chocolate. Now, in 2021, that might sound quite desperate. But in, you know, the the early 70s and 80s when I was growing up, you know, you didn't have the kind of exposure to the things you have today or or or or the world that I live in. So it's as simple as that. So when I wanted something that my parents couldn't afford to give me, and it's not just a a financial thing or a monetary thing, but it was it was a risk that I was prepared to take. And that's where it started with me, very simple, coming home from school, as brutal as that. And and I wanted a bar of chocolate. And so I'd go into a shop and I'd pinch a bar of chocolate. And I didn't really think there was, I knew it was wrong, but I didn't think there was anything wrong because there were lots of bars of chocolates and they weren't going to just miss one. I didn't quite think like that. It was more from a selfish point of view, you know, if they're if I want a bar of chocolate, I'm going to take a bar of chocolate. I got away with it, so I then took another bar of chocolate or or or that progressed into me nicking something else. And I'd have to hide it when I I got home. There was no thrill to it, although there probably was to some extent, but it wasn't driven by by that thrill. So and I had to hide this from everybody around me because they were not that way inclined. You know, until my dad had an accident, he was a hard-working immigrant in this country, you know, a labourer who kind of worked in the construction industry or or building the trains that we now enjoy moving up and down the country. So that's that's kind of my dad's background. And he would never approve of of of any of that. And when he found out that I did things like that, he would often give me a good beating. But that didn't deter me. It just meant I had to be clever and smarter the next time so I didn't get caught. I didn't quite think of it like that because you know, my mind wasn't in that, it was an opportunity and an opportunist moment when I when I stole things when I was younger anyway, before I started breaking into factories or people's houses or cars, which was the the progression. And Rupy, you know, it it it is as I say, it was purely financial. I wanted something I didn't and couldn't afford to have and I didn't want to accept that I couldn't have it, these very simple luxuries, and so I took it.
Dr Rupy: And do you think there's there's a couple of instances at the start of the book that I picked up on immediately because I think in today's society, they would be absolutely abhorrent, but they clearly exist in more subtle ways, but certainly when you were at school, there would have been a lot more obvious. But the racism that you endured at school as part of the educational system, do you think that demeaningness, that the the belittling at school in both the the subtle and the more obvious ways may have had an impact on you turning towards criminality or widening the gap between what things that you perceived as you being able to to have and and achieve versus what you were actually able to attain?
Raphael Rowe: I think most definitely. I think when I was growing up, there was certain, didn't know this at the time, but on reflection and as an adult and as a wiser person, I can understand this better. I think, you know, there were programs on television, there were speeches by politicians that endorsed racism or the language. You know, when I was growing up, using the term Negro to explain an ethnic person was acceptable on the BBC news. You know, and these Negroes are are are coming into our country. And this is said in the most politest way by BBC journalists. It was not considered inappropriate or wrong. So referring to black men or women or or people from ethnic backgrounds with brown skin as Negroes was acceptable and the sort of language that I would hear from teachers in my school because it's what was on the comedies, you know, the black and white minstrels and things like that. And so it was normalised, yet we, um, young black men, I was mixed race, but I was pushed towards a particular um, culture, if you like, or group of individuals who were also being marginalised because of the colour of their skin, because of their race or their ethnicity, or because they didn't fit in. Now, that wasn't a perception, that was a reality. You you you know, um, and it wasn't necessarily coming from other children, although it was, it wasn't as as overt as it was coming from those who were supposed to be educating you. And so it was quite easy that that they kind of pushed my kind, if you like, kids that had colour in their skin or or were immigrants of of another kind, um, and marginalised us, which meant that we couldn't rely on them, we couldn't depend on them, we couldn't get anything from them. We weren't being taught in the same way because we were seen as different and we were treated differently. Um, and so that didn't necessarily drive my criminality or the things that I did that that were wrong, but it did put me at a disadvantage to other kids who were not being marginalised in that way. And I, you know, I don't hesitate to say young white boys and girls who could ask for things and get things from people who were prepared to give it to them, unlike me and and the group of friends that I grew up in. And so we marginalised lot started to do things to get it for ourselves, which was commit crime, commit acts of violence because we were we were pushed into that corner. You can call it an excuse, it's an excuse. You can call it a fact, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what you call it. It was the reality, it was the reality of my life growing up in, you know, Southeast London during the the late 70s and and early 80s. And in the same way that that we look at things like Black Lives Matter today and you have people protesting. I mean, that was happening back in in my day, but it wasn't as as as obvious because there wasn't as much outrage then as there would be now when a BBC news reporter calls a black person a Negro on a news bulletin. You just couldn't see it happening today, but it was happening normally back in the the late 70s and and early 80s. And I think people just need to understand that context of the environment I was growing up in.
Dr Rupy: Do you think given the differences between today and when you were a child at school, there is a lot to be hopeful for with the new, it's not a new movement, it's a continuation of a movement that started long ago. Um, and and one of the facets that that are main difference is that it's not just the marginalised community, communities as part of the movement, it's also a wider population, a wider recognition from other communities that this is institutional and this is wrong.
Raphael Rowe: I think there has been and will always be progress as time moves on because there has to be. And you know, from when I was a kid to what I witness now as an adult, as a parent, things have moved on, people have changed. Um, you know, there's this whole debate at the moment about structural racism or institutional racism. Um, you know, I'm I'm an advocate that the evidence speaks for itself. Now, does that evidence show that institutional or structural racism still exists or does that evidence dictate that individuals are being treated in a racist way? You know, and I use footballers as an example, you know, there is this clear example of black football players or players from generally black backgrounds, but ethnic backgrounds are being targeted by particular fans. Um, is that the fan's problem or is it because the football associations are not addressing the problem? But how do they address the problem? How do you take out individuals because of their racist views? So it's very difficult to pinpoint. Um, but I do believe that over time things change, we progress as a society, as communities, you know, governments, policies, procedures, you know, different acts, whether it's the race discrimination act or the equality act of 2010, which is what we're we're kind of protected by today, you know, the nine protected characteristics, whether it's race, religion, um, you know, sex, etc. Um, so there are what I think didn't exist, um, avenues that people can take their grievances to to try and and bring about change and it can have wide wide implications for lots of different people. And and we've seen that, I think, with people being discriminated in in in the workplace, whether it's working for Uber or or some other kind of entity that monopolises, um, you know, people's labour in the same way that, you know, people monopolise people's skin colour or ethnicity. So, um, you know, I do believe that that there is still a lot to be done, but I think if we spend too much time thinking about what should be done rather than actually doing it, nothing actually ever changes.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And and talking about doing it, I mean, you you do a lot of work um within marginalised communities. And I don't want to paint this as a an only a black problem. It's actually a problem with all people from disadvantaged backgrounds, regardless of race, ethnicity, colour, whatever you want to use as a defining characteristic. How do we get, and this is obviously a massive question and I I don't suppose that we're going to answer this on the podcast, but how do we stop the spiral of criminality that exists within poor communities from that example that you just described there, from from stealing a a chocolate bar to then stealing more valuable pieces of jewellery to to getting into the the spiral of criminality that is all consuming and something that you experienced prior to the false accusations that led you to go to prison.
Raphael Rowe: I think you're absolutely right. There's no magic bullet and there's no one answer fits all. But if you look at individual cases and their similarities between individual cases, it it comes down to the the the culture that that people are being brought up in. So if you want to stop, take my own example, if you wanted to stop someone like me popping into a shop and stealing a bar of chocolate on my way home from school because my parents couldn't afford to buy it, you've got to look at the underlining problem. Why couldn't my parents afford to buy me a chocolate in the same way his parent could or her parent could? What what the what have they got that we don't have? And so it's the differences, I think. And that comes down to employment, it comes down to financial means. So I I just think it's easier to go into areas, disadvantaged or or or deprived areas and tackle the underlining problems. And it could be something as simple as employment. By employing people, giving people an opportunity, it means they can afford to do the things that they weren't able to do before, which is provide for their families or themselves or to improve their communities so people don't have to do the things that they are exposed to. It's a challenge and I think it's a challenge that can only be um, changed if resources are put in. And I think we often talk about putting millions or billions of pounds into tackling A, B and C, but what I find in my day-to-day work in this space is that a lot of those resources are spent on talking about what should be done rather than investing that money in actually doing it. Um, I think that's where where there is a gap.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. And I I know when you wrote the book and you're describing in the book your your early experiences as a young man, you you're talking about it through the benefit of hindsight. So it's it's always harder to sort of understand your true emotions in that moment. But what what do you what do you think kept you in that in that mindset of criminality? Because, you know, you had both parents, you had you had siblings, still do. Um, you had a structure to fall back on, but yet you chose to go down the other route. What what do you think kept you down that side rather than perhaps going down the straight and narrow?
Raphael Rowe: I think it was the rewards. It's always the reward, isn't it? It's like the Pavlov dog, you know, it's the end result. When I took something and I now owned it, I had something I I didn't have before and there was a a sense of satisfaction that I now had what I didn't have before. I couldn't afford to buy it. Um, but it was also a status thing. You you you you know, when when you are uh associating with lots of people who do a similar thing, there is a kudos amongst that group of individuals and your your positioning in in that um hierarchy, if you like, of of individuals who think like you and behave like you. Um, and I think there is a lack of willpower, but most importantly, I think it it in my time, and I also think that's more evident today, is there were no mentors. There was nobody, you know, there was nobody achieving anything in my community when I was a kid that I could aspire to. I mean, I'd look on the television and watch footballers and I'd want to be, but there weren't many that looked like me or or there were no stories about how they got to where they got to in the way that that there is today, I think. So there is much more of that mentoring. But there was no mentoring, there was no guardian angel trying to steer people away from criminality. Um, and the only people that did exist, I mean, there were, I suppose, community workers and stuff, but I think they were driven by their own self-purpose rather than trying to help individuals because times were hard for for for lots of people. Um, so I think a lack a lack of mentoring or somebody to sort of say to me and people like me, and and I think the same is is today that that is wrong and you can achieve the same if you did A, B and C and then show you how to achieve A, B and C in the right way rather than the wrong way because there was no one in my life or or in my existence that did show me the right way in ABC. Now, you may think today that that's pretty ignorant or pretty, you know, a lack of understanding, but that was the reality. You you you know, you can't measure what we see and hear today with what I saw and heard as a teenager growing up in a in a city council estate. You you you know, you weren't exposed in the same way to to the world that we are today via television. You know, we only had the BBC and and ITV, you know, there was no social media, there's no mobile phones. So it was a different culture, a different society and people need to appreciate that that was one of the challenges. Now, that's not the answer because there were millions like me who didn't end up doing what I did, who did go on the straight and narrow or or didn't get distracted on their way home from school to pop into the shop and nick a bar of chocolate. Um, what made them different from me, I can't I can't say, but I just know in my own life, if there was somebody who was stood outside that shop and said, not today, Raphael, you you you know, go home, tomorrow, go back to school and and focus on on, you know, learning, you'll be able to walk in this shop as a teenager and buy 10 of those bars of chocolate. There just wasn't anybody doing that for me or for many of the kids that I was around. That was evident.
Dr Rupy: I I want to get an an a perspective of your lifestyle just before you were wrongly accused. Um, because it it's it's brutally violent for for someone reading. You know, you you were stabbed, you got into fights, your lifestyle involved obviously hanging out with the wrong types of people, um getting into conflicts. It sounds like you were on edge pretty much the whole time. I mean, it doesn't sound like a lifestyle that was particularly rewarding or or something that most people would want to choose. I wonder if you can give us a little bit of an insight into how you were.
Raphael Rowe: It was on edge and it it was a dangerous lifestyle, but it was the only lifestyle that I knew. It was everybody around me, um, behaved, thought, um, and did things in in the same way. Now, what's condensed in a book over a a few pages is actually spread out in in in life. So, the reality is, you you you know, I was involved in stabbing a a an enemy, is what we would call it back then. Um, there was no enjoyment in doing something like that. It was a protective action. I was the victim of of a stabbing, which was violent. Um, it was just the world, it's it's when I reflect on it now, it was just the world that I was growing up in. It was just the norm. It was, you know, you hear kids talking about it today, gang culture, this gang culture. I I'd never considered myself to be involved in the gang culture. I mean, that's an easy label to group individuals together and and castrate them for for their behaviour. Um, but it it it wasn't an extension of of what I said was happening to me as as as a younger person and that was that my circumstances meant that I was ingrained in that culture. I was um hanging out with guys that were also ingrained in that culture and there was nobody around us, young or old, who were trying to steer us away. So it's all we knew. I mean, my parents and my friends' parents knew it was wrong, but they couldn't articulate to us in the way that parents, I think, do today because they are able to to show more and expose their kids to more of of the consequences of what might happen. And so everything sort of spiralled in the way that it did simply because I knew no different. You you know, somebody hit me, I'd hit them back. Um, if I wanted something, I'd nick it. Um, but it was driven purely by what drove me into that shop to nick that bar of chocolate. And I keep repeating that because that was innocent. That was really a young kid who wanted something his parents couldn't afford and you've got to imagine it made me sad as a kid that other kids could have it and I couldn't. It made me weepy inside. It made me feel that that my parents weren't doing the best that they could for me because they weren't giving me what other kids wanted. You you know, so without anybody telling me that actually my parents couldn't afford to do it or etc, etc. So as a a little kid who was sad, who wanted something, who couldn't have things, you know, and and I can extend that to the the latest trainers or or or the later fashion wasn't quite the same, but you know, the the things that some parents could afford to give their kids that my parents couldn't afford to give me, but I was being exposed to and told that that was the latest thing to have. Um, and that just spiralled as I got older. Only as I got older, I could go and take it for myself or or or rob a factory or a house, burgle somebody's house, taking their their things to sell to get the money to buy the things that I wanted. I know that's wrong now. When I was younger, I didn't even think about the consequences of my actions because I was self-centered and just looking out for myself.
Dr Rupy: If we fast forward to today, there's two ways I think in which you can look at this, right? So you mentioned back then, you only had the BBC. You you had very limited points or perspectives into other ways of living and they certainly weren't reflective of you. Today, we have the world on our phone and most people have got a digital device where they have access to positive content, um, ways to make money, um, ways to educate themselves. On the other hand, to use the analogy of the chocolate bar, and I think it's a very important analogy to to keep sight of, you're also exposed to the increasing wealth divide between the haves and have nots. So you know there are people who perhaps because of their privileged background, perhaps because of the colour of their skin, perhaps because of, you know, the cards that were dealt with them, they have a much easier ride into education, employment, all the opportunities available to them. And perhaps that is a driving force behind a negative self-perception that leads them towards criminality or a life that is less fair on themselves, although they don't know at that point. Do you think the youth of today are in a more privileged position or a more disadvantaged position considering those two factors? And I'm sure there are other uh indicators and and other things that affect that as well.
Raphael Rowe: I think I'd I'd verge on the more privileged position because there is much, much more choice and opportunity. And I think when you bring those two things together, it it does allow and social media is one of those things, you know, you can see it happening in different ways, shapes and forms, you know, YouTubers, you know, influencers, they've done nothing but but shape a life and monetise their life by doing the things that they do. And and I know that's a kind of typical kind of example, but but I do believe that people are more privileged, not disadvantaged. I mean, there is, of course, disadvantages, but I think with the opportunities that are out there today and with the choices that people can can make, you know, when you when I was growing up, you saw one picture and it was always only one side of the picture. Today, you can flip over and look at the other side of the picture. And that's why I think when people are making the wrong decisions or making the mistakes today, it's because they made a choice rather than being defined by only one avenue. Um, and that's what I'm trying to stress that the avenue I took, there was an alternative avenue, but it was never it was never my choice to to find it. I could never find it because it wasn't exposed to me. And I think today, the youth or people that are going down the wrong path choose to go down that wrong path sometimes, not always, because there are plenty in the same position that I was in as a kid. But I do think that the world has opened in in a dramatic way, you know, globalization, etc, etc. So I do think that that that that people have much more choice and um if they make the right choice, they can avoid the pitfalls and the consequences like what I did. Um, and that's not for everyone. I know it's not for everyone and I know people are still restrained. Um, but I think, you know, education is improving. I I I think, you know, opportunities for for work, for different ethnic groups or just individuals is is wider than it ever has been be before. Um, yeah, there are distinctions between privately educated and, you know, state educated. Um, but I do think, you know, the teachers have changed. You know, I don't think that, you know, the mix in schools is much wider than when I was growing up. So I think all those things do make a difference and and can help steer young people away from a life of crime.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I I agree. I think taking into context the perspective of how much change there has been over the last few decades, we've definitely come leaps and bounds, although we have still miles and miles ahead of us to go. And it's certainly not the time to pat ourselves on the back and, you know, determine that there is no such thing as institutional racism in the UK. However, taking into context your perspective and your life story, I think definitely there are a lot more choices comparatively, although we still have barriers. And and talking about choices, I want to get to the the part of your life story where you had literally no choice and you were, I mean, quite literally dragged out of your your house, um, in that dramatic scene. I wonder if you can take us back there to to what happened on that on that fateful day in December.
Raphael Rowe: I was 20 years old and I was living that life on the fringes of criminality. I was involved in criminality, I was mixing with the wrong people, committing crime, smoking weed, having lots of girlfriends, enjoying life, doing what lots of people do at 20 years old without the criminality, maybe without smoking the weed, but just trying to enjoy that that part of my my life. And on one morning, I was arrested at gunpoint by the police. I was, you know, I'm going to fast forward all of this, but I was, you know, taken to a police station, um, which was not an unusual scene for me. You you you know, let's not try and pretend and I never tried to pretend that this was just completely blown out of the world. It wasn't, you know, I was not being arrested every day, but I had been in a police station before, I had been um questioned by the police before, I had been, you know, previous convictions before. But I'd never been, I'd never had a gun pointed at me. I'd never been arrested in the way that I'd been arrested on this occasion, you know, guns and helicopters and lots of sirens and lots of police officers. And then I was taken to a police station and interrogated about murder, robberies, crimes I knew I didn't commit, which in itself was a relief. Um, but these were serious offences. This was beyond anything that that that I was involved in, you know, and we talk about, you know, being stabbed and stabbing somebody, um, but you know, this was not frenzied attacks or, you know, vicious attacks in the sense that, you know, there was lots of blood. We're talking about, for me it was, but, you know, what I did was was quite, I poked a knife in somebody, but I didn't, you know, kind of stuff. And I'm not trying to trivialize it. I'm just sort of saying the reality of my world was very different from the reality of sitting in a police station and being accused of being involved in a murder and a series of robberies, which culminated in me being charged, spending, um, the next 15 months in a prison within a prison in Brixton, you know, confined to a cell for 23 hours a day as a 20-year-old, you know, I spent my 21st birthday inside Brixton's prison within a a prison as a as a category A prisoner, the highest category prisoner you can be in this country, um, confined in a cell, you know, 6x9, 23 hours a day, peeing and pooing in a piss pot or a chamber pot, a plastic chamber pot, which I would empty into a recess every day. That was the reality of my 20 and 21-year-old life. Um, and all this time, I was charged with crimes that I I didn't commit. And I was convicted of those crimes 18 months later, um, by a British court, despite the fact that that the victims of the crimes had already described the perpetrators to the police and to other witnesses, that the crimes that I was charged with, and I had two co-defendants were charged with, two black guys, um, were committed by two white men and a black man. So you had me, a mixed race man that people would often call black, and two black guys, um, in prison, charged with crimes that the victims had described were committed by two white men and and one black man. And so when we stood up in the court being accused of these crimes and the victims came into the courts and told the jury, told the court that one of the white men, for example, had blue eyes and fair hair, and you look over at the dock and you see three black men. At the time I had dreadlocks, one of my co-defendants had dreadlocks and the other guy was very dark skinned. So it was quite clear none of us fitted the description that the victims, and not just one, but a few victims at different crime scenes had described. So just imagine what it was like in that courtroom for my family, for me, for everybody that was trying to prove that we were innocent as opposed to the other side, which were trying to prove that we were guilty, which was basically the police and the prosecution who who had a a service to to to portray and and that was that we were three guilty black men and it didn't matter what the victims or anybody else said. And they won, they won that argument because society, and I keep repeating that I was growing up in, was adverse, it was racist and they could get away with this sort of stuff. And we're only talking 30 years ago, 35, 40 years ago. I mean, you think about what happened is happening right now in the George Floyd trial, you know, it's incredible that that there is an argument against the fact that that police officer whose knee was on that guy's neck didn't contribute to to his death. I mean, when we've all seen it, you know, with social media and you've got it all being video, it's being played out in front of our eyes. It's it's undeniable. But in my day, when you're standing there and you're being accused of crimes that you know you didn't commit, and then you get convicted and sentenced like I was to life imprisonment with a an additional 54 years that if you didn't at any point accept your guilt, you would die in prison. That's what was hanging over my head when I left the Old Bailey, the number one court here in the United Kingdom, convicted of a murder and a series of robberies that I didn't commit. Here I was being condemned to spend the rest of my life in in in prison. Um, you know, it was torture for my for my family, but they didn't know, if I'm honest, whether I was guilty or not guilty. But the evidence, the evidence showed I wasn't guilty. Anybody who was listening to that, but the jury convicted us. And so I was then destined to spend my entire life in prison for crimes that that I didn't commit. And that's what happened to me.
Dr Rupy: I mean, just hearing you say it makes me boil up and and angry at the system and the fact that it was so recent as well, just makes me feel very uncomfortable about the system in which we live in and I don't think most people would ever have an experience of that, let alone be, you know, privy to the overt racism that you experienced. I mean, how on earth did you deal with the mental anguish, the anger of that decision when you were confined to to prison across those 12 years that you you stayed in?
Raphael Rowe: You know, we we often use terms like hopelessness, you know, when you're hopeless and you really can't do anything to to to influence what happens next. And and throughout the 18 months to two years that I was going through this period of being accused of crimes that I didn't commit, going on trial, um, I was hopeless. I I couldn't influence anything. I did everything I possibly could in the prison cell that I was confined in, um, to to help me understand what what it was what what was happening to me, what was happening to my co-defendants, my family and and this particular crime, trying to understand all the the nuances, all the the nitty-gritty detail, um, and and although the picture was almost complete, there were always elements that were missing. And some of those elements were key to understanding how three black men could be convicted of a crime committed by two white men and and a black man. And there's no getting away with that. There's no misidentification. This is not an issue of an identity parade. We're not we're not dealing with scientific um experiments where, you know, somebody sees somebody fleeting and then they've got to decide whether that person in a lineup of eight people like what we see on television is the right person and can they point the finger and the crime is solved. That's not what we're dealing with here, Rupy. We're dealing with black and white. We're dealing with something as simple as the race, the colour of a person's skin. Now, I'm mixed race, so my skin's brown. My co-defendants are, as I've said before, black. So it wasn't just about coping with being wrongly convicted, it was coping with with what this was that the message that our case was sending out to people. I didn't know it at the time, but luckily for us, it triggered the consciousness of of people outside who were concerned that racism existed, that people were being victimised and discriminated against. And so and some of the media who played a significant role in my conviction, I believe, because, you know, all the sensational headlines that said the police had caught the men responsible for these crimes and and the the details about, for example, the victim's descriptions of the perpetrators that the police were looking for, all that disappeared once we were arrested. There was no longer the police are looking for two white men and a black man. I keep emphasizing the description because I want your audience and anybody that's listening to what I have to say or read my book to reinforce the point that how can three black men be convicted of two a crime committed by two white men and a black man? And it's kind of reinforcing that. So that's what I had to endure. When you ask the question, how do you cope with that? How do you deal with that when you're in a confines of a prison cell? So as well as the enormity of being wrongly convicted of murder, the worst crime imaginable and a series of robberies including an attempted murder, that was a burden, but the burden of being convicted under a racist system was also a weight around my neck. So I had different things to fight. And how do you fight that system when that system and the structure of that system, and here we talk about institutional racism, is is is founded on those elements of of a system that that is racist. And I'm talking about the criminal justice system. There were people in that system that were not, of course. So I then spent the next 12 years in prison for these crimes that I didn't commit. And in all that time, I did absolutely nothing but fight my wrongful conviction. And the way I fought my wrongful conviction was to read every document about my case I could get my hands on over and over and over again. I spent as much time as I possibly could trying to understand how the law worked so I could argue legally why my conviction was unsafe with my own defence team when they came to visit me because they have an approach and their approach is not always in my interest. It might be the right approach, but it's not in my interest. We don't have the same system that you see on television where the American investigator goes out and discovers the the the smoking gun that proves their client is innocent, etc, etc. That didn't exist. I didn't have access to the internet, it didn't exist. Mobile phones didn't exist when I went to prison. The tools that people have on the outside to fight wrongs didn't exist inside my prison cell. I had a typewriter. So the tick tick tick tick of a typewriter every time I had to put together a document would take weeks when I was trying to compile an argument that I would send to the media to protest my innocence or to a politician, you know, the tick tick tick of a typewriter is is the only weapon I had, but I used that weapon the best possible way I I I could and the pen and the paper. So every day of the 12 years that I was in prison, I tried to find gaps in the evidence. I tried to obtain documentation that would reinforce some of the points that I was trying to make about the other inconsistencies in my case. And I'll give you one other example. An alibi is key to whether a person has or hasn't or was or wasn't at the scene of a crime. I had a cast-iron alibi that proved I was not anywhere near the crime scene when the murder and the other offences were committed. It was questioned, it was undermined, the credibility of my alibi was challenged by the prosecution. And that didn't matter because there was factual and independent evidence from witnesses who had no vested interest in whether we were guilty or not guilty, whether it was black men or it was white men, who stated quite clearly that, for example, the car the robbers used to arrive at the scene of the first crime was there long before I left the company of people that I was in. And I know this is technical and a little bit more detail than is necessary, but my point is, I had an alibi, the descriptions didn't fit and yet I was still convicted. So when I was in that prison cell, Rupy, and I was trying to to prove my innocence, I just kept banging on about the same thing that the jury didn't believe. Why the jury didn't believe it is unimaginable, but they didn't and they convicted me. So for 12 years, I fought my conviction, I studied journalism so I could manipulate the media to write stories about the fact that I wasn't in prison or that I was in prison for crimes I didn't commit. I did everything I possibly could in those 12 years that I was in prison, apart from conform to to the regime of a prison system because I just could not and would not accept that I was a convicted murderer or or guilty prisoner.
Dr Rupy: And and without that conviction, you know, there's there's a reasonable argument that you you could still be there today. You know, there there is without that drive to study, to fight the system, to not accept. I mean, it's it's beyond belief that you weren't believed in the first place, but a lot of people wouldn't have had the vigour, the the fight with them to do that. And and I don't want to um gloss over the fact that you're in prison. You were moved to multiple prisons and the daily threat of harm was was there. It was it was constant throughout your experience. I mean, some of the stories you you've regaled in the in the book are just harrowing to hear about. But all that whilst you know that you're innocent and you're trying to prove innocent in a system that is geared against you because of institutional racism. I mean, it it it is so hard to to to even imagine that.
Raphael Rowe: It it it is and and to navigate, you know, the violence of prison and and there's a lot more that I could never even fit into the book in terms of the things I witnessed and and the experiences that that that I went through. And the book is 200 and something pages. We're talking about thousands of days that I spent in that space. You know, I went in at 20, I came out when I was 32. The whole of my 20s were spent in a confined space for a crime I didn't commit. And I was brutalized by the system for not conforming, you know, whether it was the prison guards or or in the early days, the prisoners. None of them accepted or wanted to believe that I was I was innocent. You know, me telling them that is the same thing they heard from many other people. Um, but what I didn't give up on was was the evidence. It wasn't about whether I was telling people I was guilty or not guilty, whether people people wanted to believe me or didn't want to believe me. All I was asking people to do, and when I say people, I mean lawyers, the courts, journalists and the general public, was to look at the evidence. And I did everything I possibly could to present that evidence. Um, and that was in between being physically beaten, being um held in isolation and segregation for fighting against my conviction, for almost starving myself to death by going on hunger strike in protest at the system letting me down again and again and again. Um, and it it you know, at the end of the day, the the system itself, and when I say system, I mean the criminal justice process, was forced, you know, they didn't do it willingly and they didn't do it easily. They were forced to to relist my case, to rehear my case by the overwhelming pressure that they were put under by my campaigners, by myself who spearheaded everything. And I say spearheaded everything, I mean, I was the one who was angry. I was the one who was suffering internally, mentally, physically, and I was able to turn all of those negatives into a force to fight what was happening to me because I wasn't prepared to accept it. And by me not being prepared to accept it, it motivated other people around me to get angry. And you said yourself, you know, we're talking 30 years on and I'm describing it and you say it makes you boil. Can you imagine what it was like when I was sitting across a visiting table from somebody who was willing to help me and I was doing my utmost to fire that person up to help me because they were free. And when they walked that way and I went back that way through the doors and into the confined space, I was shutting my cell and I had no access to the outside world. So I was desperately relying on that person who could walk out of the prison and go wherever it is they wanted to go to to to deliver my message. And even if it was at the next social gathering where they said, oh my God, I went to visit or have you heard about, another person now knows what I was going through and that that case they'd heard about or read about that person is still protesting two years, five years, eight years, 10 years later. They never accepted. So, you know, there were numerous different challenges. Um, and it wasn't until the last few years where the European courts ruled unanimously that the British court system had denied me the right to a fair trial. Hence they kind of embarrassed the British court to send my case back to the court of appeal for for reconsideration. It was only then when it did go back, you know, that's my short version of sort of saying we were successful.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. I I wanted to bring that in actually about your thoughts of Brexit and how much the European system actually helped your case and what safeguards and and assurances we have now that we've lost as a result of leaving. Um, but it you know, it it just sounds so convoluted and and complicated and you know, you go into a lot of detail as to how you were able to overturn the decision. But I wanted to talk because you have a you have a podcast, um, which is all about second chances and and all about other people's stories. But when you left prison, and this is the part of the story that I'm in the dark about, and all I know is is of your work and your TED talk and your Netflix series and stuff. What what was it like that that sense of freedom walking out and and and integrating back into the real world?
Raphael Rowe: Well, I'm sure as you can hear and your audience will probably hear in, there is still this this deep inner passion and anger inside me that that that that drove me through the years that I was in prison. I like to think and I often say that when I was released, when my conviction was overturned and my freedom was given back, I was able to sort of brush that that bitterness and that angriness of of a young Raphael away and that I could look forward to the future. And I was very fortunate that not long after I was released and because I had a big mouth, um, there was some interest from the media and I was able to stand and shout that I'd lost, you know, a great portion of my life, you know, in fact, you know, 20 to 32 in prison, it was so unfair and I'd never get those years back. Um, it caught the attention of a couple of people, um, and it was just very fortunate that not long after I got out of prison, I was offered an opportunity from of all people, the BBC, um, that that I took and it changed my life to what it is right now, right here, because I then embarked on a career as a as a journalist, not something I ever thought I would be. I did study a correspondence course while I was in prison. I never actually managed to finish it because I was moved from different prisons and the paperwork didn't often follow me. Um, but I was able to to land myself a job with with the BBC's most prestigious radio program, the Today program, you know, the mover and shakers listen to it if you like, the Queen, the Prime Minister, and and all of a sudden, less than a year after leaving prison, I was very fortunate that that I was upsetting or disrupting as you say, the traditional BBC journalist because not only was I an ex-criminal, if you like, which is what the Daily Mail did, you know, what is the BBC doing employing an ex-offender alongside a picture of their kind of hero, John Humphrys. So you had my face with dreadlocks, fresh out of prison, and and John Humphrys, an esteemed interrogator, um, and here we were working on the same program. So, you know, don't ever let anybody tell you that your ambitions should be restricted. Um, but it wasn't easy because I had no skills. I had the meticulous skills of being a a dogged investigator of my own case. I had the ability to not give up. And I was able to turn that into journalist skills, research, investigations. Um, and so yeah, I then spent the next eight years as a as a correspondent, if you like, or a reporter on on the BBC Radio 4 Today program. I was a special correspondent on the BBC 6 o'clock news. Never formally trained, learned everything that I did on the job, blagged a lot of it. Um, but the most terrifying thing was I couldn't even speak the Queen's English because that was one of the biggest criticisms at the time. Here I am reporting on particular stories for the Today program, getting a lot of criticism from the audience, asking how very dare the BBC employ someone who who can't even speak the Queen's English, which is what the BBC were trying to break, you know, Greg Dyke was the chairman at the time who called the BBC hideously white. Um, I was still very much in prison slang, you know, I was almost talking in the same way on the radio for today program as I did to a um a convicted prisoner in in a prison, you know, so it was very confusing not just for me, but particularly the the the audience. But I relished it, you know, I've been in a position where I was condemned to the rest of my life in prison. All of a sudden, I was jumping on airplanes, getting off of of flights in Afghanistan, you know, investigating things and doing things where danger just didn't didn't cross my mind. I was in some of the most precarious, dangerous positions, um, and didn't even realize it in in the early days of of my career because I was relishing my freedom. And that and that's the answer to your question. When I came out and I didn't know how to open a door, I didn't know how to make choices between Heinz baked beans and Happy Shopper and and what bread to to to use because in prison you're only given a staple diet and it's always consistently the same, but outside, I could look on shelves in supermarkets and and be confused by the amount of choice. Um, I'm still the same today actually. I am I I am a man or a woman's dream shopper because I love shopping. I love going places and taking my time and browsing and I I am an ideal shopper in in that sense. Um, and that's a a leftover condition from from my time in prison.
Dr Rupy: You know, it's it's strange because I think most people listening to this might think, why on earth would you put yourself in such dangerous positions when you've just been granted freedom? And and I guess, you know, it's like you said, you're you're relishing the opportunities to travel and and see what the world is and and and everything else. And and I wanted to ask you this a bit later, but I think now is the right time. With the pandemic and lockdown, I mean, how how have you faired? Is this been something that has brought back bad memories or is it is it something that you've sort of again, relished the the the chance to sort of experience and and and get through?
Raphael Rowe: I I wouldn't say that it's brought back bad memories and I wouldn't say that I I relish. What I would say is that my my experience of being confined in in a prison, my experience of having all my choices and decisions taken away from me and and everything that I I did other than breathe and think decided for me, it it it it didn't affect me in the way that it has the majority of the globe, if if you like, and people that have not been through either a similar experience or something that has made them appreciate and be grateful for what they have and what they they don't have, you you know, whether that is through their surviving a health condition or or or or whatever it is. And so I think when lockdown was first introduced, I was of the mindset that I've done this before. I know what it's like to be confined and and restricted. Um, you know, so I wasn't boastful about it. I wasn't pushing out my chest like I am now, but I was I was mindful of the fact that I could potentially cope with this better than those around me who might find it challenging. What I didn't bank on was how challenging mentally, psychologically it could be for people. Now, I saw that as an opportunity to say to people, think of other people now who are in that same position. And I'm not just talking about the 80,000 prisoners in this country. I'm talking about the the the the 200 million prisoners around the world. I'm talking about the the many other people who are confined to um an environment that deprives them of choice because of a dictator or or whatever. So I'm just saying to people, appreciate or maybe this will help you appreciate that what we have, whether it's a garden, whether it's a a front door that you can open and walk out, even though you're told you're not supposed to, people can still do that and go for a walk. There are lots of people that that can't. So here is an opportunity for us to come together and do something rather than complain. It's good to complain and people did, didn't they? They came out and they clapped their hands for the NHS and, you know, not long after people said, oh, not again, do we have to do that? We've been doing it for 12 months, people get tired of it. But some people don't have choices, you know, they have to do that for years and years and years. Um, not clapping their hands, but enduring challenges like not being able to make decisions and and choices through no fault of their own. And I'm not talking about people being wrongfully convicted in prison. I'm talking about, you know, social justice and and and the effects that that can have on people. So, you know, I wasn't threatened by the idea of of lockdown. I tried to take the opportunity, which is why I I did start the podcast, Second Chance, because it it gets people thinking. I thought it would get people thinking about a second chance in what they do or who they are, where they've been, or or what experiences they have had in in life. And and it was born out of the idea, Rupy, when when I was talking about a podcast and someone sort of said to me, um, you know, your second chance. And I kind of looked at them in that kind of way like, no, no, no. I I took my life back. I fought long and hard. I wasn't given a second chance. I fought long and hard for for my freedom to prove my innocence. Um, and yeah, you may equate that to, well, you've got a second chance because you're now out. I I hesitate to say that I have been given a second chance because I took all the chances I could while I was in prison to prove my innocence. I took the opportunities to embark on on a career as a journalist and have been very successful at at what I do. Um, but that's not me saying that um, I don't recognise the the physical, psychological um challenges that that people have experienced under under lockdown. And my message has always been, um, you know, do the best you can to overcome it, but also think about other people that are in slightly more tricky situations because I get lots of messages from people who sort of say, I'm never going to complain again because I've now read your story and I've been moaning about being locked down for three months. Wow, you're an inspiration, you're this, that and the other. So I know it works and and that's a great thing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was exactly the thoughts that I had as well. I mean, I was lucky in that I I had to go to work and most people think, well, you know, you're you're putting yourself in in danger or whatever, but in reality, it was just doing my job and I got the opportunity to socialize with my colleagues, you know, see people, have conversations and actually be allowed to leave my my front door. But um, certainly empathize even more so, I think, considering your story, um, and just the the injustice of it all. And I have to ask and this is sort of in the same line as why you would go undercover and put yourself in situations which could put you in harm. But going back into prisons, albeit for journalistic purposes, surely that that must have, that may have triggered you or that that must have been a big decision for you to make yourself.
Raphael Rowe: Oh, without without doubt. I mean, and I didn't I didn't um choose to do it lightly. And and there's no question, you know, in some of the prisons that I've been in for the Netflix series, there are so many similarities with the British criminal justice system, like in Mauritius, for example, you know, the structure of of the outside of those prisons, lots of barbed wire, lots of mesh fences and gates and stuff, did bring back memories. And because I immerse myself as a prisoner by wearing the prison garments, um, and walking around and doing things that prisoners do in the same way, you will notice anybody who's watched the show will or maybe they don't because they don't know me that well, but you will always see the drop of my head where I'm in the moment. It's not just for television, but I'm reflecting of what it used to be like for me when I was so sad as a wrongly convicted prisoner walking the the corridor or walking outside with a prison guard beside me, taking me to the next gate where I had no power to open and close that gate. I had to rely on him or her to put the key in, turn the gate, open the gate, me walk through, them shut the gate, and the next door and the next gate until I got to the table where I'd sit down with my mum and and have a visit where I'd tell her how this has happened or that has happened. Now, when I'm making the Netflix series, there are moments where I'm being filmed where I'm in that moment, I'm in that memory and it's really difficult for me. But it's also in in in a weird kind of way helpful because it means what I do next, whether it's meet a prisoner or a guard and I talk about what it is we're about to talk about, that I talk about it with the passion and the understanding that I have for what it was like when I was in prison, but what they are going through at that very moment because that's not going to change. That gate doesn't change. It always needs someone to open and close it. Now, whether it's the prisoner walking through or it's the guard walking through, they have thoughts and feelings and behaviours. If it's a guy that's going to be confined in prison for the rest of his life, I know what that's like, so I can I can talk to him and try and get the best I can out of him. Um, you know, the danger element of it is is is never to be underestimated and I'm always reminding the team that I work with and I work with various different teams and the majority, 80, 90% of them have never been inside prisons before, so they don't know what to expect. And I'm constantly reminding them that they must never become complacent because even in the the most um respected of prisons, if you like, it can turn on the flip of a coin, you know, a violent situation can occur and has occurred whilst I've been out there filming. Um, so they must never become complacent, they must never sort of let their guard down and not be vigilant and aware of their environment all the time. And that's not me trying to scare them, but I've lived it. I know what it's like. I know how quickly something can turn. I know how an individual, like a criminally minded individual can manipulate a vulnerable cameraman or or or or or or fixer um to make them feel sorry for them and before you know it, they're giving them a a packet of cigarettes, which is illegal and and that person could end up getting arrested. It's the little things that that can happen. So it's kind of reminding them of that. But the bigger picture, Rupy, is is simple and it's this. I want to change people's perceptions about prisons, about prisoners, about prison guards, about victims and about most importantly, what we as a society globally can do to improve the the conditions. I'm not all about rehabilitation because there are lots of places that I've been to where rehabilitation doesn't exist. You know, these people need food rather than rehabilitation because they're going to die of starvation inside a prison where there is very limited food. Um, you can't rehabilitate somebody if they're hungry because they care about the food before they are going to care about the rehabilitation program. So that's a no-brainer. And so my idea is to try and change people's perceptions about why giving somebody more food is important so that we can then address the issue of their offending, etc, etc. If somebody is taking drugs in prison like in Paraguay, for example, um, no rehabilitation is going on because all they care about is scoring their next line of drugs and there's no therapist in there trying to tackle the issue of drug dependency. So how do you change that situation? How can you get people to think about that rather than punishment? And that's all they should be getting is punishment. So, so that's why I take the risk. That's why I go back in because I believe that I am in that privileged position of understanding without judgment, um, and then sharing what what we discover when we go in. And I put myself at risk to do that because I've got over my own experience to the extent that I think I can use it for good. It was all bad in those 12 years, it was all suffering, but now I can put that suffering to good use and I think it's working.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I was going to end on what your mission is, but it sounds like you've articulated that super well in the last couple of minutes. And I just want to thank you, you know, because I think the easy route for you would have been anger and bitterness at the injustice. And obviously that is still in some degree in there. But the fact that you're using your position that you describe as privileged, which I think is all about perspective, the fact that you are using a successful jump into your journalistic career to shine a light on other people who might not have the same situation as you, but are still human beings. Uh, I I just think it's it's absolutely admirable and I just can't wait to see where you go next and what you do with your with your mission. Um, it's it's been wonderful chatting to you.
Raphael Rowe: Thank you for having me on.
