Dr Rupy: And I have an acronym. Every mistake is an AFOG. A, another. F, fricking. Because I don't know, because I don't know your audience well enough to know if anyone's going to take offence. O, opportunity. G, growth. Another fricking opportunity for growth. And boy, let me tell you, if there's one thing my students write back over and over, had an AFOG. They write to tell me about their AFOGs.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine, and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: Have you got an exceptional relationship? And I don't necessarily mean a romantic relationship, although that's fantastic if you do, but I'm actually referring to any relationship where you can be your most authentic and vulnerable self. It could be a childhood friend, a work colleague, a family member or a spouse, somebody you can share your true thoughts with. A kind of relationship where you feel fully understood and supported for who you are. It can seem like magic. I'm lucky to say that I have a few of these special relationships, but many of us struggle to build these solid connections at work, with friends or at home, or perhaps we thought we had one, but over time it has degraded. Strong relationships and connections have been shown to be associated with high levels of life satisfaction, health and happiness. So it stands to reason that we should want to foster exceptional relationships. And the truth is that the process of building and sustaining these relationships can be described, learned and applied. And that's exactly what my next two guests on today's podcast have done for decades at Stanford Business School's interpersonal relationships is the course that they teach, and it is one of the most popular courses that the MBA program offers. David Bradford is Eugene O'Kelly second senior lecturer emeritus in leadership at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he helped develop interpersonal dynamics, also known as touchy feely. Carol Robin was the Dorothy J King lecturer in leadership at Stanford, where she taught for more than 20 years before co-founding Leaders in Tech, where she brings the principles and process of interpersonal dynamics to executives in Silicon Valley. Their new book, Connect, is a book about exceptional relationships, relationships that help us become more self-aware and compassionate so we can build deep, fulfilling personal connections with a wide range of people in every aspect of our lives. And it is quite simply one of the most moving books that I've ever read. And I know I talk about a lot of books on this podcast, but honestly, this is a special one. On today's podcast, we talk about why the course is so popular amongst MBA students of all backgrounds, how they create epiphanies in a 10-week course, why soft skills are actually tough talks and courageous conversations, and how it has helped people in business, marriage, team culture, parenting and more. We talk about pinches and crunches and why it's important to address them. And don't worry, we do go into the vernacular quite a bit. And also how we can use conflict productively. And what I found most touching about the book and our conversation is the fact that David and Carol are both very human in that they had their own disagreement that almost ended their relationship. And the way they describe it, I think all of us can learn something from. And one of the most beautiful moments I think of the whole podcast was when Carol described to me the Japanese art of Kintsugi. I've never heard of it before, but it's essentially putting broken pottery pieces back together with gold and built on the idea that embracing flaws and imperfections actually leads to an even stronger and more beautiful piece. And I find that just a beautiful analogy for the conversation around relationships that we're going to be talking about today. So without further ado, this is my conversation with David Bradford and Carol Robin.
Dr Rupy: So, like I said, I have to admit, I hadn't heard of the course before, nor the nickname that it's been given, the touchy feely course. I want to ask your personal feelings about that as well. But for those of us who also don't know, I wonder if you could give us an introduction into interpersonal dynamics and the course's origins and how you both got involved.
Carol: So, the course is called interpersonal dynamics. David is the father of interpersonal dynamics. I'll let him say a little bit more about what that even means. But the premise of the course is that one of the keys to both professional and personal success is being interpersonally competent. However, what I think is more important to know is that it's a course that's been taught for decades and thousands and thousands of MBAs for decades have said it was the single most transformative experience of their life. And we hear from them 10 years later telling us that the lessons they learned are still paying off and have not just led to their promotion to be an exec VP or a CEO, but have saved their marriage, have helped them reconcile their relationship with their mother who they hadn't talked to for a year. So it's a little bit the gift that keeps on giving. And it was and by now, 80%, 85% of the students that come to the business school take the course because alums tell them, whatever you do, don't miss this course. David can say a little bit more about how it came to be that popular. And I guess the only other thing I'll say before I ask David to chime in is that one of the things that was so compelling to us about writing the book was that we thought that it was, and in fact, our publisher was the one who suggested that it shouldn't only be the people who are lucky enough and privileged enough to go to the Stanford Graduate School of Business that get to learn all this. But back to and how it came to be called touchy feely and a little more of the history back to David.
David: Okay. So I was brought to Stanford over 55 years ago to develop the course and there'd sort of been roots of the course but very small before that. And the next 30 years, developed it, grew it, and what happened was that as the course became known, more and more students wanted to take it. So by the time Carol came, we were teaching five sections and 40% of the students were taking it. And she and other colleagues helped develop it even further. And so she now said 85% of the students with a wait list. What's exciting about the course is its simplicity. It's not a complicated course, but the simplicity is exciting. And what happens is the 36 students in each section are divided into 12-person groups. You sit down face to face for five hours a week with the assignment of build a learning group where you can learn about yourself from other people's reactions. Just as simple as that. They're puzzled and so on. And they get into it and we all get reactions to other people, but we don't know what to do with them. And it's the Robert Burns poem, oh would the gift of God to give us to see ourselves as others see us. And people gingerly start to take the risk of sharing, well, David, when you did that, I felt bothered. I felt or I felt closer to you. And so I understand myself. But as Carol said, which is really important, it's not just how am I seen by these 11 other people, but I now develop competencies where I can get that from other people. So if I interact with somebody else and they frown, I now know how to find out what's going on with them. And the process, I learn better about myself and the relationship builds. So it's an exciting course because as Carol said, it transfers. It transfers to all sorts of relationships. And people know how to find out about themselves in their interactions.
Carol: And I want to come back to your question about touchy feely and the fact that it's called touchy feely by the students. So, first of all, it's a term of endearment. So we don't, not only do we not take offence, we love the fact that in some way they've made it their own by giving it their own name. Interpersonal dynamics is kind of stodgy and what the heck does that mean? But the other thing that I really love about the fact that they call it touchy feely is the emphasis on the feely. Because a lot of the course is about the importance of feelings, the importance of naming feelings, the importance of being curious about someone else's feelings, having feelings be just as important as thoughts in the way we communicate with each other. And so I love the fact that that embedded in the informal name is the word feely.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I actually wanted to ask you about the distinction between feelings and thoughts and how you introduce that concept in the course itself.
Carol: So, one of one of the premises of the course and it's in the book is that in order to really fully communicate, you've got to communicate both what you're thinking and what you're feeling. It's like treble and bass in music. When you only have one, it sounds a little off, or a lot off. And yet, we've come to value the rational thinking so much and devalue, not only devalue, but almost get uncomfortable with the feelings part that, especially in business, you're supposed to leave the feeling part of you in the parking lot before you walk into the office. And the problem is that that isn't how people connect. People do not connect strictly from head to head. In fact, they connect much better from heart to heart. So, in many cases, we're having to re- to to retrain ourselves. By the way, little kids are great at this. They haven't learned not to express their feelings. But we have to figure out how to retrain ourselves to access our feelings to begin with and then to express them in ways that build connection.
David: So if I can build on that, the importance of feelings is they tell other people about me. So if something happens and I say, I'm a little bothered, or I'm upset, or I'm really angry, that says something about about me, what's important to me. But equally important, feelings give meaning to thoughts. So, as we say in the book, Carol and I are known for interrupting each other and interrupting everybody else. It's a makes a world of difference if somebody says, David, you interrupted me, and I really like it because it's a sign you're engaged, or you really interrupted me and I'm annoyed because I feel dismissed. The fact, the thought of interruption has a totally different meaning depending what feelings get put on it. So even conveying thoughts demands we share the emotions that go with it. So it's it's a way you know me personally, it's a way we communicate more accurately.
Dr Rupy: You know, one of the most useful parts of the book for me was was actually the appendix and the vocab of feelings. Exactly what I'm talking about. When for those of you who haven't seen the book yet, there is a table in the back where you look at different descriptions of feelings and you grade them according to severity or how heightened you are. And and I guess when we say things to ourselves, we don't really recognise the intensity of that feeling. And I think we use our vocabulary and vernacular quite flippantly sometimes without really understanding where we are on that scale. And I just thought that that was honestly one of the most impactful elements of the book. There were tons of things in the book, but that's really, really useful.
Carol: We put that vocabulary in the book because it's part of the syllabus in the course. When we teach, when we teach students to include their feelings in the way they talk to each other, many of them are like, or they used to be until we gave them a vocabulary, like, uh, uh, uh. So we literally have a laminated vocabulary of feelings that we hand them all. And they sit in these circles that David was just talking about and they're asked by the facilitators, how are you feeling? And they literally have to look at the list and say, uh, I'm feeling disappointed. That's what it is. Disappointed. Now, after a while, they get a little bit more facile with it and they don't always need to pull out the sheet. But I love the fact that you love the appendix and that's why we put it in there.
David: We tend to be inaccurate and discounted. So we say, I'm a little troubled. Well, are you really a little troubled? In fact, one of the things which I'll sometimes do when I'm in the groups is a person will say, well, I'm a little bothered. And I'll say, this much with an inch between it. And they say, no, as a matter of fact, I'm more bothered than that. So in our dismissing of emotions, we don't communicate very accurately and then other people don't know us.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And you know, I guess on the surface of it, someone who might come across the course for the first time and not have read the book, might think that this is soft and this is something that might be applicable to one area of life. But in reality, as you said right at the start, Carol, this course has helped people in business, people in marriage, team culture, parenting, there's so many varied experiences just from one course. How on earth does that come about from that one course in a business school?
Carol: Well, one of the beauties of these groups that David was describing is that whatever comes up in the group is up to the group. So it's not, it's not as though we've said, okay, today you're going to talk about this project and how you each are feeling about the project. It's there's almost, there is no agenda. There's no predetermined agenda for them, which means that we've created a laboratory for them to experiment. And in fact, they all have reactions to the fact that we haven't given them an agenda. Well, what are we supposed to do? So then somebody says, well, why don't we go around and introduce ourselves? And then somebody says, well, I think that's going to be boring. And then somebody else says, well, do you have a better idea? And then pretty soon they're learning a lot about themselves and each other, aren't they? And because of that initial condition that occurs, they don't feel constrained to only apply what they're learning to business or to work. They realise that what they're learning applies to anybody they're interacting with about anything. They also then start to experiment with using some of what they're learning outside the classroom with their significant other, with their roommates, with their parents. We used to love to teach this course in the fall because in the United States we have Thanksgiving and they would go home for Thanksgiving. And I'd have students that would come back and say, my mom said, I don't know what happened to you, but this is much better. Because, you know, suddenly they were having conversations that they just didn't even realise they wanted to have or could have, much less have in ways that turned out to be bring them closer.
David: I think another way to come at what Carol is saying is think, when you walk down the halls, say at the hospital or at your another place, the number of times we sort of half talk to ourselves. Boy, I was really annoyed about how that person responded. Gee, they were really nice to me, that sort of thing. So we have all of these emotional reactions sort of a little below the surface that we don't realise. We spend the whole day having that and we don't know what to do with it. And so I think the course does two things, which is what Carol is saying. One is it gets me to recognise what I'm feeling that was just below the surface and also gives me a way to legitimately share it. Now, this is not to say that one walks down all the time and shares everything. I mean, we lock up people who do that. But we now have choices about I can do more than I thought I could because I recognise and I see a situation in which I can express those.
Dr Rupy: It's such a good point because I really want to pick up on a part of the book that I think appealed to me one of the most and that was this concept of pinches and crunches because what you just said there about the feelings being legitimized and actually allowing yourself the space to explore those and how you might be annoyed or angered prevents that build up and that rumination of feelings which leads to an outburst sometimes, whether that be your partner or a professional work colleague, etc. I wonder if you could introduce the concept of pinches and crunches because I thought that was so relevant, particularly in today's current scenario.
David: This is was developed by two colleagues of ours, Jack Sherwood and Jack Glidewell. And it's the notion that whenever we interact with friends, with people we love, with strangers, we inadvertently do things that pinch them. You know, it's not a colossal affront, but it's a pinch. And we have a choice of, do I say anything? Do I not say anything? And we're not saying you raise every pinch. I mean, life is short and we let things pass. But and we sort of say, well, that's so minor. I'm just going to get. And often it goes away and that's fine. But at times it lingers, or as Carol often points out, we sort of put it aside, but two days later you do the same thing. And then the pinch is a little harder. And then we say, should I, should I not? And what we say is that most of the time, you know, we say, okay, tough it out, I really am not bothered because we deny our feelings. And it sits and it festers. And then you do it a third time and I blow up and you say, what's going on? You know, I just did this. And if, and again, we don't raise it every time, but maybe the second time I got annoyed, I can raise it without a lot of heat and without a lot of aggression. And I can say, I felt a little bit bothered. Now, may not have been a little bit, but at least I'm raising it. And we can prevent it from being a crunch.
Carol: In fact, we the vernacular, the vocabulary helps in, you know, among our colleagues and our students, the word pinch has the meaning. I feel pinched and everybody knows what that means. It hasn't become a big capital offense yet, but I'm feeling pinched. And what's more, one of the things that we tend to say in a situation like that is, ah, it's not worth it. And one of the things that we say in the book and we tell our students is, substitute the pronoun it for me or you. You're not worth it, or I'm not worth it. And then ask yourself again whether or not raising it is worth it.
Dr Rupy: I really like that tactic and it's something that I'm trying to practice with myself actually, turning that it's not worth it into I'm not worth it or you're not worth it because it it heightens up the importance of it and to your point, it's super important. And I think in an era where during the pandemic, a lot more of us are working from home, pandemic pinches are a big issue. And you know, small, small pinches, whether it be your partner, whether it be, you know, work colleagues or anything, they can escalate. And I think even more so, I'm seeing this as a clinician, but I'm also, you know, experiencing it as someone who's also affected by the current scenario that I become a bit more irate even with small things. And I realize actually from reading the book, it's because of a collection of pinches that have turned into a crunch. And now, again, to the point I made about the appendix, I have the vocabulary to express what I'm feeling.
Carol: And what are you finding? What are you finding happens when you do?
Dr Rupy: When I do express them or when I suppress them?
Carol: Yeah, when you express the feelings that you're that you've started expressing.
Dr Rupy: Lifted, absolutely lifted because it allows me the space to be able to talk about it with my partner or family members rather than it ruminating and me having a grudge against someone not really knowing why. Instead of feeling green about that person, there's all manner of like green amber. You know, you're not particularly, you don't have that much animosity, but there is a feeling of discontent and that can boil over as well.
David: You're sharing that helps me because when we raise as a pinch, usually the other person says, oh, sorry, I didn't mean it. But that person then learns something. I know in interacting with you, when I do X, you feel pinched. I don't want to do that. So this is why we say feedback is a gift because now I understand what I'm doing is effective or not effective and what I'm doing is making you closer to me or distant. And I need to know that because I want in most cases to have a closer relationship.
Carol: And I just had a moment with you, Rupy, where when you said I feel lifted, my heart soared. I mean, honestly, honestly, I was like, oh, wow, the fact that he read this book and that's what it's done for him, I mean, that's why we wrote the book.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think a lot of people are going to be having those same realizations. I mean, I think I've I've heard it described in some articles as the course creating epiphanies. It's it's literally having those courageous talks that lead to an epiphany. I mean, that must that must feel so lovely to get that much, you know, positive feedback, but also the validation is the fact that so many business students want to do the course and have been over the last few decades.
David: That's what gives Carol and me such joy, such pleasure. The whole notion of could we make this world a better world? Could everybody come away with a little more knowledge and their relationships are more positive? That's that's what I live for. And I think also for Carol.
Carol: And I was going to say that the really cool thing about teaching at a place like Stanford Business School and and and providing this for all of these MBAs is the ripple effect. They go out and they now develop teams and companies and cultures that that actually are that celebrate this way of being and interacting with each other and that and that are, it's one of the things that led to my creation of leaders in tech. I left Stanford three years ago and, you know, leaders in tech, which is bringing everything we taught at Stanford to the Silicon Valley CEO founder community, because we're committed to creating a different Silicon Valley so that it's not just one that creates really fabulous cool stuff out there at the expense of what you do to people.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And I think now more than ever with what we understand about our weaknesses when it comes to social media, I think it's ever more important to make sure that people who are in charge of creating such products understand the importance of connection and human relationships, right?
Carol: Yep.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. And I think, you know, on the surface of it, it must be very hard to teach that type of self-awareness to a bunch of strong-willed, and forgive me for generalizing, but strong-willed individuals that are attracted to going to Stanford Business School in the first place. I mean, those soft skills must require quite a bit of convincing and perhaps a lot of hard work initially.
Carol: No.
Dr Rupy: No?
David: Um, I'll, Carol has some wonderful experience with her leaders in tech, but I also do some consulting and what I find is that particularly people who are in hard numerical occupations, and I'm thinking about work I've done in accounting firms or engineers, they are not comfortable with this, but they're also hungry for this because there's part of them that says, I'm a bit lonely, I'm unconnected. I don't know how to relate. And once they see that this can be powerful. So let me give an example of what might happen in a group. So a person says, well, we ought to introduce ourselves and I'm going to go first and I'm going to do that in a sort of way. And somebody says, hey, Charlie, that bothers me. You made a decision and didn't check with me. So I turned off. And that person sort of rocks back because they then realize how often they've turned off other people. So it doesn't take many interactions like that before they say, yeah, this is what I've needed. This is this is what I feel is lacking. It isn't just numbers.
Carol: And it doesn't take long for people in business as they climb up the ladder to recognize that people do business with people. They don't do business with ideas or machines or products or money or strategies. They do business with people. So we have the advantage now with all the legend that's attached to the course, that, you know, students don't ever doubt that they're going to get a great deal of value out of the course. But when we've gone out, and of course, we're able to ride that coattail a little bit when we as consultants go out and get invited into companies to to do this work. And I remember one time being doing something at NASA for obviously a bunch of scientists and engineers and I was talking about all this and one of them and you know, they were like really struggling and I said, come on, you guys, it's it's just people stuff. It's not rocket science. And they and one of them looked at me and said, oh, Carol, this is so much harder than rocket science. So sometimes the soft skills are the harder skills. And they turn out to be the most important skills, certainly with regard to whether or not how far you're going to get in business.
David: And and part of how we're helped, and this has really been helpful the last 20 years, is the work on emotional intelligence. Goldman's work, which really shows that the best predictor for leadership success is not IQ, but it's EQ. And this is now, I think, being more and more realized. So we have just to say, look, you've seen this, you've seen, you have colleagues who are very bright who shoot themselves in the foot. And they say, yeah, you know, that was Sam just yesterday. And what am I going to do? So there's so much wonderful research that supports the importance of this. And and also, in your field, you know the research that doctors get sued not in terms of their professional competence, but in terms of their relationship with the patient. That's and also their success as a doctor, as you know, there's research which shows depends on their ability to build that relationship. Makes a difference in how quickly the patient gets well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. There's a saying amongst my colleagues that patients won't remember what you prescribed them or what you treated them with, but they'll remember how you made them feel.
Carol: It's a variation on a on a poem by a by an American author.
Dr Rupy: Oh, really? I didn't I didn't actually realize that.
Carol: Uh, yeah, it's uh, Angela, uh, Maya Angelou has a poem that says, people will forget what you said, but they won't forget how you made them feel.
Dr Rupy: Yes, exactly.
Carol: So, yeah, and and and I would add that what, when David was talking about, um, about doctors, oh gosh, that thought kind of left before I got it out. Oh well, uh, you're a doctor. You're a doctor. I could say, maybe time to up the estrogen. Um, but I just remembered it again. Bought myself some time, made a joke, and I'm back. Um, so, uh, it it was, I don't know if your audience knows who Ray Dalio is, but one of the most supreme compliments that we got and it's a blurb in the book, a an endorsement in the book, is Ray Dalio said this book was the best blend of IQ and EQ that he'd ever read. Um, and to David's point, uh, so much of business is focused on the or had been focused on the IQ until Goldman came along, said, you better start paying attention to this. And, uh, and then, you know, we're just really happy. I I think we both experienced a big shift in, for me it was over 20 years, for David it was over probably 40 years in the in the attitude that students came in with with regard to learning this.
David: And and what I'd want to add to that is which is different way of phrasing what Carol was saying, is that soft sounds like easy and sounds like mushy. And there's a real toughness in this, not hardness, not meanness, but it's really a toughness to say to somebody with caring, what you're doing really pisses me off and it's hurting you and hurting our relationship. You don't have to sugarcoat it. If you stick with, as we say, your reality, the reaction to you, and I can be direct and I can be hard, but I'm hard as an act of kindness. So the we rephrase the American company, the Hallmark company, we say, I care enough to say the very worst. That when it's said with caring to help you and to help us, uh, is is a form of toughness that uh is embedded in what we're doing.
Carol: And I do want to underscore that that your intent in saying what you're saying is important to convey. Um, because and and and I think too many people don't remember that part. And when they don't remember that part, they give the other person, if you if you've just said, you know, Carol, what you just did really ticked me off. Direct, and in fact, if you were really specific, you just cut me off. That's the third time you just cut me off. I'm getting more and more annoyed. Great. It's your feelings, it's my behavior. And I'm telling you this because I'm finding myself retreating more and more or feeling more and more distant or less and less inclined to continue our conversation. Well, then that becomes clear to me that it's because you're giving me a gift.
David: And if I can build on that, and you see this is what's wonderful. Saying all of that means I can say it early in the relationship. When I have said it early in the relationship and the relationship builds, I don't have to say it. So Carol doesn't have to say that to me. She doesn't have to put it that in because I know she cares. So she can say, damn it, David, you've done it again. Because we have built a relationship where that's implied. But until we've built a relationship, we need to say it.
Dr Rupy: That's a super important point. So essentially, as I understand it, the it's okay to be tough and direct as long as you are coating that with the correct intent and you're actually explaining that to the person in front of you. However, as your relationship progresses, perhaps there's less need to clarify exactly everything you mean because they already inherently know what you mean.
Carol: Exactly. And that ties to a very fundamental premise of an exceptional relationship. We are both committed to each other's learning and growth. And if we feel that way, if I genuinely believe David is committed to my learning and growth and vice versa, almost don't have to say it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
David: And I've been married over 55 years. And there are times in which I need to tell Eva, and I love you. But I don't have to do it every time.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And just to draw on the parallel actually, um, that you were saying over the last few decades, you've noticed a bit more acceptance of these skills as being critical. I think the same could be said of medicine. When I first went to medical school, 17 years ago now, I was taught communication skills and that was fairly novel in the trajectory of how medical curricula has progressed over the last few decades. That is really in response, I guess, to uh, the issues that we've had with patient and doctor conflict and expressing feelings and making sure the patient is heard. But I think what's still lacking is the interpersonal dynamics amongst team members, amongst medics, because we still operate in a very much a hierarchical system where you have the consultant or the attending, as your American colleagues would call it, and every, you know, sort of um, level below that all down all the way to the junior doctor. And that really hasn't been explored as much. I think the pandemic will accelerate some of that, but but it's definitely something I think could learn a lot from from what you're teaching in business school.
Carol: Absolutely. And I think one of the things you're talking about is it's even more important in a system where there are power differentials. And uh, and a lot of people just accept the lower power people accept, oh well, I'm lower power, so they disempower themselves even more. Uh, and the higher power people don't recognize the cost they're paying. So to the extent that you can build conditions where people can talk about that and uh, and first of all, they narrow the power differential, which is always more functional. The bigger the power differential, the more dysfunction you're going to have. You're never going to get rid of it, but if you can make it smaller, you're certainly going to have more functional relationships. Um, and everyone's going to feel more empowered.
David: And and if we can move to industries, of course, all the research on airline crashes is except for the deficiencies in some of the new Boeings, that all do because the assistant, the co-pilot didn't speak up. The primary and they are now training co-pilots to speak up. And one of the things about speaking up and being direct, often when we disagree, we ask a question. So the co-pilot would say, are you sure that we aren't going a little too fast, which evokes a pilot to say, no, we're doing fine, rather than being direct about it. And can I be direct without attacking you?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's actually something that is being encouraged a lot more in the emergency department, which is where I spend most of my clinical career at the moment, where you use inquiry in a non-judgmental fashion in a way that is explorative rather than like you said, sort of accusatory. Um, and we do actually look at the airline industry and see what we can learn from how they're training co-pilots to use that sort of language to assess safety and actually just maintain safety. It's it's that team sort of framework that they're trying to encourage.
Carol: Oh, that's really interesting.
David: Good.
Dr Rupy: As someone who shies away from conflict, however, I know you were talking about tough conversations, and maybe outside of like, you know, the A&E environment, um, I tend to become quite passive, um, rather than, you know, unless something is really bothering me, obviously, but but I understand how that might turn into rumination and then you hold these deep-seated grudges, etc. But I wonder if there's something in why we are averse to conflict. Is this a personality trait of mine or is this actually something that is quite common amongst amongst people in general?
Carol: Well, for starters, most of us have had an experience with conflict that didn't go well. Either we were in it or we observed it. And one of the things that happens is that we overlearn. We take that experience and we decide, oh, that's what's going to happen anytime I go anywhere near conflict. Uh, first of all, we overgeneralize and second of all, we overlearn. And as David likes to say, a cat never sits on a hot stove twice, but it never sits on a cold stove again either. So we get locked into beliefs, assumptions, what we call mental models. And then we stop, hey, we stop learning and growing. But we also, and partly because we stop experimenting. It's it's a knob, it's not a switch. It's like, oop, never doing that again is one way to react. I think I'm going to see if I can learn how to do that in ways that creates slightly different outcomes. Uh, is another way to think about it. Uh, but it's hard to even get there if you've already decided, I've got to avoid that at all costs.
David: And I think um, yes, and it's often how we raise it. In the book, we are very explicit about talking about this. We usually raise it in an accusatory way, not leading with the feelings as Carol's talking about. So we say, you know, you not only you have done this, but you are this sort of person. It's because you're a mean person, that you do that. Well, as soon as I start that, um, your defenses are up and you're to the battlement and you're going to return a volley. Well, you return a volley and I return a volley back and we have escalated uh out of any sort of functional problem solving. So part of it's how we raise it. Part of it's can we catch ourselves? Can we um say, wait a minute, what the devil's going on here? Or uh, come on, we can talk about this better. And we can catch each other. I remember with some embarrassment sometime ago, I got into a fight with Eva and I went out of the room and slammed the door. She opened the door, she said, you come back in here. We haven't finished this. And so, uh, either party can say, wait a minute, this is escalated beyond where it should and we can do things. Also, we don't know how to repair with conflict. And so we sort of say, well, let's agree to disagree, which is a very dangerous statement because it doesn't resolve anything and the feelings linger. So in the book we talk about how you can raise it in a way that doesn't prevent necessarily hurt. There's no easy answer, but it lessens the probability. And when you're in the situation, you can deescalate and focus on what's important and then how can you repair. And most people don't have those competencies. And we hope that the book helps people.
Carol: And in fact, the reason most people don't have the competencies to repair is that they've become conflict averse, like you, Rupy. So then they don't have a chance to get into conflict. They don't have a chance to figure out how to repair it. They don't have any any sense of confidence that they can repair it. So then they don't get into conflict and it becomes a negatively reinforcing loop.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. So there are ways in which to use conflict productively, I guess, and and take it as a learning opportunity rather than another notch against your relationship that deems it for failure.
Carol: In fact, it's a way to strengthen a relationship. I mean, the last chapter in the book is the is the story of David and me, you know, who had a exceptional relationship and, you know, I had a big fight and I said I'd never talk to him again. Um, and and it was it was the coming back from that that that not only strengthened our relationship even more, but it's the it's the reason that we wrote a book together. I don't know that I would have ever agreed to write a book with David, who I idolized as a god, um, and and until I felt on a on a more equal footing with him. And I didn't and I didn't get there until we had this big fight and came back from it.
Dr Rupy: So I I purposely haven't read the last two chapters because you hinted in the very start of the book that you both experienced difficulties within your own professional relationship. And the fact that, you know, you teach this, I want you to indulge us with actually what happened. But before we get on to that, you've you've mentioned a couple of things in terms of the progress of a relationship and it brings me back to something that you describe as the arc of a relationship, which I find a very interesting concept. Could you could you indulge us in a bit more about about what the arc of a relationship is? Maybe David can start.
David: Yeah. Um, all you can't have instant intimacy. Um, relationships take time, but more they take effort, they take willingness to to work on it. Uh, I think one of the myths is the marriage ceremony which says, or the Hollywood marriage ceremony which says and they lived happily ever after. Uh, once you get married, you start to work. And uh, so relationships start off with we're a bit cautious with each other. Like uh, you and I don't know each other. Uh, although I'm feeling closer in this last 40 minutes because it's it's been positive for me. So the relationship starts to grow. And um, after a little bit more, um, you do something that pinches me and hopefully I, if it's important enough, I raise it. And in raising it, you say, oh gee, David, I'm sorry. Well, the relationship then moves further along. If you would say, well, you're such a turkey, you deserve it, uh, that's going to stymy the relationship for a while until we can deal with it. Then we can move it along. So it moves along to us sharing more of ourselves, uh, what's going on, uh, trusting each other more, uh, raising pinches, raising conflicts and resolving it. And one moves along. So one of the things we'd want to stress is that not every relationship needs to be or should be exceptional. But what we hope is that the reader says, I now have the competencies that I can take any relationship and move it further along the arc if I want to.
Dr Rupy: And and within this arc of relationship, I guess this this progresses over time, there is a degree, um, or there is a need, I guess, to display vulnerability. And I think vulnerability is a term that gets used quite a bit. But so perhaps we can define exactly what we mean by vulnerability and why this is important not just in romantic relationships, but but actually all types of relationships.
Carol: Yeah, I I think that goes back to that beginning of the arc that David was talking about, which is when we first start out, you don't know me that well and I don't know you that well. The one of the reasons this course has such impact on these students and we hope the book will is that the experience of being more known, of being more seen for who I really am is a profoundly affirming experience. And so many of us go through life spinning our image, trying to trying to present something to the world because we think that's what the world will respond to. And one of the things the students discover and that happens along this arc is I show you a little bit more of the real me. And if when I show you that, you like that even more than the spun image, then that feels pretty good to me. And then maybe you decide to show me a little bit more of you. And maybe I learn to do things that invite you to do that. So that early disclosure that builds into more and more disclosure on the it does feel vulnerable because I don't know how you're going to react. And yet, without it, you can't, you can't get, you can't really get very far on the, you know, on the on the path. Um, because, you know, the closer I hold my cards, the closer you're going to hold yours. And then it's going to be pretty hard to to to climb the mountain as we as we say in the metaphor of the book. Uh, so that I think that's where vulnerability becomes. The other thing, here's another mental model. People hold vulnerability as, I used to put the word vulnerability on the whiteboard and I used to say to students, okay, what are the first words that come to mind? Weak, fragile, scary. And then I'd say any others? And then finally, one would say, courageous. Somebody else would say, strength. But notice how our immediate reaction is all that bad stuff until somebody stops and thinks, but wait, you know, when somebody's willing to be vulnerable, how courageous and how connecting. Uh, and that's why one of the reasons feelings are so important in the course and the book is that expressing feelings often feels a lot more vulnerable than expressing thoughts and certainly opinions.
David: This really what this comes up in terms of uh work situations and people say, well, at work I can't be vulnerable. And again, there's some interesting research about there's vulnerability and there's vulnerability. And I want to underline Carol's point that often the most vulnerable things are my feelings, not something I've done in the past that's been illegal, immoral or fattening, whatever it is. It's really my response to you now. But the research shows that when leaders are vulnerable about who they are, how they're feeling, respect goes up. They often think, gee, I shouldn't be vulnerable about that because will people see me as weak as Carol said. But instead it's it's uh really about who I am as a person. Now, if it's vulnerability about my basic competence, that's a different story. So I what I would say is that when I teach the leadership course and we talk about this, I say, if in the first day I had said to you, I don't know anything about leadership, but I've been assigned this course, you would run me over as you rush out of the room. Um, but if I go in and say, and I've done this, where I've said, I'm really trying to be present, but my son is sick and I'm feeling distracted, but I'm I want to tell you where I am right now, but I'm really going to try and and be present for you. All of a sudden respect goes up. And uh, I have a wonderful example of a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, privately, uh publicly held but still within the family. And uh, John had taken over from his father four years ago and was CEO. And his father died and everybody, the executive team had gone to the funeral. And the first meeting after the funeral, John started the meeting with his direct reports and said, uh, before we get on the agenda, I want to tell you how I'm feeling. Obviously, I'm sad. I miss my father, but I also feel this great responsibility now on my shoulder that I have something that I have to carry on. I want to tell you that. And you could feel the team sort of coalescing around him, wanting to help him. Which is very different than if John would have said, well, I'm only in this job because I'm my father's son and I'm really not adequate. That's not the vulnerability we're talking about. We're talking about being vulnerable about me as a human being. And that's risky. And that's what we encourage and that's what is powerful.
Carol: And I want to come back for a moment to why I don't think I would have ever agreed to write this book with David, had we not gone through this. And that's because, you know, David was my mentor and he was he was the father of touchy feely. And uh, I was his heir apparent at Stanford. And um, I was in awe. He was like a god. And when when he when he did what he did or didn't do what he didn't do, he came down to earth as a human being who makes, in my view, mistakes. Look at that. He's just a plain old human being who sometimes screws up. And and that made a huge difference. We talked about power imbalances earlier. It made a huge difference to me that suddenly I saw David as as, you know, still just incredible in terms of what he's accomplished and what he knows and and he'll always be a mentor and I feel like an equal. And I'm not sure I would have felt like an equal if we hadn't been through this together, come out the other side. Um, and I would have felt like I always had to defer to him somehow or he always would have to have the last word because after all, he was the, you know, he was the god. Um, and was that worth that that time? Probably. Actually, yes, not even probably.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, thank you so much for sharing your story in that way. I know it it it demonstrates exactly what you talk about in your in your courses and I'm so glad that the book came about because it one of my questions is what you feel a tool could be in the toolkit for exceptional relationships. And I connect has in the in the time I've read it, I've been putting into practice so many things and I mean that genuinely and and listeners to the podcast know that I wouldn't give praise where I really wasn't putting it into action. It's helped professional relationships, personal relationships and family relationships already. And I'm still to read the last couple of chapters where I go into a bit more depth, but I feel like I've got a good impression of what to expect. Um, but I guess I'd love to wrap up this conversation with um, perhaps some some key tools that that you think would be um, useful and beneficial for listeners when it comes to building exceptional relationships in addition to obviously picking up a copy of Connect and uh and reading it cover to cover.
Carol: Well, let me start by saying a couple of things. The first is, we did not write three easy steps to building closer relationships because they don't exist. Um, and the reason, uh, we couldn't write that or wouldn't write that is because one size doesn't fit all. So the first thing I'd want a reader, a listener to know is, there's a there's you'll have to allow for the possibility that you need a whole toolkit because one tool, one hammer will only hurt, will only work when you come across nails. Um, and, uh, you know, there are a couple of very key tools to to your point. I'll I'll name one or two and then, you know, I'm sure David will have others. The first is to recognize this two antenna that we talk about, that we have an that we all have an internally focused antenna that picks up signals on what's going on for us internally, our feelings. And we also have an external antenna that picks up signals for what's going on for someone else. And the more you learn to tune those two antenna to pick up more and more signals, particularly the more signals that are lower at first, uh, lower level, the better you're going to get at figuring out, making the choices about what you want to share about what's going on for you with someone else and asking someone else about what's going on for them, which takes me to tool number two, which is inquiry. The importance of being really curious. Inquiry is impossible to do if you don't suspend judgment. Inquiry was what David and I stopped doing. And it wasn't until we got into inquiry, what is really going on here for David? Uh, without deciding he's wrong. How can I get curious enough to understand the other person? And by the way, another person will know whether you're really curious or whether you're just asking questions that are going to be gotchas or to assert hypotheses or to do something else other than learn more about them. So that's where I'd start. David, I'm sure you've got things to add.
David: No, that's that's crucial. That's crucial. I think central to what we're saying is a belief that if we can talk about something and really talk about something, most problems can be solved. So, um, so and and talking about something isn't just me talking, but with talking is my listening. And that's where Carol's points are, that can I really, really listen and really, really, really listen and want to understand, want to understand the other person. I think the other what ties in with that is can we accept the fact that we may most of the time know what we're feeling, our internal antenna, what's going on for us. But we never really know the other person. Oh, we think we do and we make assessments, but we don't really know. And can we step back and say, could I have stepped back and said, why is Carol who's so damn smart doing that? Why? And really want to know, could we get somewhere? I think the final, we've talked about the importance of risks, but I want to share what I've heard more often than not from managers who say, I've never made a mistake. I've only had learning experiences. So I want to reframe mistakes. If I'm in contact conflict with somebody, that's a sign something's going on, not that the other person's wrong. Can I learn from that? I've learned from what I did with our conflict. So, uh, and so I'm going to end with a story. The story is that Renoir's um final words on his deathbed in his 80s was, ah, that's the way to do it. Which I love because he was always trying to figure out and you know if it was five years later, he'd say the same thing. So can we see life as a process of learning and say, oh, that wasn't a mistake, that was a learning experience. And uh, and I think the book takes those general statements and hopefully helps the reader say how I can put this into practice.
Carol: And I have an acronym. You might remember it from the book, yes? Go ahead. Every every mistake is an AFOG. A, another, F, fricking. Because I don't know, because I don't know your audience well enough to know if anyone's going to take offence. O, opportunity, G, growth. Another fricking opportunity for growth. And boy, let me tell you, if there's one thing my students write back over and over, had an AFOG. They write to tell me about their AFOGs. And you know, which is a like, boy, talk about something that makes me feel happy.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, there's so many elements of the book and the stories that you weave in there as well that I just think it it gives an edge of realism and relatability for the for the reader. And I think from a personal perspective, the things that I've definitely taken out from the book that have been helpful for me the most are the appendix, the vocab, the pinches and crunches because I now have the, you know, explanation and the way to explain myself. Um, and the other thing is space, actually, the importance, particularly in a modern world which is dominated by to-do lists, tasks, social media, Netflix, whatever, you know, insert hour of your time, the opportunity to not do anything and actually spend time with your partner to air whatever might be the, you know, shortcomings or the the issues of the week, that for me has been pretty pivotal as well. And I think that's definitely a practice I want to um, expand upon and and continue going forward. So, so thank you very much for for giving me those tools for my toolkit. It's been brilliant.
Carol: I hope you're also sharing the joys of the week and the things you're appreciating about each other for the week. Uh, and you know, it's really, it's it one of the things I worry about a little bit because it's so powerful to have tools now to have conversations about difficulties and challenges, don't forget that it's equally connecting to have even better conversations about what's working well, to have a vocabulary to express what you appreciate about each other. So I'd want to make sure that that got somehow woven in.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Oh, don't worry. We have a gratitude list that we fill out every day.
Carol: Excellent. Excellent.
