Dr Tara Swart: And of course you can't remember everything that you've experienced in your whole life, but we we know now that there's an enormous connection between the nerves in the gut and the nerves in the limbic part of the brain, which is the intuitive part of the brain. And so we believe that that wisdom, the of the life lessons that you've picked up, is stored deeper in the spinal cord and the gut neurons and perhaps even in the neurons that go throughout your entire body. So when you get that gut instinct, you're actually accessing, it's pattern recognition, but you're accessing wisdom that you've experienced in your life but you don't consciously remember.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to The Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life. What if we could harness the power of our thoughts to change the function of our brain and manifest the perfect life that we've always wanted for ourselves? Now you might be thinking I'm talking about new age self-help sensationalism here, quantum physics and other hype, but I'm actually talking about concepts rooted in ancient philosophy, but that are actually being proven by breakthroughs in neuroscience and neuroimaging. Today I'm delighted to be chatting with Dr Tara Swart. She is a neuroscientist, medical doctor, executive advisor, senior lecturer at MIT Sloan and author of the bestseller The Source, which is a book that distils the principles and actions of how we can harness the power of our conscious mind to alter the world around us. And that's quite literally what I've just said, and it's quite fascinating to have this explained through the lens of science. Dr Tara is passionate about disseminating simple, pragmatic, neuroscience-based messages that change the way people live and work. And she personally advises a small number of individuals by personal recommendation. Today we talk about the field of nutrition, the microbiota and how that has an impact on our thoughts, brain healthy foods, brain healthy exercises, but also brain healthy thoughts, ancient wisdom and how this has been gradually explained through the lens of neuroscience. We also dive into the law of attraction and how to manifest your thoughts into reality. Something that I feel intuitively I've always been a big believer in, but up until this point I didn't realise actually was explained through neurocognitive science. Brain agility, neuroplasticity, a whole bunch of other reasons as to why action boarding, which is the process of putting images on a board and visualising exactly what that looks like, feels like in the future. Something I've been doing for the last year or so and have found immense benefit from as well. We also talk a bit about Tara's personal story of leaving her job, divorce and moving country all at the same time and how she harnessed the power of her mind to actually create the life that she now lives. And we also talk a bit about what she's got planned over the next couple of years as well, which I'm personally super excited about. I think you're going to absolutely love this podcast. This is for anyone who really wants to try and take control of what is currently for everyone quite an unnerving situation in a post-pandemic world. So I think you're really going to enjoy this one. We do talk about food quite a bit, but we we talk about a number of other concepts that quite frankly astounded me and her book, The Source, you can find this and all the other links to some of the things that we talked about on the show on the podcast page, thedoctorskitchen.com/podcasts. Onto the pod. So, I mean there's so many different places that different things I wanted to ask you about. I've made a whole bunch of notes here in terms of, I wanted to first ask you about that sort of difficult time where you've been working as a junior doctor, training in psychiatry, had some personal disruption to your life as well. And that process of essentially practicing what you now preach and that sort of that transition point for you and and how you've sort of catapulted your career thereafter.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I mean it's so, it's it's quite profound actually, like looking back on it now and kind of thinking there was definitely a time that I didn't really know what I was doing or what was going on, you know, at the time, but when I look back, it makes sense to me in a way, like it's very much the Jungian process of individuation. You know, I was in my mid-30s. Um, and I basically had that wake-up call that I'd been living my life on autopilot. I'd just followed the path that had been laid out for me and never really stopped to step back and think about what my real purpose was on this planet, what I could, you know, if I was doing the thing that I'm best at, how that would really contribute to to society and and you know, make me the best me and um be able to do the things that could also help other people. And so what was interesting was having been a psychiatrist, going through a divorce, I was very aware of the emotional rollercoaster and I remember thinking, if I didn't know what was going on in my brain, I could see how somebody could end up on a psychiatric ward, you know, given this sort of the level of stress and just all the new things that you're going through and feeling and experiencing. And so I felt very grateful that I had the neuroscience and the psychiatry in my background as a real guide. And when I look back, I really feel that intuitively because obviously of everything that we learn at medical school and you know, that I learned in my PhD, my defaults were to go to those good behaviours, like make sure I got enough sleep, make sure I did some exercise, make sure I found ways to recharge my resilience. Um, you know, eating really well. So, so even when I then suddenly found myself on my own, I would still really cook properly for myself every day. Um, and it's interesting because just recently someone said, oh it's it's no fun cooking for one, is it? But I said, you know, it's just so important to me to eat well that and and the cooking process is quite therapeutic, so I would never really skimp on that. Um, and and then I started to think, okay, I've got a huge advantage here because I know these things, but not everybody does. And so, you know, usually in life, I mean, I'm sure there are some people that go through life and, you know, nothing goes wrong, but for most people at some point there'll be some kind of challenge, a health challenge or a personal challenge. And so I really started to feel like if I could distil the things that helped me to get through a personal challenge, hopefully that could be really helpful for other people too. Um, but you know, I didn't plan to write a book on it or anything like that. That sort of happened by serendipity, but I think that I started to take much more agency over the course of my life, both both personally and professionally. But then I always like to say, you have to leave a little bit of room for magic because things could, you know, opportunities could come up that you couldn't possibly plan in advance. So I would say it's the fine, you know, balance and combination of that that's probably led me to where I am now.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, and I I I read your book and I hear a lot of sort of um ancient wisdom influence coming through. Um, I was going to ask, is that something that has been instilled into you as a part of growing up in a in an Asian household with that sort of, you know, culture around whether it be Ayurvedic medicine or or other sort of practices?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, absolutely all of that. And you know, as an adult, I look back and was so grateful that I had access to that rich cultural heritage. But as a child or a teenager, I just wanted to fit in with my friends. And you know, my yeah. So and and as you know, you know, I grew up in a part of London that's not particularly, has doesn't have a particularly large Asian community. And so, um, you know, that wasn't really something that I was part of. So for me it was very much like keeping two parts of my life separate. And, you know, my parents ate in a way and had certain practices like meditation and yoga that my friends, you know, families didn't do. Um, so I managed to sort of live those two separate lives, but I kind of rejected the one that meant I didn't fit in and be part of the group until until I became an adult. Um, and even then there was a bit of a a conflict because when you're studying Western medicine, but your family, you know, believes in Ayurvedic stuff, it's it's still a conflict. And it was really only when yoga became mainstream and all my friends started doing it that, you know, I also wanted to try it and I and I loved it and I took to it and um, I started to sort of think maybe these things can coexist in a more peaceful way. Um, and again, it was really that personal crisis where I drew on everything that I could that I needed to get through it. And it was definitely about both the sort of, you know, the Western knowledge but also the Eastern philosophy and and that realisation about actually how additive and, you know, cumulative and exponential things can be if you put those two things together and don't try to keep them separate.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I just as you were talking there, it evoked memories for me of when I was growing up as a teenager and and like you said, just trying to fit in. And my parents would drag me along to um these, I don't know how to describe them, but they were like congregations of other Indian families going to see uh a Baba or or like a guru or or like a breath um specialist. And they would just sit there and like do breath work and stuff. And I remember just thinking, this is just so random. This doesn't make any sense. This is just all woo woo for me. Like I just want to hang out with my friends, go to the shopping mall instead of and they were just like these breathing practices and it was just so alien to me. And now I find myself going full circle where I do meditation, I do my breath work in the morning and I'm trying to, you know, journaling, all this kind of stuff that has been a rich part of our cultural heritage for millennia. It's it's just so random, isn't it?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, and it's 100% like I get your, you know, that whole journey and it's pretty much exactly the same for me. And I'm sure, well, actually, I was going to say I'm sure it's the same for a lot of people, but I actually still didn't think that. So when I wrote the book, I thought, okay, if you come from an Asian background or if you've been through a divorce or, you know, certain other things might resonate, the book might resonate for you. What I've been really blown away by is how many people who are so different to me, the book resonates with them. That's that's really been eye-opening. Like actually a lot has happened in terms of my realisation since the book came out about, you know, I felt like I was taking a bit of a step by putting science and spirituality together, but actually the response of all of my readers and followers has has helped me to, you know, appreciate that so much more than than just by writing the book.
Dr Rupy: When you wrote the book, who was your archetype? Who were you writing it for? Because I know you do a lot of work with um executives, leaders. Were you trying to, you know, focus it towards those that type of person or was it really like everyone needs to listen and everyone needs to read this?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, it was definitely the everyone needs to read this because up until that point, you know, as you know, you have to to manage a busy schedule. And so I focused for practical reasons on working with leaders and executives and in mostly in financial services. And I'd written a book previously called Neuroscience for Leadership. And so basically the kind of people that got access to that were people that I might coach, people that might come to a, you know, a conference where I was speaking, people that might study at MIT Sloan. Um, and I I really started to think, why should this knowledge just be available to to that small group of people? Neuroscience is for everyone. Everyone's got a brain, everyone experiences emotions, everyone wants to belong. So it should really be for everyone. And that was very much the the driver behind me doing it because I'm not naturally a writer, I'm naturally a speaker, but you know, I find writing really difficult. So I'd always co-written because it was the relationship with the person that like made me, you know, complete it. So writing on my own, I had to have a really good reason to do it, otherwise it would have been very easy to just give up.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, well, I can attest that you write beautifully and I think it's really well laid out as well for anyone coming to this from from whatever background. Um, and and what um I but before we go into the actual content of the book, I wanted to ask about how you towed the line between the sort of Western medical slash um scientific background and marrying that with spirituality. And as I've heard you've say on a previous podcast, um leaving a little bit of room for magic. Um, how how difficult was that um for for you to to start?
Dr Tara Swart: So logically, it was a risk because, you know, I'm a faculty at MIT Sloan, which the T is technology. I mean it's, you know, the most kind of logical, technological university in the world. And um, you know, the kind of people that I work with really respect the neuroscience, but I wouldn't talk to them about things like vision boards or visualisation. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, maybe behind closed doors, but but not, you know, not sort of across the board. And so, and it was only actually on a later podcast after the book came out in the states that someone said to me, didn't you think it was a bit of a risk writing it? Um, but actually MIT were so were and are so supportive. Um, and so it's been like a really beautiful thing to see. And but the funny thing is that in terms of actually marrying the science and the spirituality, when I first sat down over a summer holiday and thought, okay, let's look into these laws of attraction. Um, and see how easily I can use cognitive science to explain them. It was like so easy. I actually was a bit astounded. Um, so there's, you know, there's a bit of variability over what the 12 laws of attraction are, but 10 of them I could immediately see how the way that your brain works sits behind that. Um, and then, you know, then there are a couple of things that I said, there isn't current, you know, modern science that particularly backs this up, but if you've got 10 out of 12, you can either choose to do these two on good faith or just don't do them, but they're not going to harm you kind of thing. So that was that was really eye-opening. Like, wow, this is actually going to be easier to to to explain than than you might have thought. Um, and obviously, you know, things like visualisation and journaling and and gratitude, there's a lot of evidence both from the philosophical side and the brain scanning side for those things as well. Um, yeah, so I think that's that's where I thought there's there's something here. I mean, I'd always thought secretly, I love that kind of stuff, laws of attraction and visualisation, but it was always explained by quantum science and it was just so woo woo sounding. Um, and I thought if it's to do with your thoughts and your subconscious beliefs, well surely that should be explained by neuroscience and and it turned out that it yeah, it could be.
Dr Rupy: Good. Yeah. That's good to hear because yeah, whenever I've heard of the laws of attraction and um and that kind of stuff, it it does kind of uh cloak itself in that the vernacular that's kind of screams of marketing hype and sensationalism. Um, and the way you've set it out in the book, I think, you know, marrying the science and actually, okay, well this is neuroscience, this isn't quantum physics or whatever you want to call it. Um, I think that gives a lot of reassurance to the reader and it will probably encourage a lot more people who have a healthy amount of skepticism as they should, um, considering the environment that we currently live in to to actually pick it up and start putting into action. So the the source itself, what is the source and and and how would you describe your your work thus far to to someone who's come across it for the first time?
Dr Tara Swart: Oh, lovely question. Um, so source obviously has a very strong spiritual connotation. It's a word that's used, um, you know, synonymously with the universe, the soul, the, you know, maybe even God. Um, I have described the source as your brain firing on all cylinders. So basically, the fully integrated power and potential of your brain, like there for you to use. Because it's completely natural and particularly with the sort of schooling system to rely on certain ways of thinking like logic and motivation, let's say. And I've always, you know, like how I said, I I intuitively default to like the neuroscience learnings. I've always kind of thought that, you know, well-regulated emotion but the right amount of it and your intuition and your connection between your brain and your body are are so, so important and maybe actually even more important than logic. Um, but that's not kind of, you know, the narrative in in the society, modern society. Um, so, so what I've done is I've talked about six ways of thinking and I I describe it as the brain agility model. And they are, um, mastering your emotions, knowing yourself, which is the brain body connection, trusting your gut, which is intuition, making good decisions, which is the logical part, understanding what motivates you and keeps you resilient through tough times, and then, um, creativity, but creativity in a completely different sense, not like you're good at art or drama or music, but can you use all of those parts of your brain to create the life that you really want? Yeah, so even the order in which I've put those is to kind of say logic isn't, it's not top of the pile, it's not the first one. I've purposely put emotions and intuition above logic. Um, you know, I do believe that we're we're all the sum of the decisions that we've made throughout our life. Um, but I think I think it's just sad actually how much we've put logic on a pedestal and said that things like emotions and intuition aren't really important or valued. And so I've really tried to turn that on its head, but I've also just said, why wouldn't you use all of these ways of thinking? Um, so, so yeah, that's that's what the source is means to me.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I I love the word the source itself because it just sounds, a, it sounds very attractive, but when it's, you know, explained in the way you do throughout the book with through the lens of science and through the lens of neuroscience in particular, I think it's um just it it it heightens my sort of enthusiasm for doing these things and making it part of my daily routine. Um, and as you were saying, you've been watching some of my Instagram stories, I'm on a bit of a health kick myself at the moment, just trying to kick myself back into my normal routines and actually take some direction as to where I'm going with my career. I think for everyone, lockdown has put a spanner in the works, particularly um for myself because my clinical work actually went up and I was working longer shifts and I was at the hospital the whole time and it was quite draining in terms of um, you know, emotionally draining as well as physically draining. Um, and and now I've kind of got a little bit of space to sort of focus on aspects that I I want to, you know, build on. Um, and I'm particularly interested in the science behind the the law of attraction. Um, you know, a lot of uh people who are familiar with footballers or boxers or, you know, UFC fighters like Conor McGregor is very famous for for, you know, talking about the law of attraction. Um, what is the science behind that and how can we explain that through the the lens of of your your specialty?
Dr Tara Swart: So the science behind the law of attraction is basically that the way that you think has a very big influence on how your life pans out. And underneath the way that you think are subconscious or non-conscious beliefs that you hold. So, and you know, the reason I said subconscious or non-conscious is that part of the trick there is that you're not consciously aware of them. So you believe certain things about yourself, your capability, and that drives your thinking and then that drives the choices that you make in life and your behaviour. And of course, you know, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So there's a couple of things behind that. One is that a survival mechanism in the brain is um called loss aversion, which is that we are geared to avoid threats to our physical safety, you know, through evolution, it was more physical safety, now it's more psychological, social safety. Um, we're geared to protect ourselves against perceived losses two to two and a half times as much as we're geared to try to gain a reward. So if your natural default is, well, I don't want to take too much risk because then something might go wrong, you can already start to see how you're maybe not going to get everything in life that you could. If you can override that, if you understand that, you know, I'm safe, I have a roof over my head, I I have enough food, I have, you know, some good meaningful relationships. What else could I try to do with my brain? What else, what other opportunities could I try to grasp? How can I grow and expand, you know, the possibilities for my life? That's a very fundamental part of the laws of attraction. So I call it thinking abundantly rather than thinking in terms of lack or scarcity. And and it is a choice. Um, and I feel that I can say that with authority, not just because I'm a neuroscientist, but because I experienced a, you know, significant personal and professional disruption and that's where I learned that you can make that choice. You can either say that everything's gone wrong and it's going to be terrible and your life will never be the same again. But, you know, what you learn is your life won't be the same again, but it could actually be a lot better. Um, so it's that kind of thinking. And then carrying on from that from abundance is manifestation. So that's actually doing something about making those things come true in your life. So it's, you know, it's not enough to fantasise about the the perfect life that you want. You you have to be doing something every day, even if it's journaling or a, you know, a positive affirmation or visualising a, you know, an ideal future, but preferably also some practical things, um, to to, you know, to create the ideal outcome. And and, you know, I love that you mentioned it again, but I think it's very important to say that on that journey myself, at first it was very focused on, okay, what do I want to achieve? How do I want my life to look and doing things to make that happen? But it got to the point where this process, you know, just worked so well that I was like, be careful what you wish for because it's it's, you know, it's sort of gathering momentum and all coming true. And that's when I thought, I need to really to realise that I don't know every possibility that's out there. And so being open to that that magic, open to that sort of, you know, thing that could pop up that you haven't planned is also a really important part of it. And then there's a lot more more to it. Um, like patience is part of the process because these things don't happen overnight. And you know, there's a correlation to the neural pathways that are being overwritten or being built up because you're choosing to think differently and act differently that just takes a bit of time to actually, you know, come to a tipping point where you won't settle for something that's not good enough for you and you're, you know, you're push the boundaries and and sort of, you know, try to to to grow, you know, more possibility. And so just on that point of talking about overwriting neural pathways, I just want to preface that from childhood, we start laying down neural pathways that become these subconscious beliefs. And so whether it's through repetition or feedback or emotional intensity, these thoughts and beliefs get laid down. And then we see life through that perspective and we just believe those things to be true and we never question it. And the really exciting thing that's come from neuroscience research in the last two decades is neuroplasticity, which is how much the brain can change even in adulthood. And so from my point of view, um, neuroplasticity is the really concrete scientific thing that sits under the law of attraction. That's that's what tells us that yes, I can change the way that I think, I can change what I believe and that will result in different real world outcomes to what would have happened if I carried on the way that I was.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, because this is a fairly new phenomenon. We perhaps even uh when I was at medical school, you would think that, you know, uh our thinking is pretty concrete. We can't really uh train our neural pathways, let alone create new connections. But this kind of crosses over into some of the concepts that you've discussed in your book like neuroplasticity and um brain agility. Could you discuss brain agility and how that relates to neuroplasticity and and and how we how we train that?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so brain agility is really being able to move between different ways of thinking. And and understanding in a snapshot that you do have preferences because you've been thinking in a certain way for a very long time. And, you know, like I said, most commonly, logic is a big part of that because of the schooling system. But, you know, for some people, like me, I would say that I have always kind of lived and died by my intuition. So, um, and then and journaling was a very good way of honing that even further. And and having the confidence to say, okay, that might not make sense logically, but I feel that it's the right thing for me. And, you know, that was partly behind choosing to write a book where, you know, as a as a scientist, you're going to start talking about spirituality. Um, it was definitely a felt thing that that's what I was going to do and, you know, whatever the outcome was, I would, you know, manage that and make it work. So, so brain agility is basically about being able to make a decision that is based on logic, but is also based on intuition and, you know, what you're feeling in your body, what you're feeling emotionally, um, understanding what might be motivating you to do that, having the resilience to keep going even if, you know, it's it's tough and it's challenging. Um, and then that little bit of thinking outside of the box as well. And so how neuroplasticity relates to that is a lot of people say, well, I'm just a logical person. Um, you know, I'm not very empathic. I don't really know what you mean when you say, what's your gut telling you? Um, and I was told at school that I'm not good at drawing, so I'm definitely not creative. And it's about saying, actually, you can build up those pathways that correlate to those ways of thinking just like you would learn a language. Um, so I'm not going to say it's easy because it pretty much is like learning a language. So, um, you know, if you had to learn a new language now, just think about how long that would take you and how much effort it would take. It's the same if you're going to build up emotional intelligence or build up access to your intuition or or find ways to express your creativity. Um, but it's absolutely possible.
Dr Rupy: I love that analogy. I think that's so um that's so important to understand because I think a lot of people will do a few meditation sessions or a few journaling sessions and and it was not for me, it didn't work sort of thing without really understanding the amount of time and effort it takes and to compare it to learning like a a language, I think it's brilliant. I also think it's very empowering for people because I think when we look at things that um are external to the self, so exercising, for example, or changing your diet, these intuitively seem like logical things to be able to do to change your well-being or your mental health, etc. But when it comes to um intuition and the ability to exercise different thought patterns, I think the prevailing view even now is, well, this is how I am, this is I'm a product of my childhood or what my teachers taught me or the way my brain works and this is what I'm why to do. Ergo, I can't change that. But but in your book, you actually talk about exercising intuition um and and and you've given us a whole bunch of different action points as well to to to do that. Could we talk a little bit about exercising intuition, what what you feel the most effective tools are that you've used in your in your professional career?
Dr Tara Swart: Um, we're so on the same wavelength because you're you actually said a few things I was thinking, oh yeah, I must mention this and I must mention that. And um, so particularly you talked about exercise and diet and I know that, you know, the theme of your podcast is like, you know, eating for reverse aging or eating for this reason or that reason. And so I did want to specifically say that um, yeah, great, go ahead and do those physical things first because they will promote your neuroplasticity and then you'll feel more able to take on a bigger challenge like intuition or something. So aerobic exercise contributes to um neuroplasticity through connecting up existing neurons through synapses, but also through something called neurogenesis, which is the growth of embryonic nerve cells into fully formed nerve cells. Um, calorie restriction through um intermittent fasting or time restricted fasting also contributes to neuroplasticity. And eating foods with dark skin, so like blueberries, blackberries, black beans, dark chocolate, um that also promotes neuroplasticity. So I wanted to get those things in because I know that's a big theme for you. Um, so if you start doing all of those good things, you're feeding your brain with the glucose and the oxygen and the antioxidants and all of that stuff that it needs to start growing and changing. And then, let's say that you don't have a regular journaling practice, start journaling. That's a new activity for you. Novelty also stimulates your brain to um to grow and change. The a real game changer for me was reading back over my journal. So, you know, journaling is great because it gets rid of stuff from your mind and um, you know, it helps you to sort out your thoughts and everything. But for a very long time, I would write in a journal, but I wouldn't really read back over it. And the way that I realised how much there was to learn from that was that I go to um to Boston twice a year to teach at MIT. And I was, you know, and I I really kind of I'm obsessed with sleep, so I hate being jet lagged and I'm always, you know, trying to like find ways to deal with that as well as possible. Um, so I take a lot of supplements with me when I travel. And I was getting um like little muscular twitches. And so I thought, oh, I wonder what I wrote in my journal when I was here six months ago. And I looked in my journal and I'd written, I'm getting these, you know, restless legs and these little muscular twitches. Um, and then I realised that the stress of travel, I needed to up my dose of magnesium, which is, you know, when you're low in magnesium, you get the twitchy eyelid and you get little muscle twitches in your body. And then I thought, okay, I've identified a physical a story here, something that I wrote about six months ago that's happening again and I'm I've been able to make a change based on that. What's been going on emotionally? What's been going on, you know, in terms of intuition? And then I started reading stories of, okay, I've got this decision to make, I've got a dilemma. Logically, I should do X, but my gut tells me I should do Y. And I could start to see that every time I went with my gut, I got a really good outcome. And so that was a real game changer and I want everyone to know about that. So I'm just so happy to be able to explain that on this podcast. So journaling and looking back over it. Um, I think I do think things have changed and I think society, like even in business, I remember like six, seven years ago when I first started teaching at MIT, someone stood up in class and said, well, you know, I'm not going to make a hire or fire decision on my gut, am I? Obviously, I've got to make that logically. And a few people turned around and were like, no, I would I would make that from my gut. Yeah. And um, you know, it tended to be the more wise, experienced older leaders that would say that. And over the last six or seven years, I've definitely heard people say more that those, you know, when it comes to people decisions and things that your gut instinct is actually really important. So I think respecting it, you know, if you think intuition is intangible and woo woo, you're not going to do it, are you? So, you know, understanding some of the science of how it works, I think really helps. And so, so that science is basically the way that we lay down information in our neural pathways is through a process called Hebbian learning, which is named after a neuroscientist called Donald Hebb. And so we keep in the sort of front of our mind, our working memory, the things that we need to do to live our life and do our job today, this week, this year. Um, I already mentioned those more subconscious thoughts and beliefs which have been laid down for longer, which are kind of, you know, deeper in the brain. Um, and we're not as aware of them. And of course, you can't remember everything that you've experienced in your whole life, but we we know now that there's an enormous connection between the nerves in the gut and the nerves in the limbic part of the brain, which is the intuitive part of the brain. And so we believe that that wisdom, the of the life lessons that you've picked up is stored deeper in the spinal cord and the gut neurons and perhaps even in the neurons that go throughout your entire body. So when you get that gut instinct, you're actually accessing, it's pattern recognition, but you're accessing wisdom that you've experienced in your life but you don't consciously remember.
Dr Rupy: Wow. I that is fascinating. The fact that those experiences are are entrenched in your nervous system. That has blown my mind. And we're definitely on the same wavelength because I I really wanted to ask you about the gut microbiota connection actually and how that has an impact on, you know, your thinking, your thought uh patterns and and whether that can have a demonstrable impact um on uh on intuition and and the other concepts in your book.
Dr Tara Swart: Well, that's actually like such a cool question because when I was writing the book, I was going to do two separate chapters, one on intuition and one on gut health. And then it felt radical at the time, but I thought, I'm going to put those together in one chapter. And I didn't know the latest research on the psychobiotics and stuff at that point. I mean, I I mentioned it a little bit in the book, but that field has grown massively in the last couple of years. Um, but by the time the book came out, it was like, yeah, of course those two things go together. Like, can you imagine if I'd separated them? Um, and since then, there's even more research. So we've known for a long time about the vagus nerve and then just, you know, all the gut neurons. Um, now we know that apart from that neural connection between the gut and the brain, the gut bacteria separately signal through what you'll know as cytokine transmission, which is chemical messengers in the blood. Um, to so the bacteria communicate to the gut neurons and also directly to the brain through these chemical messages in the blood. So it's actually a three-way communication. And so where we've talked about the quality and diversity of your gut microbiome is so important, we now know that it's way more important than we ever thought before. And even that there are strains of healthy bacteria that particularly have an impact on things like stress, anxiety, insomnia, and have even when given in combination with antidepressants allowed people to reduce the dose of their antidepressant medication or even come off their antidepressant medication. There's a very recent study that's just being done now at King's, um, on using probiotics to treat people with Parkinson's disease. So this gut-brain connection thing is, I mean, it's just going to explode. It's so exciting for people like us to, you know, to see that happen in our lifetime. Definitely. Um, and it's going to have really big implications for the health of of everyone in the world, basically.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I I know that you personally take uh, well, you you state in your book that you take um some probiotics um when you travel because you know about the impact of uh travel, sleep disruption on the gut microbiota. It's something that I personally do. Um, is that something you you still practice at the moment and is that something you think should become the norm? Obviously, taking into account, you know, um people need to see their own clinicians and, you know, this isn't uh to be taken as medical advice. Um, but yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so I was travelling so much that I was, you know, I was getting a course of probiotics like more than, you know, I think, you know, nutritionists and dietitians generally say four to six times a year you should take them even if you're not travelling. So I I was getting way more than that just because I was travelling. Interestingly, during lockdown, because and again, this comes back to knowing my brain and understanding about neuroscience, this unprecedented uncertainty that we're going through is causing a chronic low-grade stress, borderline, you know, depression, anxiety for everyone. So I actually did a 12-week course of probiotics at the beginning of lockdown because I knew that the stress was going to affect my gut microbiome. Gotcha. Um, after 12 weeks, I thought, well, you know, that's usually the longest recommended course, so I'll take a break. And very quickly, I just had that gut feeling, no pun intended, that that we should keep taking it, you know, so at home we are basically constantly taking probiotics at the moment. Um, there's a beneficial yeast called Saccharomyces boulardii, no particular brand, um, that is the one that's best for travel. Um, but actually having said that I am taking them, you know, I'm kind of obsessed with, you know, boosting every sort of area of my health, but I I actually advise people to try to get them from natural sources. So the sauerkraut, the kimchi, the kefir, the kombucha. Um, and, you know, I've been trying to to stock those in the fridge, but it's just it's a bit more hit and miss with those things. So I feel like better to actually take a supplement at the moment.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I um I personally don't take a probiotic regularly every single day, but I am considering doing some self-experimentation for one of a better word, um and trying different strains um uh to see what impact it has on my mood and stuff. And obviously, it's quite hard to disentangle the placebo effect, I guess, of taking a supplement unblinded. Um, and uh and, you know, monitoring what that has. But um, but yeah, no, I I think it's really important to to talk about these things because otherwise people are in the in the dark about whether they should be taking it or what other people take as well. And and, you know, I think and especially given the backdrop of the research looking at psychobiotics, which for the listeners, um, are I mean a lot of the work I think is coming out of the University of Cork with John Cryan's research centre. Um, but it's where you take uh live probiotics or maybe even synbiotics with a combination of pro and pre. And they are uh demonstrating some impact on uh measures of mental health uh and quality depression scores and and and that kind of stuff, which is super interesting, but very much in its infancy at the moment.
Dr Tara Swart: I just interviewed Scott Anderson who wrote the Psychobiotic Revolution based on John Cryan's research. Epic. Um, for my MIT course. And um, because I was just, you know, so blown away by that book. And yeah, he actually also said he recommends uh using natural sources rather than actually necessarily taking a probiotic. Fascinating. Um, but I also wanted to say to you because you said who knows if it's the placebo effect. Placebo effect is still an effect. Yes. Because it's mind over matter. It's, you know, if your if your brain feels better because you've taken something, why why would you withhold that from yourself? Like if you feel better, then take it, you know.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean if it's safe and and potentially effective, then the pragmatism in me is like, well, yeah, exactly. I I I completely agree with that. I want to tell you about this amazing experiment because it because it touches upon this placebo effect, mind over matter stuff. Um, it was it's there's a book called Counterclockwise that talks about it and then there was a BBC show ages decades ago called The Young Ones. But the actual experiment, original experiment was taking groups of people in their 80s and there was a control group who just carried on living like normal. And then there was a and this was done over a one week period. There was a group who reminisced about being in their 60s for a week. And then there was a group who were taken to homes that were retrofitted to look like their home had looked 20 years ago. If they didn't have the same walking aids or visual aids 20 years ago, they were taken away for a week. Um, they had photos of themselves looking younger in these homes. And when, so they agreed to be in the experiment, they got driven to these homes, you know, they'd packed a suitcase for a week. And when they got there, the people were like, okay, take your suitcase up to your bedroom. And there were these little old ladies in their 80s saying, I can't carry that suitcase up, you know, a flight of stairs. And they were like, this is the experiment. So obviously people managed. And after a week, there were significant improvements in visual acuity and musculoskeletal coordination in the group that lived in a house that, you know, looked like their house did 20 years ago. But there were also some improvements in the reminiscing group.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. That is incredible. So it really does demonstrate the impact and this will go on to the other things that I wanted to talk to you about about curating your environment to be conducive to what you want to achieve. Um, and and this reminds me because it's been a while since I read your book, but I think there was another similar experiment that you mentioned where people did exercise versus people who just thought about doing exercise and the people who just thought about exercise actually had some improvements in muscle strength or conditioning.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The power of the mind is incredible. But um, so with that in mind with, you know, uh creating a positive environment for yourself, what are the things that you go into with clients and and things that you've spoken about in your book that um basically create that positive energy that allows you to manifest um your your your what what you're aiming for?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I'll really go back to the basics here, which um, you know, I sort of say as rest, fuel, hydrate, oxygenate and simplify. And so that helps you to create the conditions for success in your body and in the environment around you, so everything that you see and hear. Um, so basically sufficient length and quality of sleep. And we know now that going to bed and waking up at the same time has an additional benefit. It's not just about getting eight hours. Um, obviously fueling your brain with, you know, nutrition dense foods and we've spoken a bit uh about specific ones for neuroplasticity. Um, you know, and I particularly myself and with my clients focus on eating for your brain first, because there are all sorts of different reasons to eat for health, for building muscles, for losing weight, for um what's delicious, you know, but I focus on the brain first idea. And because actually your brain is is a tiny part of your body, but it's the most metabolically active organ in the body. It uses up about a quarter of what we eat. Um, hydration, you know, it's an obvious one, but still so many people don't really, you know, do enough of it. Um, ideally you're supposed to drink half a litre of water for every 15 kilos of your body weight per day. Um, I always say you wouldn't drive your car to work and, you know, expect it to run fine if you hadn't, you know, topped up the oil and the water, but you think you can go all day without drinking any water. Um, oxygenation, we also sort of mentioned in, you know, in terms of neuroplasticity, but that's it's exercise and not being sedentary, but it's also actually breathing properly because stressed people exhibit shallow breathing or even breath holding. Um, you know, like when you sort of you realise that you've been reading an email or something and you've just held your breath for a little time. So it's actually just breathe. Um, and then the simplification part is partly about mindfulness, but it's also about things like decluttering your environment, decluttering your desktop, um, you know, not having back-to-back meetings with no break. So it's basically about just, you know, keeping the the physical and the digital environment, um, as as clean and simple as possible. And, you know, I was thinking about your theme of eating for various reasons. And I was thinking from a neuroscience point of view, what you imbibe is not just what you eat and drink, it's the information that you allow access to your brain. So, um, and, you know, I mean, there's a whole different topic, you know, on diversity, but there are things like microaggressions, which is, you know, even if someone says to you, oh, Rupy, are you nervous about doing this podcast? That puts into your mind that you should maybe you should be nervous, you know, and so it's about really like protecting yourself from all that kind of stuff as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, I I don't know what your thoughts are on social media, but I I've started taking regular breaks from it for an extended period of time, um, definitely during the weekends, but I want to try and do it mid-week as well and just run an experiment myself to see how I feel about that. Um, uh, because I I feel that there's a lot of uh discontentment in myself and from what I've uh experienced by talking to other people who spend a lot of time on social media, um, by just the the one little negativity that you'll find on or across your feed. And that and that's why I I'm quite encouraging of people to really um be careful about what and who they follow because particularly Instagram now has become quite a toxic environment, I feel. Um, with images and because images are so powerful because we're such visual beings, um, it it can be just as detrimental if not more than something like Twitter or, you know, the news. I mean, I I I don't watch the news anymore. I don't even have a TV.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I mean, I haven't been watching the news for quite a long time, like, you know, in a way, I do know what's going on in the world and I do care very much about what's going on in the world, but I don't need to be bombarded with the same information constantly and it's always bad news as well. Um, I've actually been doing digital detoxes for at least 12 years and I've done up to a month. Oh, awesome. Um, I remember when I first put an out of office notice on when I was starting up my business that said, I will not be checking emails until the 15th of January. Someone actually said to me, how how can you run a business like that? Um, and then the next year they were like, oh, where are you going for your digital detox? You know, people respect it, but and more people are doing it now. The biggest thing I learned by doing that is the amount of time and mental space you have when you're not on your phone the whole time is, I mean, it's frightening. Yeah. It makes you realise how much you are sucked into that device all the time. Wow. Um, and when you're not doing that, you just feel like you have so much time, so much mental clarity, you start to get creative ideas, you start to, you know, think differently. Um, so yeah, I really recommend it if if possible, you know, how how other people can do it for how long or
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's definitely inspired me to do it for a month now. I mean, I I thought like taking a week off at a time was uh was quite an achievement, but you've put me to shame with that.
Dr Tara Swart: I mean, I've actually sort of gone backwards because now I tend to do only like two weeks, it sort of went to three weeks and then two weeks. Um, but Christmas and New Year is a very good time to do it because generally things are sort of closed down more anyway. So
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Build yourself up to that.
Dr Rupy: I'll build up myself. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I wanted to talk a bit about um your executive executive coaching at the moment. The the types of clients that you come across or who come across you, um, but also the the process by which you coach people. Is it mirrored by what's in your book or or do you have a like a a pattern or a sort of a process by which you um you you take on different people considering their unique needs?
Dr Tara Swart: Um, so I did do a formal coach training um about 13 years ago. But then, you know, coaching is very like, you know, you're not supposed to have an agenda for the client. It's very much about open questions and guiding them. But then, you know, that was around the time of the global financial crisis. We're now in another crisis and we're pretty much, you know, I'd say over the last 13 years bouncing from one crisis to another, whether it's political or, you know, psychosocial. So I realised that withholding my neuroscience knowledge from that process was not actually good. So I tend to be a bit more directive around things like sleep and diet and exercise and mindfulness. Um, but I've always said and, you know, and I said this before it was like really acceptable to say it that it's an intuitive process. You know, when people say, what's going to happen in the coaching? How's it going to work? I can say it's six sessions of one and a half hours that, you know, approximately monthly, but I can't tell you what's going to happen. Um, and coaching often turns very often turns out to be about something completely different to what the person presented with and, you know, as a doctor, you'll be a bit familiar with that idea. Um, and, you know, it's it's basically to my intention for it is that it should be transformational for the person. So I'll go wherever we have to go, you know, with them to do that. So it's really, it's definitely based on a neuroscience framework from my point of view, but it's definitely intuitive. Um, so I got a lot of pushback when I left medicine to become a coach. From who? Your your colleagues, your parents, your family? Everyone. All of them. Yeah. Um, and I remember this somebody, I can't even remember who it was now, said, oh, well, maybe you could coach in the NHS. I suppose that would make sense. And I was like, no, if I'm going to stay in the NHS, I want to be a doctor. I, you know, I sort of I took that as a challenge and I was like, okay, what's the most opposite thing to the NHS that I can think of? And so I thought financial services and also there were a lot of stressed people in financial services around 2008, 2009. Um, so a former psychiatrist kind of actually really made sense. Um, so I started working a lot with banks. They were having a lot of stress-induced heart attacks on the trading floors and things like that. So it really was kind of relevant to my previous career. Um, and then I opened it up and I've worked with lawyers and engineers and, you know, even sort of like sometimes in the creative industries. But now because and I know that you're, you know, being so intentional now about what work you want to do and how you want to do it. Because I started then doing lots of speaking and lots of mental resilience programs and I joined the university in America, I, you know, I don't want to stretch myself in too many directions because I'm very aware of my resilience. So now I really only have like a handful of clients and they're they're mostly in hedge funds and private equity. Um, so it's really about using your brain to get that edge, that competitive advantage to really like be the best that you can be. Um, and at the same sort of time that I realised I can't really keep coaching as many people as I was, that's was one of the motivations for writing the book to really like release that information out to, you know, a wider group of people as well.
Dr Rupy: Mm, yeah. I mean, and I can totally see that because you've made it very approachable and, you know, the the different exercises. I'm certainly going to start doing a lot more of. I wanted to tell you about something actually. So I uh I I've done two things over the last couple of years. So when I moved to Australia in 2014, I started doing a voice diary. Um, and prior to that, the only time I'd done diarising or or journaling was when I was a kid and I never read them back. And if I did read them back, I'd probably cringe because I was like a teenager. And um, but uh I do voice journaling every week. So I basically uh talk into my voice memo uh and it'll be like week 200 odd, whatever. And I just talk about my emotions, I talk about my feelings, I talk about um, you know, what's gone on that week. Um, but I think I'm going to transition into actual writing as you've put in your book because I think it there's a bit more of a sort of touch point around it. It makes it a little bit more literal, the fact that you have to write it out rather than just talk. But I wanted to to know about the differences between that and and the voices. And also, I vision board. So I I I I do, I've started doing a vision board over the last year, but I've done it digitally and I know you talk about actually making it physical, like putting it onto a sheet of A4 or a sheet of a bigger sheet if you if you can and and actually taking clippings of magazines. Is there a difference between those two ways of doing things? Like doing things digitally versus actually having a a tactile um um exercise?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I actually do mine digitally as well now, but a little bit like, I'll use an analogy here, like with something like meditation, if you have a good foundational practice, then you can do it on the fly. I can do it on the tube, I can do it on a plane, I can not do it for a few days and then do it and still, you know, I know what it does for me. And so I would still say that if you're starting, I would prefer you to make it by hand. The whole tactile, visual, kind of, you know, and moving it around and sort of having something in your room that there's definitely, I would say that there's definitely something to that. And then once you really know how it works and you're very familiar with it, I think it's fine to do it digitally. Um, and then with your voice diary, I actually love that idea and I think it's brilliant that you've been doing it for so long. Yeah. I mean, from the sort of stress release point of view, either speaking out loud or writing it down does reduce levels of the stress hormone cortisol. But I think it would be nice for you to try just to try to do writing because because of that thing I said about rereading it, when you when you write something down and then you read it maybe out loud, then you're actually stimulating several parts of your brain because you're using the part of your brain that writes, you're using the part of your brain that reads, you're using the part of your brain that articulates speech and then you're hearing your own voice going back into your brain through your ears. So it's kind of, I do think maybe it's more impactful, but I actually love the voice diary idea. And I know that in um people who experience trauma after the big tsunami, that therapists were using a lot of video diaries to help people to to manage that. So Interesting. Yeah, I think there's all sorts, but it's good to try them all and see what works for you or just see what if you get different benefits from them.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm definitely going to do that. I have a challenge for you. I've literally just started, I've just started a new highlight on my Instagram which is action board inspiration. Okay. And so I've asked people to send in pictures. So I want you to send me a picture when you've finished your vision board, like your, you know, the new stuff that you're thinking about.
Dr Rupy: Sure, definitely, definitely. I put I I I know that you you you say not to use words and stuff, but I sometimes I put words on mine, um, but I I I can remove those.
Dr Tara Swart: No, I sometimes put words on mine too.
Dr Rupy: Oh, really? Okay, great. All right.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, it should just be like as the visual aspect is really powerful. Yeah. But if a phrase really speaks to you, then of course you should put it on there.
Dr Rupy: Okay, great, great. I'll I'll definitely share that with you. I've got a few more questions, um, just in the context of uh what you're going to be doing going on to the future. But uh myself uh and actually my my colleagues, um, so I work in A&E and and general practice. Um, and we're all concerned, um, one on on one side of things about, you know, all the missed cancer diagnoses, all the uh things that are going to be, you know, crippling the NHS in terms of waiting list for elective surgery, etc, etc, and the number of people with pain. But also, um, this avalanche of mental health uh uh problems that are going to be, you know, landing on the NHS's front doorstep, I guess, over the next couple of months or years to come, I would say, when the furlough scheme ends, when um people lose their jobs as inevitably is going to happen with an impending financial crisis. What what things, what tips would you give people today to prepare them for what could be happening in the future? And I don't want to, I know I've just prefaced everything with like everything's going to be bad in the future, so I probably shouldn't have said that, but um, but yeah, what what kind of things can we do today to to help us?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, no, I definitely feel the same as you. I'm very, very concerned about people's mental health. Um, I did a podcast recently with Rangan Chatterjee, who's another one of my friends. Yeah. And and I specifically said I want to talk about mental health crisis versus spiritual revolution. So again, there's a choice. You know, at the beginning of of this recording, I said, we have more choices sometimes than we believe. And obviously, you know, a serious mental health illness is not a choice. But if you're if it's about choosing, can I work on myself spiritually, emotionally, mentally, um, rather than sort of get into a slump of demotivation, then that's more within someone's hands. Um, so yeah, so I want I want to say there's two possible outcomes, but I am like you very, very concerned about what's going to come out of this, um, mentally. So one of the things, so I have had quite a few people write to me basically saying, my job is now defunct, so I can't put that on a on a on an action board. I actually call them action boards because it's, you know, you've got to do something as well, not just put the. Um, and so what I've said to those people on DM is create, use metaphorical images to create the feeling that you'd like to have in your life, even if it can't be, you can't be, you know, tangible about a particular job or a particular, you know, family setup or house or whatever. So that's one thing is more like, how do I want my life to to be and feel and, you know, sort of more metaphorical. The the other thing that I was also was on my mind earlier when we were speaking and I think this is a great time to say it is that in terms of stress responses, there are two ways that stress works in the body. So there's either the fright flight fight reaction, which is that there's a threat to you and it has, you know, you need to escape from it. It's frightening, it's scary, you release adrenaline and cortisol and that's not good for you. But there's also a challenge response to certain stresses, which is more like I rise to meet the challenge. Um, and that can be a very important distinction in terms of how we feel mentally. And the one factor that distinguishes whether you tend to fall into, you know, this category or that one is whether you believe that you have the internal resources to meet a challenge. And so in the book, one of the things I spoke about was gratitude lists. And what I also learned over the journey of doing the practice was that at first it was quite external things like my friends, my family, my ability to travel, um, you know, and sometimes it would be things like my health, my knowledge, my creativity, but not so much. And then what I realised over time was that if you start writing down the internal resources that you have, what that does to your brain is it really reinforces and reminds you that if something bad happens, I've got resources in me to deal with that. I don't have to, I mean, you know, asking for help is is actually a good thing. So that could be on the list, you know, I can I have people I can ask for help or I'm not too proud to ask for help. But but kind of because everything's so uncertain and unpredictable now, it's difficult to know, you know, is there going to be another type of illness, like and could it be something completely different to what we're experiencing now and how will we deal with that? You can't predict or control those things, but you can build up your resilience, you can build up your ability to cope with change and adversity. And when you do that and you believe that that's true and you have that, because actually one of the biggest things I learned when I got divorced and changed career and moved countries all at the same time, was I really appreciated then how determined I am. And, you know, that's a word that really came up for me at that time. And so now looking back, I think, okay, you know, anything could happen, bad things could happen, but I really know now that I'm determined and that's going to help me like whenever the next thing happens, whatever it is. Um, and, you know, maybe in a different crisis, I'll I'll learn something else about myself. And um, you know, you can also maybe learn some some, you know, not so good things about yourself, but that's still an opportunity to, you know, to to do something about that and look at yourself differently. So I would say those two things. I would say, try to create the feeling that you want because there's less certainty around actual things that you might get. Um, and focus on building up your awareness of your own internal resources.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I I that's super helpful and it it kind of reaffirms some other stuff that I try to do as often as possible, which is visualisations where I um it's almost like part of my meditation in the evenings where I visualise not what is happening in five years from now or 10 years from now, not what I want to achieve, but how I feel when everything has been achieved. Um, so it's, you know, what does my body feel like? Is it healthy? Do I feel energetic? Do I feel vibrant? Do I feel well rested? All these different uh attributes of what the future looks like rather than the physicality of what my office looks like or whether I have an office or not or, you know, the smell of the hospital when I go in, those sorts of things. Um, I think that's super helpful for people to to to really become uh connected with. I I want to ask you about what's on your action board at the moment as well. I'm super, super interested. I don't know whether you can share everything, but yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, I have actually made some changes to it recently and I've also started cutting out some images and just I've just got them on a glass table at the moment, which is very much, so that the the tangible physical one is very much about a feeling and I think it started at the beginning of lockdown because, you know, real like very strong values for me are freedom and choice and and travel. Um, you know, I said I feel like a citizen of the universe, so obviously that is severely compromised at the moment. So the images are very colourful, there's a lot of like nature images, um, there's kind of, it's it's definitely about me missing travel because it's kind, you know, it's very sort of like all sorts of different cultures are represented and stuff. And then I've got an image at the top which is, looks like the Himalayas, I'm not sure if it is, that has a couple standing on it, so that's about me and my husband. Um, and then just like some animals that I liked and things like that. So that's more the feeling one, that's the kind of like, but the one um from the beginning of the year is very much about the book. Um, and the the paperback came out here at the beginning of the UK, but it's coming out in the US in November. I've actually got 36 international translations, so it's really about, yeah. Um, you know, the the book kind of like growing and certain territories. So like the US is very important to me, so that's on there. Um, and and then the the thing that's on there that's my like real like deep desire is um to have like a TV version of the book. So, Fab. you know, either either a sort of documentary or a a TV series where I would actually go and like meet people and speak to people who've used the practices and like show these stories of how people's lives have changed. That's that's the big dream.
Dr Rupy: Oh my god, that would be amazing. I could so see that on something like Netflix or, you know, like a four or six part series where you meet different people and they've put into action things in the book and then you go into the neuroscience behind it. That would be brilliant. I I can't wait for you to make that. That's awesome. I want you to be on it now that I've met you because you're like embodying so many of these.
Dr Rupy: I could be one of the patients. Yeah. That's great. Oh, I can so see that happening, Tara. And um, thank you so much for writing the book, honestly, and and sharing your wisdom. It's brilliant. I think it's, you know, affirmed a lot of what people thought intuitively, quite honestly, about, you know, how they've manifested things in their life or how they've got over things. Um, it's honestly fantastic. And um, and the fact that you put a Terminator quote in one of your chapter titles, honestly, so much respect for that. It's brilliant.
Dr Tara Swart: I'm actually obsessed, I'm obsessed with the whole series. I have been since I was a kid and I first watched it. Um, but it, you know, there was something very profound in the latest one, um, in Dark Fate where Arnie says, I used to think that my biggest strength was that I didn't have emotion, but now I realise that that's my biggest weakness. And so, you know, that film didn't exist when I wrote the book, but I love that quote. So if I could have had, you know, put that in it, I would have as well.
Dr Rupy: Well, in in the next edition, I'm sure there're going to be multiple editions of this. Make sure you put that in. That's brilliant.
