Dr Will B: There are people who come forward and they say, I don't feel well. And I'm struggling with this food. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that because it's real. It's not that there's something wrong with you in the sense that your choices, it's more so that it's my responsibility, if I'm going to ask you to come along for this ride, to create a framework and a path where anyone can take this journey and thrive. And that's going to be a personalised journey. You're you're going to have to find what works for you.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine, and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: I have spoken to thousands of people about nutritional medicine in clinic. In most part, people who optimise their plates to contain more fibre, mostly plants and variety, tend to thrive. They feel better, lighter, happier, and in many cases, it sparks a new zest for life. The trick is helping people maintain a habit of eating well consistently, which, by the way, is why I developed my app. But for the minority of people, the opposite is true. Whatever healthy items they include in their diet, their body reacts negatively. It can set them up for a life of restriction, anxiety around eating a diverse collection of ingredients, and a digestive system that is intolerant to many foods. If this is you, you're not alone, and there are solutions. It doesn't require a barrage of investigations, intolerance tests, and supplements, but it does require motivation and persistence. But I'm here to tell you, and my guest today, that it is possible. Dr Will, also known affectionately as Dr B, is a gastroenterologist and the New York Times bestselling author of Fibre Fuelled and the Fibre Fuelled Cookbook. He sits on the scientific advisory board of Zoe, has authored more than 20 articles published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, and you'll find him on social media as The Gut Health MD and his website theplantfedgut.com. This is a long episode, so for those of you who want the TLDR, the too long didn't read or too long didn't listen, the TLDL, fibre is super important, as you know, if you're a long-time listener. It has connections with the immune system, mental health, cognition, heart health, inflammation. Everyone's gut is unique, and the diverse diet with mostly plants is a great starting point. However, as we discussed, many people have gut microbe imbalances that prevent them from eating a diversity of foods, and particularly foods that are high in fibre and are paradoxically great for the gut. You might find people trying to eat lentils and beans and whole grains and inexplicably, well, as you'll find out today, there is an explanation, they feel more bloated, they feel worse, they feel tired and lethargic. This isn't a great outcome for them. This happens to be many people. And a strategy for improving your gut's adaptability and ultimately creating a flexible eating method that allows you to eat tons of food is to, first, keep a food diary. This will enable you to identify certain triggers. Second, rule out other causes. With a practitioner, identify whether your symptoms could be related to things like gallbladder dysfunction or even constipation. And third, this requires a lot of work and some people will definitely require a little extra help with this, is to restrict any items that you feel might be triggering you. These can also include things like histamine foods and FODMAPs. Observe your symptoms as you are restricting them over at least two to four weeks, and then gradually reintroduce. So this is the restrict, observe, reintroduce protocol. You also want to consider the wider impact of lifestyle on your gut. As you know, if you're a long-term listener, the gut has a connection to the brain, the brain has a connection to your gut. How you move your body will also have an impact on your digestive system, as well as things like sleep and stress. So, with that in mind, this is a long episode, but I feel that you're going to get a lot of benefit from it. And I'm a really big fan of the Fibre Fuelled Cookbook. I think it's a fantastic resource for people, and it turns out that it's a bit of a protocol, as Dr B talks about later on today in the episode. If you're interested in this week's topic, you're definitely going to want to subscribe to the free Eat, Listen, Read newsletter. Every week, I share a recipe, something like the aubergine and walnut ragu that I shared very recently. It could be something on philosophy, it could be a commencement speech. It'll be something that will make you think slightly differently, and it is short enough to not disturb your week. You'll absolutely love it, and we've had some incredible feedback from the over 50,000 people that receive this email every single week. For now, onto the podcast.
Dr Rupy: Will, thank you so much for joining the show. Super, super stoked to have you here. Um, and apologies, uh, uh, for last time as well, where we had it booked in. Uh, listeners won't know this, but I sent you a voice note, uh, I think it was like the day before, and I was like, hey man, I'm really sorry to do this, but it's just before my wedding. It's proper crazy right now. Can we please reschedule? And you were so sweet about it. So, thank you so much. I really, I really do appreciate that.
Dr Will B: I mean, first of all, it's a pleasure to be here. I feel like we're old friends even though we're just kind of in some ways getting to know each other, but you know, getting married, it's a special, that's a one of the most special days of your life. And you'll always remember that day. You'll always remember those moments and it's one of the few times that you bring together everyone that loves you. So it's, it's a cool thing and, um, you know, it's to me, the only one that was bigger in my life was the day that my children were born. That that's just the absolute top, but it's really cool.
Dr Rupy: Oh, well, I look forward to doing that, uh, one day at some point in the future. I'm just about getting over the...
Dr Will B: No pressure, man. I'm not, you know, you just, you just got married. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to tell you you got to do anything. I'm just saying, uh, at some point, perhaps.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, no, I uh, I'm still, I'm still getting over, I wouldn't call it a trauma of the wedding, but just like, you know, the craziness of it and everything. And it was just super enjoyable to have everyone down. And like, you know, my wife's Australian, so all of her family are over and it was a very unique scenario to have everyone in the same room. So, um, yeah, super stoked that that we could make that happen. Look, we were just chatting before we started going live about, um, a bit about how our stories are sort of intertwined in that, um, we're both doctors, uh, we both wrote, uh, our books whilst practicing, uh, full time. But what we didn't get into is actually how you got into nutrition, uh, in the first, uh, instance. It's relatively unusual, I'd say, it's becoming a lot more common now, but it's relatively unusual to have doctors, uh, go through that conventional system and have a, uh, a good depth of knowledge around nutrition. So, why don't we, um, we start by talking a bit about your story, uh, and what led you down this path in the first place?
Dr Will B: Yeah, I mean, Rupy, I, I feel like these things need to change. Um, I, I don't know how we could look at what embodies human health and ignore nutrition, which perhaps is the largest piece of the entire pie. But, you know, to kind of, um, go back in time, about 10 years ago, I was in my medical training as a gastroenterologist. So I was already board certified as an internal medicine doctor. I could have been in practice. I could have not been in, you know, the training system, but I wanted to become a specialist. During this period of my life, I, I know you can relate to this. I was working, basically my entire life was consumed by the hospital. There just was no other space for anything else. I barely had time to do my laundry. And, um, there six days a week, 18 hours a day, sometimes 30 hours in a row. And when you're in that place, number one, you're just trying to survive. And number two, there are these little fleeting moments that make you feel kind of good, like you have some self-worth. And you have to lean into those things because they're what get you by when you're having a hard time. And for me, that was food. I found that a, uh, unhealthy but very tasty junk food diet, you know, fast food diet, it fit so perfectly. It was quick, it was low effort, it tasted good, and it didn't cost any money, which was perfect because I didn't have any money. And those choices through my 20s, you know, when I was, um, in my early 20s, I could get away with it because I, I guess it was just age. I, I, I, I had a good metabolism. So it didn't really show up. And so I kind of thought that I could continue to get away with this forever. And the problem is that the, the trade-off or the compromise that I made was more of a, hey, this isn't going to hurt you right now, but it will hurt you over the course of time. It will start to build up and cause trouble for you. And so that trouble came for me when I turned in, uh, around 30 years old. I felt like I was in a really bad place. Like, uh, there's this moment, Rupy, where, I mean, I can't say that like this came out of nowhere. This was building up over time, but I kind of feel like there was this moment where I'm looking in the mirror and I don't recognise the person in the mirror. You know, how did I become that? I was, um, 20 kilos, 50 pounds, more than 20 kilos, I guess like 23 kilos, 22 kilos overweight, 50 pounds overweight. I was, um, I was depressed, I was anxious, I had high blood pressure, I had high cholesterol. Uh, I had extremely low self-esteem, which is kind of bizarre to people that don't understand what I was feeling like because I was accomplishing all of my professional goals and more, but I, I didn't really feel good about myself. I knew that things needed to change for me. And the strange thing is that I had dedicated like at this point, I'm in my early 30s, so like nearly half of my life already has been spent pursuing this goal to become a medical doctor for the purpose of healing and helping others. And I'm the one who needed the healing. I'm the one who needed the help. And I didn't want my own medicine. I didn't want to treat myself using the techniques that I had been taught. Again, like I was a board certified internal medicine doctor. I could have been my own doctor. And I didn't want those things. And so I wanted something that actually would fix the problem and get to the root of it. So I tried exercising. Like I'm sure you've been there with me. You know, sort of like a typical early 30s, almost like a jock, right? Like, I'm just going to go to the gym and work out so hard that it doesn't matter what I eat or what I do. I will, I will, you know, transform my body. And, um, I did get stronger and faster and things like that, but I did not transform my body nor restore my health. And clearly I needed something else. And what ended up becoming that thing was nutrition, was changing my diet. Changing my diet completely transformed my life. And, um, it was a, uh, a flip towards a plant-based diet. It was not, by the way, a flip towards veganism from my perspective. This was the, um, realisation that maybe by eating more plants, that maybe I would feel better. And, you know, a quick, uh, little story. There was a day that this started. And again, this was not a light switch. This was, like, I took years in my transition. But there was a day where this started. I was on my way home from work, and normally I would just go to the local fast food joint. It's called Hardee's. And at Hardee's, you could get for $4. I'm not kidding. Uh, about 2,000 calories. Oh, wow. And that included a double cheeseburger. Okay. Four bucks, a double cheeseburger, a chili cheese dog. It did have some onions on it, so that was redeeming. French fries, a soda. I would make that a diet Coke because that's healthy. Oh my god. And also an apple pie. What? So, yeah, man. Uh, so, well, we like to make our fast food cheap here in the States. So, yeah. Anyway, really. I made the decision to divert away. And I diverted home. But I still needed something that was easy. I'm not a gourmet chef. I'm not claiming to to do be able to do the things that you can do, Rupy. And seriously, so I diverted home and I was like, well, what, what am I going to do? Now that I'm here, like, what am I going to do? I'm hungry. And I pulled out the blender. And I just loaded it up. I didn't even like look for a recipe. I just threw stuff in there and added some water and some ice and buzzed it. And it was like, uh, you know, three tall glasses full of smoothie. And I mean, this is being completely real. I felt so good because I think normally when I would eat, I had gotten so used to feeling hung over. So I felt so good after drinking that smoothie, so light, so fresh, so energised. It almost felt like you could feel it through my blood. And maybe you could. You know, I think that the sort of context that's important with that is that when you feel, like I think it helped me as a doctor to understand what my patients feel like. They don't feel well. And when you feel so unwell, and then you find something that makes you feel better, you have to do it again. Because you just want to feel better. And that's kind of what happened. I just did it again and again.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That's epic. I mean, like, again, there's so many similarities between our stories. When I...
Dr Will B: I want to hear it. Tell me about it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I got ill, uh, it was a lot earlier, actually. It was literally just when I qualified, um, as a junior doctor. So I was 24, three months into the job. You know what it's like. No time to sit down, sleep's all over the place, stress is super high, you're learning stuff on the job, you're eating from the hospital canteen, that's usually beige and stuff covered in cheese or whatever. And then we have like fry-ups, typical fry-ups in the hospital. Uh, that's like a very popular hospital breakfast. That's when I started having my palpitations. I got diagnosed with atrial fibrillation. I got admitted to the hospital when my heart rate was going up to 200. And that was the start of me being able to empathise with patients because I knew what it was like to be vulnerable. I knew what it was like to be, uh, that person literally in the bed. And I started making those changes. And just like you, it wasn't like a light switch. It was steady, gradual things that I started adding. I started with breakfast, I started having oats, I started making my lunches and bringing it to work. And that's when I saw a recovery over a period of a year and a half to two years. And it was, it's funny you said something in the story that really hit home about how you didn't want to take your own medicine. You didn't want to take those, those blood pressure pills. You didn't want to take those, you know, all the rest of the things that we are very important in conventional medicine, but they're not treating the underlying root cause. And you talk so eloquently in both your books about getting to that root cause that I want to dive into in a bit, but that really stuck with me because, you know, if I didn't want to take those medications to, uh, uh, cease my arrhythmias or reduce my heart rate, then I'm sure none of my patients would have really wanted to. They wanted to find answers and they wanted to find a route to healing themselves. So, um, I really appreciate you sharing that story, man. That's, uh, I'm sure that's going to be super helpful for a lot of people.
Dr Will B: I think it's, I think it's, uh, I think it's so true. And by the way, I'm not making an argument against conventional healthcare. I think that it's very important that we have conventional healthcare, right? But I, but I think that the, I think that the problem that I see is that we need to, um, we need to make it more holistic. We need to look at the complete person and we need to understand more than just, just diagnoses or just symptoms and having algorithms and tests and and and pills and procedures. We need to get to a place where, yes, we do have those things, but you know what, we're going to also focus on your, on your diet, your lifestyle, your sleep, your stress. These are very big and important things and how people feel and their health.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, having the time to dive into those things, um, as well. I mean, one of the things that I'm, I'm currently involved in at the moment is, um, a drive to change hospital food, uh, not necessarily for patients just yet. It's actually for hospital staff and patient visitors, because right now, I'm not too sure what it's like in hospital systems in the US, but when you go to a hospital in the UK, you're usually met with a Starbucks with all the sort of unhealthy beige options that they have, like croissants and, uh, refined breads and all the rest of it and high sugar drinks. Uh, or you have the hospital canteen that generally doesn't have very healthy ingredients. It's usually fried fish, chips, beans, uh, not, not the kind of beans that you're talking about, the kind of beans that are loaded with sugar and salt. Although they're probably better off.
Dr Will B: The beans that are mostly sugar and bacon. Yeah, yeah. Mostly sugar and bacon with a little bit of beans.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, those kind of, those kind of beans, um, and, you know, jack potatoes and and that kind of stuff. So, you, what I'm trying to do is actually help people who are in similar experiences to to ourselves, actually look at improving themselves before they reach that threshold where disease sets in, where they get their first diagnosis and then they're on the trajectory of, you know, getting the next one and the one after that. So, yeah.
Dr Will B: I love that. I love that. We have the same issue in the States. Um, my training for my internal medicine residency was in Chicago at Northwestern University and we had a Starbucks in the lobby. We also had three restaurants, uh, in the cafeteria. It was like more than a canteen. It was, there were actual restaurants and, you know, and, you know, how can, how can we expect our doctors to be good at what they do and to be sharp and be focused and, you know, go through what is very rigorous, dealing with the healthcare system on a daily basis, if their body is not in a place of strength because their diet is poor and they are not sleeping and they have intense levels of stress and they don't have time for exercise, right? We have to, I, I love what you're doing because we have to apply this to this, like, let's call them a vulnerable population. It doesn't matter how much money they make, right? It doesn't matter. They are a vulnerable population because the demands of the job are tearing their body apart. So, I think, I think that's, uh, tremendous. I'm very, I'm very excited to hear that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I'll let you know how we get on with it. There's definitely a lot of support, um, and, uh, it, it's, it's a, in the UK, uh, generally doctors who work in the hospital don't get paid anywhere near as much as, uh, the states. There isn't that sort of like trajectory of, although you guys have like a ton of debt when you guys leave medical school as well.
Dr Will B: There's some complexity.
Dr Rupy: Uh, but, um, the, the nurses, the...
Dr Will B: There is, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few friends of mine who are like anaesthetists and stuff and they're just about paying off their student loans and stuff. So it's a very, very different system.
Dr Rupy: I'm still paying.
Dr Will B: Oh, there you go. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Testament.
Dr Will B: Yeah. Yeah. And I am, I am in my 40s, you know, despite, uh, how I may look on the camera.
Dr Rupy: It's all that fibre, buddy. It's all, it's all that fibre that's making you look so good.
Dr Will B: The power of plants. But, uh, yeah, so like, uh, yeah, a lot of the, um, uh, the staff, uh, that we also certainly want to cater for are the, uh, the administrators, the porters, the nurses and and everyone else because, um, you're right, they are a vulnerable population. And actually looking at UK data, they're at more risk of things like cardiovascular disease, depression, dementia than the general population. So you have to start there. And I also have this sort of idea of like, you have to treat, uh, our medical staff as if they are athletes because what they're doing are pretty incredible feats of, you know, long hours and having to make decisions in the middle of the night and stuff. And you want someone to be as well-rested and as optimal, uh, as possible when it comes to their nutrition and all the other factors of lifestyle. So, um, yeah, I'll, I'll definitely keep you updated with that.
Dr Will B: I love that. And two quick things I just want to say before we move on. First of all, the number one cause of death among cardiologists is heart disease. That, that to me says a lot. And number two, I just want to give a quick shout out because you're kind of alluding to this, but I want to take this quick moment to shout out to the nurses and the techs and the respiratory technicians and the other hospital staff because this pandemic was a tremendous challenge to these people and it was hard. And I think it's important as a society because people are not actually inside the hospital. Like, for example, in the States, due to privacy laws, like they can't bring cameras inside the hospital and show what's going on. But I can tell you having been inside that hospital, these are the heroes. And it was actually very easy for me as a doctor relative to what the nurses had to go through because they were the ones in the room with the coughing patient. So, um, I just want to say that real quick. I know because I know you feel that way too.
Dr Rupy: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I completely agree with that sentiment. You know, a lot of the time when I was in A&E and even in ICU during the first wave, uh, I was in a room, you know, like, uh, calling patient families, uh, having discussions with some of the, the, the other senior doctors, whereas you had all those people that you just mentioned here, the ICU nurses, the ward nurses, everyone who were literally breathing the same air in, in these closed wards for hours at a time. So, absolutely. And actually, um, on that note, let's talk about, uh, some of the interesting data that came out of, uh, well, you wrote about it in, in your book, actually, in, in the, in the latest one about how, um, those who had a greater diversity of plants in their diet or a high fibre intake, uh, were at less risk of the severe symptoms of COVID-19. Uh, I wonder if we could start with, with that study.
Dr Will B: Yeah, it's kind of interesting, Rupy, because I, I think I, in research, in clinical research, it's really pattern recognition. We're looking to see a pattern that starts to become reproducible. And when you can see it in different layers of the evidence, like there's no one study that proves stuff. We need multiple different studies from multiple different angles. And those multiple different studies are all kind of pointing in the same direction. And that's when you know that you have something that's strong and believable. Um, so that's what I like to look for. And I noticed a pattern starting to emerge already in 2020 where they would do microbiome studies in people that had COVID-19. And, um, this was a paper published initially in the journal Gut, which of course is the top gastroenterology journal in Europe. They did microbiome studies in people that had COVID-19. And what they noticed that I was really taken aback by is that there was a distinct difference in the gut microbiome pattern of those who had COVID-19 and it persisted after the virus was gone. Now, real quick, um, I'm sure your audience is, is quite facile with the microbiome, but just in case there's some listeners who don't really know what we're talking about here, let me just give a quick run through. So, it's, it's, um, very interesting what's happening in the world of science today. I feel like we're going through a scientific revolution. And the reason why is because we, um, it's not that we discovered that we have these invisible single-cellular microorganisms that are a part of our body, like in, on our skin, in our mouth, and most concentrated inside of our colon, which is our large intestine. And in that spot, we call them the gut microbiome. It's not that we just discovered this. We, we knew they were there. We just, we didn't really think much of them. We figured they're just like they produce bowel movements and, you know, gas. Um, so why would we care? New technology developed in the laboratory around 2005, 2006 that allowed us for the first time to take a look at these 38 trillion. All right, that's a big number. 38 trillion microorganisms that live inside your colon. This number is literally if we were to take all of the stars that exist within our galaxy, we would need 380 galaxies full of stars that we would insert into our body to match the number of microorganisms that we have living inside of us right now. Literally right now, Rupy, as I talk to you, I'm holding up my thumb up for the camera in case anyone wants to look at that. On my thumb right there, there are as many microbes as there are people in the UK. Yeah, that's crazy. So, I'm looking at a little island of you guys. So, anyway, um, this microbiome, uh, it's, it's important because we have discovered that it's connected to many of the parts that are very relevant to human health. So that is digestion. That's where I sort of came in. I became very interested from a digestive perspective, but it's actually so much more than that. It's also our metabolism, our hormones, our mood, our brain health, our immune system, uh, our energy levels. So we have discovered this gut microbiome is really important. Okay, that's, that's gut microbiome 101. Coming back to the COVID-19. They had this paper published in Gut, and they looked at those who had COVID-19 and those that did not. And they found that those who had COVID-19, there was a shift in the microbiome towards more what we describe as inflammatory microbes, microbes that create inflammation, and less of microbes that we would describe as anti-inflammatory. But there was a specific thing about those anti-inflammatory gut bugs that went missing. Those gut bugs are known to be the ones that help us to digest our fibre and produce what are called short-chain fatty acids, like butyrate.
Dr Rupy: Fibre 101. Here we go. We'll jump right into this. Yeah, I'm glad we're going through this because I think a lot of people hear the word fibre and they think of like one thing. Uh, and I think what you've done...
Dr Will B: Pooping.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, they think of, they think of pooping. And, and I think like, uh, giving, giving folks a framework to think about fibre, okay, what fibre is, the different subtypes, uh, how we differentiate between those. I think that would be really useful for people when they think about it in the context of what you've just described, the, the microbiome.
Dr Will B: Okay, so, uh, sorry for the diversion for those who are really interested in the punchline of the COVID-19. If you, if you already are a fibre expert, um, you could probably jump ahead four minutes and, uh, hear the punchline of COVID-19. But fibre is quite fascinating because we, we really thought of this as a boring nutrient. Um, there continue to be people who say fibre is not essential for human health. It's, I find that to be an interesting statement. Fibre is actually going through a renaissance in a way because we discovered, like we thought that fibre was just in the mouth and kind of sweeping through and pushing junk along and then kind of torpedoing out the other end as a bowel movement. Like that, that's the story of fibre that we were sold. But, uh, actually the story is very exciting because fibre, we as humans lack the enzymes to digest and break down fibre, which is actually a blessing because then the fibre goes undigested and arrives into the colon the exact same way that it went into your mouth. And there in the colon are the 38 trillion microbes. And guess what their preferred food is? Fibre. Guess who has the enzymes to break down fibre? Your gut microbiome. They have thousands, we believe tens of thousands of unique enzymes that us humans don't have. And they do. And this allows them to then get to work as teams. Like they literally work as teams. Um, different ones step up at different moments using their enzymes to unpack the fibre. And fibre undergoes a transformation where it stops being fibre and it re-emerges as this beautiful thing, the short-chain fatty acids, butyrate, acetate, propionate. Now, these short-chain fatty acids, um, if you haven't heard about them, it's time that you do because they are in my 20 plus years of studying medicine, the most anti-inflammatory compounds that I have come across. And we can see their healing effects in action throughout the entire body. Um, and we will be talking about some of those healing effects, but suffice it to say that I mentioned earlier, the gut microbiome is connected to your digestion, your immune system, your metabolism, your hormones, your mood, your brain health. Every single one of those things, we could sit down and unpack how short-chain fatty acids are relevant to your digestion, your immune system, your hormones, your mood, your brain health. Um, so this is a powerful and exciting thing. And one last quick caveat before we come back to COVID-19. We're just not eating fibre. So I'm here and I'm talking about how wonderful and exciting this is. In the United States, so we are particularly bad eaters in the United States. We are probably the worst. 95% of Americans are not getting the minimal recommended amount of fibre. In the US, in our country, the Institute of Medicine recommends that the average woman get 25 grams of fibre. She's not. She's getting about 15 and a half. The average man is recommended to get 38 grams of fibre. He's not. He's getting about 18. We're way low. This is, this is, uh, perhaps our most pressing nutritional deficiency from my perspective. And fibre is not hard to find. Um, it's a carbohydrate. So when we categorically vilify carbs, we're vilifying fibre. It's a series of sugars linked together in a very complicated way. And there are many, many different types of fibre to try to describe. So I was a chemistry major in college. And when I look at fibre molecules, I'm like, okay, I don't even know where to start. Like, what is that? I just, it's so complicated, I get a headache. So to make it simple, we've sort of broken fibre into two main categories just to really simplify it as much as we can. Soluble fibre and insoluble fibre. Insoluble fibre means that if you put that into a beverage, like if you put it into a coffee or a tea and you stir it, it will actually dissolve. It will disappear. And insoluble fibre, which is what we could refer to as roughage or grit, that part, it will not dissolve, no matter what you do, no matter how warm the temperature of the beverage is, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. So, uh, these two main categories of fibre, they're a little bit different. Soluble fibre is the fibre that feeds these gut microbes. And insoluble fibre largely passes through the intestines and does have some effects such as on our cholesterol. But you don't need to worry about these distinctions. What you need to know as the listener at home is very simple. Fibre is good for you. Fibre feeds your gut microbes. Fibre creates these anti-inflammatory compounds. And you find it in plants. All plants, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, and legumes contain fibre. And I'll add one more, that's mushrooms. Now, mushrooms are not technically plants. They're fungi. But we're going to make them honorary plants because they're actually a great source of fibre as well. We want to be eating more plants. And the average American diet is about 10% plant-based. You know, my understanding is that in the UK, only about 10% of people, I said 5% in the US, in the UK, only about 10%, maybe 12% of people are meeting the recommended amounts of fibre. So this is a, uh, not just a, a US junk food problem. Uh, this is a global, um, urbanization, western, uh, society problem. And so, anyway, bringing it back to COVID-19, uh, they noticed that they were missing the microbes that digest the fibre when people had COVID-19. It turns out that these are the same microbes that produce short-chain fatty acids. And this was highly compelling to me because I knew at the beginning of the, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was like trying to figure this out. Like, what is, what is going on here and what are we going to do about it? And I actually wrote up a piece that I submitted to some of the big newspapers here in the States, like the New York Times and the Washington Post. And I understand why they didn't publish it. But I was convinced that fibre could be part of the story because there already was data, granted from an animal model, where they would infect the mouse with a respiratory virus, not COVID-19, but a respiratory virus. And they would feed the mouse a high fibre diet. And the scientists in this, uh, laboratory study, they thought that the high fibre diet would actually be bad for the mouse because fibre reduces inflammation. So if it reduces inflammation, then it would reduce your ability to fight off a virus. And they actually found the complete opposite. The mice that received the high fibre diet, they lived longer, they had less severe manifestations of the virus, and they actually tested the capacity of their lungs to expand, and they found that they were, um, more capable of expanding their lungs on the high fibre diet. So this led the scientists to dig deeper and try to understand this because they were surprised. And what they discovered was that specifically, when these mice were fed a high fibre diet, the fibre came into contact with the gut microbes. The gut microbes in the mouse released short-chain fatty acids. The short-chain fatty acids travelled through the bloodstream to the lungs. And in that place, helped to shape the response of the immune system, where it helped to get the appropriate immune cells that fight viruses into the fight. So like, let's get these guys on board ASAP. And at the same time, these short-chain fatty acids were suppressing the unnecessary, uh, sort of, uh, excessive immune response and keeping them in the barracks. And so, fascinating. Short-chain fatty acids and fibre can shape the response of the immune system in a battle against a virus. This suggests that dietary fibre between the gut study showing that we were missing the microbes that that produce short-chain fatty acids in severe COVID-19, and between this, um, animal model-based study, it suggests that dietary fibre may be really important. And it all came to fruition, again, layers of evidence. It all came to fruition in a subsequent study of multiple countries, including the UK, where they looked at hospital-based workers early in the fight against COVID-19. And these were pre-vaccination. There was no vaccination at this point. And they asked the question, what happened and what were you eating? And what they discovered was that the people who had, uh, that were the least likely to develop COVID-19 and to have moderate or severe COVID-19 were the people that were consuming a predominantly plant-based diet. The second most protected were the people consuming a pescatarian diet. And the least protected, the, in this case, most likely to develop moderate or severe COVID-19, were those consuming a low-carb diet because bearing in mind, like, we're kind of speaking about the ketogenic diet right now, bearing in mind that I mentioned a bit earlier, fibre is a carbohydrate. When we cut carbs, generally speaking, unless you are a nutritionist and really good at what you're doing, generally speaking, you will be cutting fibre in the process of cutting carbs. And that's what we saw in that study.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, it's super interesting. I remember when they came out. And I think, um, inherent in a lot of studies are the factors that make, um, the number of confounders that you might find in someone with a predominantly plant-based diet that might have all the other healthy factors and stuff, and you try and control for those, for sure. Um, but that really did raise a few eyebrows. And I think it speaks directly to your point about the need for more fibre in our diet, considering we have such low consumption across the population in general. One of the other things that I wanted to pick up on actually, as you alluded to in your explanation as to why the researchers were surprised about the anti-inflammatory effect, potentially dampening the immune response is because inflammation, although it has like quite a, uh, sort of, uh, bad rap, is a very important part of our immune response. So we're using inflammation, our immune cells are actually generating inflammation when they fight off pathogens. So, uh, but it's everything's in moderation. So it's really about balancing inflammation rather than removing all source of inflammation altogether. Super fascinating, uh, studies. And just to sort of summarise, I guess, you know, fibre, multiple different types, the overarching, uh, opinion is to try and get as much of, uh, those different types of fibre and diversity as well. Those create short-chain fatty acids, acetate, propionate, and butyrate, and those have, uh, gut nourishing, uh, effects for your colonic cells. They have the impact on your immune system, they modulate inflammation in your intestines in general, and they have all these other factors as well, which I think are absolutely fascinating. In terms of the soluble versus insoluble, are there further subtypes of fibres that you like to think about, uh, when referring to specific ingredients or or anything like that, or or do you just sort of go for as many different types as possible? Is that sort of like the way you think about things whenever you give advice to patients?
Dr Will B: I prefer for us to find approaches that are number one, very easy to conceptualise. Um, number two, you can turn them into a game. And number three, you can make them fun. Because I, I truly believe and I, and I think that you feel this way too, Rupy, like food is meant to be enjoyed. And I have a problem when we create, uh, rigid programs and rules that make people so neurotic about what they're eating that it stops being fun, it stops being enjoyable, and starts being this rigorous thing. So, I like to simplify it. And the, you, um, alluded to this, but I just want to unpack this real quick. So, there's literally, we believe millions of different types of fibre that exist in nature. We don't even have an exact estimate. We don't know. But we believe that there's at least millions of different types. And, um, you have to understand these microbes that live inside of us, they are varied. They are diverse. There are many different ones. They have, they're almost like us. They have different, um, skill sets, like specific ones do specific things. They have clicks or circles of friends that they run in. You see them hanging out together. They kind of have different personalities, like some of them are grumpy. And they have different dietary preferences. So, now, I suspect that you and I, like people might describe us as eating a very similar diet. Yet, I don't think that's true. Because we have different dietary preferences, right? We might share some certain foods and really love this, those same dishes. But generally speaking, there are many different ways that we can come across, come about making those choices. So we all have different, uh, dietary preferences. These microbes are like that. We want as much diversity within our microbiome. Diversity is the measure of strength and resilience. And part of that is because when you have a diverse microbiome, you have all these different skill sets willing and capable of contributing to your health. In order to feed a diverse microbiome, we need to acknowledge their diverse dietary preferences. And if fibre is their preferred food, then we need to feed them a diverse mix of fibres. And this is where the concept of diversity within the diet has really, um, risen up in the last few years. And I want to, um, briefly acknowledge some of my colleagues that I love and have great respect for in the UK, such as Megan Rossi or Tim Spector, who are doing very similar things and messaging in a very similar way to me. And I find that to be an interesting but also encouraging thing because we're looking at the same science. There was a paper that came out, um, called the American Gut Project. And the American Gut Project was far more than just Americans. It was actually a global project that allowed us to take a look at the gut microbiome in connection with diet and lifestyle. And ask the question, what are the factors associated with a more healthy gut microbiome? And when they performed this analysis, like I don't know what the lead author, Rob Knight, what he eats, but I'm pretty sure he's not a plant-based guy. I think that he's a scientist, right? I think he's a scientist. I think that he wants to do good science. I think that he wants to shift paradigms and perhaps like win a Nobel Prize someday. And, um, when they performed their analysis, there was one thing that was the most important factor in association with a healthy, diverse microbiome. And that was the diversity of plants in your diet. And specifically in the, in their study, the number was 30. 30 different plants per week, per week. Now, this may sound, first of all, intimidating. Don't be intimidated. If you're less than 30, it's okay. This is an idea about moving the needle. And so it's not that you have to be at 30 and it's also not that 30 is a magic number. Like 29's good too, and 31's just a little bit better. The point is that our food system does not want us to actually have a diverse diet. The food system, it's easier for them to consolidate into just a couple crops and then just monocrop the heck out of it. And that is that is wheat, corn, and soy. And when you step into your market, 75% of the calories that are coming from plants in your market are from those three foods, wheat, corn, and soy. Um, so it falls to us, if we want a diverse diet, to feed and nurture a diverse microbiome, it has to be intrinsic. It has to be self-motivated. And this is where the idea from my perspective, and I know that both, uh, Megan and Tim have been out there banging the same drum. The difference being they're banging it in London and I'm over here banging it in the States. But they're out there banging the same drum and and and spreading this message that when we, when we, um, when we emphasize and focus on eating a more diversity of plants, number one, you will get your fibre. Number two, you will naturally gravitate towards plant-based foods, meaning that they will rise above current consumption and become a more dominant part of your diet. Number three, every single one of those plants has unique nutrients beyond just fibre to feed and nurture your body. That includes polyphenols, which by the way are prebiotic. Prebiotic means they feed your microbiome. Fibre isn't the only thing that feeds your microbiome. Polyphenols do too. It also includes resistant starches in some cases that are prebiotic and vitamins and minerals and these special chemicals called phytochemicals that you find in plants that in many cases, the pharmaceutical industry tries to snatch them up and turn them into drugs, but they've already existed. They've already been there for thousands of years, millions of years. So, number three, you get all of those beautiful things. And number four, you are eating the ideal diet to support and nurture your gut microbiome. And, um, so to me, uh, it's not like a, uh, a rigid thing. Rupy, the the original question is, so, first of all, by the way, I apologize for the diversions, everyone. But the original question, the original question was like, how do you think about these fibres? Like, how do you approach this? And the answer is, I don't, I don't really think about these fibres and I don't really count grams of fibre. I've never counted grams of fibre. What I do is very simple. I count plants. I step into the supermarket, there's that beautiful fresh produce section. Boom, I'm counting plants. I'm in, I'm by the legumes and the whole grains and the seeds and the nuts. It's not necessarily fresh produce, but guess what? Boom, I'm thinking about diversity of plants. I come home, I step into the kitchen. I'm a lot more clumsy than you are. The food doesn't look as beautiful as your food, but that's okay. I'm thinking about diversity of plants, right? Like a simple idea here, Rupy. I got three kids. I'll call my kids into the kitchen with me. Um, we're a normal family. We're going to put together some pasta sauce and and, uh, some pasta, right? So, like you could have pasta and sauce. Is there anyone that believes that that's a healthy dish? I'm not going to contend. I mean, you could do worse, but I'm not going to contend that that's the healthiest dish out there. But flip side, you take that sauce, you get it simmering, you open up, you flip open your refrigerator, like, hiya. And you just ask yourself this question. What tastes good in tomato sauce? And you start pulling stuff out. And you got the onions and the garlic and the mushrooms and the peppers and the zucchini, uh, and, um, you know, the basil and you can keep going down the line. I know, I know that there are people at home listening right now that are shouting at the shouting at their radio or whatever. Oh, but Dr. B, you would add this, you would add this. Okay, yeah, get it in there. Let it simmer. It smells fragrant. It's attractive. It looks beautiful. My kids, they're excited to be a part of it because they helped to cook it. And you serve it up and guess, guess who's the happiest? These gut microbes. Like they're they're doing a kick line. They're dancing, right? It's like Irish dancing down there. Because you just took tomato sauce that was only going to feed one of them. And now you've broadened this out and you didn't even try and you got eight different plants in your tomato sauce. And you're feeding a diversity of microbes. And so in the, in the market, in the kitchen, at the dinner table, I just, I just want you to hear my voice. Diversity of plants. And, um, you make this a central piece of your diet.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And you can kind of see why a lot of people struggle with elimination diets in general because it does require quite a bit of motivation and dedication and, uh, you know, that that sort of scientific nature of, okay, I'm going to tinker with this, I'm going to add this, I'm going to wait a bit. I'm going to take a food diary and then I'm going to, okay, try the next one. It's like, you can understand why they're like, oh, well, this company is just selling me, uh, a quick test and I can find out in two minutes and just be done with it. And so you can understand sort of the motivations, but it's good to hear it from yourself having seen thousands of patients in your clinical career is like, this is the way to do it. It's slow. It does require a lot of effort, but this is if you want ultimately the success and the flexibility of a of a digestive system that is adaptable to multiple ingredients, this is certainly the way to go. Diving into the observe section, are there key symptoms that you ask people to look for specifically, like fatigue, bloating, uh, change in the bowel habits? Are there certain things that you're like, you should really write this down in your food diary and figure out, you know, how this is changing on a day-by-day basis?
Dr Will B: Yeah, I think that's a great question. So, um, if I were to distill down digestive health into only one symptom, if you're only giving me one, I'll take the symptom of gas and bloating. Because I tend to find that anyone who's struggling from a digestive perspective, there's going to be some level of gas and bloating. And when they're better, like for example, uh, with constipation, people classically have gas and bloating, almost all. And I know that they're better when the gas and bloating is gone, right? That that is the measure of digestive health is when you can eat in abundance without restriction and without suffering any unwanted symptoms, you have digestive health, which I feel like real quick, Rupy, is a concept that people have confused on the internet because they do things like say, oh, well, I, um, eliminated all plants. I eliminated all plants. I went carnivore and it fixed my gut. It didn't fix your gut. Because if you tried to eat those plants, you would actually feel horrible and you actually probably would feel worse than you did before, right? So you actually haven't, you haven't made your gut stronger. What you've done is you've avoided these foods. And what you've, when you avoid these foods, you are actually compromising on the health of your microbiome and you're compromising on nutritional quality. And those are things that don't necessarily show up in one week. But I do worry about the effect of those things in the long haul and broad human health because at the end of the day, I just want people to be happy, healthy, and live long lives. So, anyway, um, what are, what is the information though that I seek to collect when I'm observing? Uh, in the Fibre Fuelled Cookbook, I give an example of what this might look like. Effectively, I want to know what you're eating. I want to know what the symptoms are after eating. The window of time from my perspective is out to three hours is where I'm really focused. I also want to know, so like gas and bloating would certainly be one of them. I would think about discomfort and where that discomfort is. Nausea, I want to pay attention to bowel movements. When you go, how often you go, what does the bowel movement look like? That may be a bizarre thing to some people. There's a way that we measure it. I know that you know this. It's called the Bristol stool scale. And, um, you can, you can actually like look at the pictures of seven different types of bowel movements and assign a number from one to seven. And that number provides insight. Like a type one bowel movement is a very constipated bowel movement. It's a hard ball. And a type seven bowel movement is almost straight water. That's diarrhea. And you get the full spectrum with type four right in the middle being the the bowel movement we're striving towards, which is soft, formed, sausage-shaped. Um, and with bowel movements, I also want to know like, how do you feel? Do you feel like you really went? Do you feel like you didn't completely empty? Do you feel good? You should. It's supposed to be a pleasurable thing. It's supposed to be one of the highlights of your morning or your day. Um, and when it's a struggle and you're sweating, sweating and working hard, uh, then we have work to do because we're not where we need to be. So I want to know about bowel movements, frequency, um, what Bristol type, whether or not you feel like you completely emptied, how do you feel around the bowel movement? Do you feel better after a bowel movement, by the way, is a really important, like sort of a trick that I've used in my career, uh, for the people listening at home, like if you have digestive symptoms, but you feel way better after a bowel movement for a couple of hours, and then those symptoms start to come back again, your body is telling you you need to have more good, complete, regular bowel movements. We need to get things moving. I think it's important too to put how we feel into a framework of context. So coming back to some of these things that like holistic healing, we're talking about more than just what you eat and how you feel. We're coming back to the fact that you are a complete person. Let's look at that complete person. How did you sleep last night? Did you get a good night's rest? How many hours was it? Did you wake up at night? Did you have any sort of ruminating thoughts? Um, exercise, were you able to get in some, uh, activity? Like literally a walk counts. I celebrate that. I think like people underestimate the value of a walk. A walk is very valuable. And stress, um, you know, kind of where are you at? Is there anything in your life that you feel is, uh, troubling you? Because if there is, then you should expect that your digestive, when you're in a place where you're feeling troubled by your stress, you should expect that your capacity to digest and process foods is not going to be where it needs to be. So, these are the things I would look at.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think that's a really important point there. You should expect that your digestive system is not going to be working properly if you are stressed. And I think that's um, a really important consideration. I want to bring this conversation to a to a close soon, but I I did want to touch on uh, histamine intolerance. It's been brought on my on my radar by patients actually who sort of informed me about it. Uh, as as a lot of this stuff actually, you know, uh, certain elements of nutrition, you know, I'm always, um, sort of listening out for what people are talking about, uh, not just on social media, but like, uh, in in clinic because I really feel like it, you know, it filters down from multiple sources. Um, I wonder if we could talk a bit about what histamine is, um, how one might be, uh, sort of diagnosed or think about, uh, histamine intolerance as a, as a, uh, a contributing factor towards symptoms, how varied those are, and, uh, and how, uh, you've, you've sought to give people a guide as to, uh, essentially along the same growth, uh, process, how they can potentially, uh, rid themselves of or lower their, uh, the incidence of, of histamine related symptoms.
Dr Will B: Yeah, you know, one of the things about my, uh, my book, the Fibre Fuelled Cookbook is that it became a protocol. You know, originally it was going to be a cookbook and I didn't really know what to call it because it feels like it's not exactly a cookbook. Yes, it does have 100 recipes and it has colour photos, but, um, it became this protocol where the chapters are unpacking the growth strategy. And as I walk you through that, I am going to guide you to these specific dietary protocols that you can apply using the growth strategy. So it's like, yeah, there's all these recipes that are plant-based and diverse and, you know, a lot of different plants. But I also have specific sections for FODMAPs and for histamines to help people identify and understand whether or not this is an issue for you. And a quick comment on histamines before we dig into the the, uh, nitty-gritty. Uh, histamine, histamine is, um, very complex. It would be hard for us to cover this in a way that I feel like I've done my complete conversation in the next 10 minutes, but I think it's important for people to understand that these types of approaches, like for example, FODMAP, we're all trying to figure this out. And nutrition research hasn't received the funding that we wish that it would receive. And it takes time and there's a maturation process in our understanding. And if you went back 10 years ago, FODMAPs, like there were many people that were skeptical that this was a real thing. It came out of Australia, Monash University. I think they were more accepting of it in Australia first, but many people like in the States were just like, yeah, but what does that even mean? You have to prove it. And I think we're kind of right there with histamine intolerance, that there there's a building momentum, but we're still very early stages with histamine intolerance. There's a lot that we don't know. But I felt compelled to include this in my book. And the reason why is because I think that there's enough there for me to say that I do believe that this is real. Unfortunately, there's not a blood test to prove that. But there are people who clearly suffer with these issues and they have reached out to me, uh, since reading my book and this is when I feel really, really good as an author because when people say to me, you changed my life with that chapter, then I say, I'm so glad that I included it. And so histamine, histamine intolerance is, um, again, coming back to this idea of a threshold. There is histamine in our food. Histamine, by the way, is a molecule that is innate in our body. Like we have histamine in our blood literally right now, all of us, every single one of us. And it's a part of our immune system. It's also a signaling molecule. It can affect our brain, it can affect our digestion, and again, it can affect our immune system. When people have acid reflux, uh, the old school medicines that sometimes we still reach for and use are called histamine 2 receptor antagonists, H2 receptor antagonists. Because if you block that H2 receptor, the histamine receptor, you reduce stomach acid. When people have allergic symptoms, we reach for histamine 1 blocking agents like the classic is diphenhydramine, which is Benadryl. But we also now have these longer acting ones like cetirizine and loratadine. Um, I don't know what they're called in the UK, perhaps you could, do you know, Rupy, what those are in the UK?
Dr Rupy: The same actually. So loratadine has got some trade names, uh, but we tend to use the generics, uh, and cetirizine and, uh, yeah, very similar.
Dr Will B: Okay, got it, got it. So yeah, so like in the US, those are Zyrtec and and I believe Claritin. And so, Zyrtec, Claritin, Allegra. So, anyway, um, so you can see that histamine is a part of your body. Well, histamine is also in food. Histamine is in food because food contains protein, contains amino acids as the building blocks of protein. And one of the amino acids is called histidine. It sounds a little bit different. I was trying to accentuate that a little bit. I apologize if if it came out weird, but histidine, D I N E, a little bit different than histamine, M I N E. Histidine is an amino acid. And you'll find it, you know, basically in all food. And, um, microbes that exist, like our world is ubiquitously covered with microbes. Everywhere we go, there are microbes. A, uh, an apple has a microbiome. If you were to harvest fish, there are microbes on the fish. And these microbes have enzymes that are capable of taking the histidine and turning it into histamine. So there can be a histamine supply that exists within your food. All foods contain histamine. There's never been a food that did not contain histamine. It's just varying amounts. The classic foods that contain histamine are the ones that are exposed to microbes the most, like fermented foods. Now, that includes the classic ferments like, uh, sauerkraut, kimchi, miso, tempeh, yogurt, um, cheeses, kefir. All right, those are classic ferments, but also let's not forget that vinegar and alcohol and chocolate, those are ferments also. So those are all high histamine foods. The other classic is fish. Uh, fish, uh, they catch the fish and they put it on ice. And as the fish sits there on ice, unless it is frozen immediately, these microbes are transforming the histidine into histamine. And so there's a, uh, more acute, more intense, more violent version of histamine intolerance called scombroid poisoning or histamine poisoning. Um, it's rare, it's not common. But when it does occur, it tends to be a bad supply of fish. That is the number one cause. So, anyway, histamine exists in our food. And when we consume this histamine, our body has the ability to handle a certain amount of histamine. But it appears that in people that have digestive health problems, such as irritable bowel syndrome, they may not have the ability to handle as much as other people. And so this excess burden of histamine can manifest with symptoms. But what's interesting about this particular condition that makes it different, um, and that, you know, really sort of motivated me to put this into the book so that I could help these people, is that it affects more than just your digestion. It can be a whole body experience. So, yes, gas and bloating and discomfort and diarrhea, um, can be related to histamine intolerance. And if you experience those symptoms and you don't know why, then this would be something that you might consider. But going beyond that, outside of the gut, headaches, classic, migraines, classic, runny nose, sinus issues, you eat food, you get congested, that could be histamine related. Um, cough, skin changes, rash, hives, flushing, um, cardiovascular stuff, like your heart, meaning like rapid heart rate, um, lightheadedness. In women, actually histamine is very strongly tied to their menstrual cycle, very strongly tied to the hormone estrogen. So women actually get a surge of histamine, uh, intolerance typically during, um, the premenstrual phase. So if you notice that you get headaches, headaches at the time of ovulation, headaches at the time of premenstrual, or worsening of your menstrual symptoms, that can be histamine motivated. So, uh, trying to close this off real quick, Rupy, in the interest of time, we apply the same concepts. You know, what you do is you ask, is this possible? Could this be the genesis of my symptoms? And if you have several of the symptoms that I just described, then you have to consider this. So what do you do? Well, again, there's no blood test or cat scan or anything to make it easy for you to just walk into your doctor, get your test, walk out and have your answer. You have to go through the process of doing a temporary restriction of histamine-containing foods, observing how you feel, and then working them back in. And that's what I, uh, laid out in the cookbook is a means for people because there's, I believe 24 or 26 low histamine recipes. Like, this can be very complicated. You don't know what to eat, what you're supposed to eat, how do you do it? Okay, cool. Like, I get that. Like your doctor's never going to like say, uh, here's the, here's your low histamine recipes. They might say, here's the high histamine foods and then you don't know what to do. All right, let me make this super simple. Eat these recipes. Do it for ideally two weeks, at least one, but ideally two weeks. See how you feel. If you feel way better, right? Then to me, it's like, okay, first of all, how you feel is how you feel. And that's important. And second of all, we may have just figured out what the source of your problem is. And if that is true, then we have taken a major step towards better days for you. And that's what we want.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, yeah, I'm really glad you put that in the book because I think, uh, navigating, uh, high and low histamine ingredients is, uh, is difficult enough because it's just not that well known about. Um, and I think you've just made it super easy. And I think all the while knowing that to really get to the root cause, going back full circle to the genesis of the issues, you want to try and reintroduce them in small doses and then measure and see how you do. And then you've laid that out really well, uh, in the cookbook. Um, well, this has been super fun. Uh, we've got to do this again at some point in the future, uh, hopefully in person when you're down in London. Uh, it'd be lovely to, to cook for you. Uh, one of my recipes, uh, and, uh, and we'll, we'll, we'll get your, um, your feedback on that as well live. That would be awesome. But no, thank you very much for your time. I really do appreciate it. And, uh, I wish you the best of luck with the book and, uh, I can't wait to help promote it for you over here across the pond.
Dr Will B: Thank you, my friends. Uh, and you know, thank you first of all to everyone who listens to us here today. Um, if you want to, uh, learn more or follow my work, there are resources that I have that are completely available to everyone. So you can follow me on social media, The Gut Health MD. I technically have a Tik Tok. I just started it. And that one is The Gut Health...
Dr Rupy: Nice.
Dr Will B: Yeah. I'm not doing the dances yet. I don't have the, I feel a little too old for that, but, um, but I am sharing knowledge there. So, uh, The Gut Health MD underscore, because I think some probably like 12-year-old kid took my, took my account. Um, and then if you go to my website, theplantfedgut, I have a free email newsletter. I do have some other free resources that are there intended to, intending to help people. And I also, um, for those who are like interested in diving beyond the book, for those who have read the book and they want to go beyond the book, I have courses now that deal with diagnosing your food intolerance, that deal with going beyond the low FODMAP diet that's in the book to go into the higher level and dealing, uh, with histamine intolerance beyond the book. So I, I do try to build out these resources and, you know, really at the end of the day, the goal is just trying to create ways that people can empower themselves with the right information, not in the absence of a healthcare provider, but in conjunction as a supplement to working with their healthcare provider to ultimately accomplish their goals, feeling better and living a better life. That's, that's what we all want.
Dr Rupy: Epic. No, that's awesome, man. We'll link to all those resources in the show notes. And, uh, yeah, thank you once again, man. This was, this was epic.
