Al Heim: To your point around growing the the plants in a stressed conditions. So it's there's a lot of research on that around red wine and how the resveratrol concentration of it is affected by growing it under stress. Chlorogenic acid is is really the the resveratrol of coffee. And there is some research which shows that coffee grown at altitude because of the extra stress and the thinner air etc, leads to a higher concentration of chlorogenic acid in the original bean. So that's another thing that we tested as well.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life. I love coffee. It is not a secret. I love the ritual of my morning cup. I love the smell, the rich aromas, the flavour. And I got into the coffee scene during my time in Australia and my obsession has continued. And if you're interested in the health benefits of coffee, then honestly, this episode is going to be for you. We do a deep dive into the nerdy side of it. And just as a primer for anyone that might not be interested in coffee or can't have coffee because of the caffeine, don't worry, there's good news for you because even decaf has some benefits. Roasted coffee is a complex mixture of thousands of different bioactive compounds, some of which are recognised to have health promoting properties, but it also is responsible for the complex flavour of coffee as well. Things like polyphenols, the products of roasting the beans and even the caffeine itself, these all contribute to these health promoting effects. A lot of people, myself included previously, would ascribe these benefits to the antioxidant profile of the chemicals that they contain. But actually, the mechanisms that support the potential impact on reducing the risk of a number of different conditions are probably a lot more complicated and mimic what we see with broccoli or green tea or berries. It's fairly well recognised that habitual coffee consumption is associated with a lower risk of a number of different conditions, type two diabetes, dementia, chronic liver disease and even certain types of cancer. But there are a number of different coffee paradoxes. For example, it's well known to raise blood pressure in the short term, but it's associated with lower rates of cardiovascular in the long term, cardiovascular disease in the long term. So there are a number of murky issues here which we don't really fully understand, but overall, I think coffee, whether it's caffeinated or decaffeinated, is a good thing to contribute to a diverse plant focused diet that we always talk about over here in the Doctor's Kitchen. To talk about everything to do with coffee and everything you've ever wanted to know about coffee, I've got Alex Manos and Al Heim from Exhale. Exhale coffee launched in 2020 during lockdown and it's the first coffee in the UK to be sourced and roasted for health and performance benefits and beautiful flavour. It's organic, it's speciality grade, but uniquely, through nine different independent lab tests, it's high in these healthy plant phytochemicals that may have these health benefits as well. We talk about sourcing the beans, the effect of stressed crops and how that develops the flavour as well as the health benefits, a process or a concept known as xenohormesis that we'll explain. We also talk about the process of extracting the bean, how you roast it for both better taste as well as a better health profile. And we also talk about different brew methods that would impact the amount of bioactives in your cup, the process of decaffeination and how you can, yes, you can preserve the health benefits even without the caffeine. And we also do a nerdy dive into the potential mechanisms of why coffee may have health benefits. Honestly, it's I loved this episode because it's just everything that I want to talk about when it comes to food and ingredients and you can really tell the passion from both Al and Alex about coffee. And obviously I love coffee, I love tasting it, I'm drinking it right now. So if you're into coffee, this is definitely going to be one for you. And even if you're not, I reckon you'll probably be into coffee after this. Quick disclaimer, I have a role as advisor for Exhale coffee and I want to declare that. The reason why I'm involved with Exhale coffee is truly because it aligns with my principles. I believe in the foundations of this family owned company, the way they go about creating the product as you'll hear about today, and their attention to detail is amazing at every step of it, whether it's sustainability, whether it's the health impact, whether it's the fair trade to the farmers that they use, whether it's the importers that they work with, and very importantly, love the flavour. It's an amazing coffee, it's one of the coffees that I have, so certainly something that I recommend everyone taste if you're into coffee. If you're interested in trying Exhale coffee, which I suggest you do, you can get 40% off your first two bags with a fully flexible, no commitment subscription valid until the 28th of February by just using the code Rupy at the checkout. That's RUPY at the checkout. As always, you can find this information and more at thedoctorskitchen.com. Check out the newsletter while you're at it. The app launched a couple of weeks ago. We've got some amazing feedback from people. There's over 250 recipes. We're adding new recipes every single month. A ton of different variety for you to get some more diversity and all those other plant chemicals and polyphenols that you need to live a healthy, happy life. So please do check it out. It's on iPhone only for now. We are working on Android and we're taking in all your feedback and we're adding new features all the time to upgrade the experience so you have an amazing app experience and it's our sole mission to give you the best app that you have on your phone and that's what I'm working at super, super hard this year, as well as all the free and accessible information that we have, like recipes, this podcast and more across social. So I really appreciate your support and I hope you enjoy this podcast as much as I did. I think you're going to love it. Guys, thank you so much, Alex and Al. I know you're both called Alex, I'm going to call one of you Al, which is the founder Al, and Alex Manos, who is, what what is your role, Alex? You're you're medical advisor, but your your background is is pretty cool.
Alex Manos: Yeah, so I guess my official title is the Chief Wellness Officer. Um, so I uh, I help out with the the content, um, especially from a health perspective. So, uh, me and Al go back a few years now. Um, but yeah, my role is to help and assist in things like the blogs that go out, the science section on the Exhale web page. Um, I obviously join Al for the podcast, so we have good chats with people about coffee, which is lots of fun. Um, and my background is initially started in personal training and and massage therapy. Um, but because of my own health issues, um, I had ongoing digestive issues from a very young age. I was diagnosed with IBS finally when I was 18. Um, went on to study nutritional therapy partly just because of that sort of natural evolution. I really found that diet just played such a huge role in alleviating my gut symptoms. Um, and then as the whole sort of functional medicine movement came to the UK, started certifying with the Institute for Functional Medicine. Um, and I guess most recently I've done my masters in personalized nutrition. So I've kind of gone from the the movement and physical side more into the nutrition and functional nutrition side.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's that's epic. It's it's it always, well it doesn't surprise me anymore that so many people have like a personal health story when it comes to how they got to nutrition. Um, and I'd love to dive into some of the topics around gut health, the impact of coffee on the gut and whether that's having a positive or negative effect as well, depending on the person. Um, but before we get into that, let let's chat to Al, uh, the founder of of Exhale coffee, um, who I've known for uh, probably about a year now. We've been chatting, um, and we met up a few times. Um, you've had your own health uh, story as well, I guess.
Al Heim: Exactly. I mean it's the classic of everybody who's got into a business like this, a health related business, had their own health story. But basically before launching Exhale, I was an accountant for about 15 years, working in FTSE 100 companies, very kind of very much in the corporate world, deeply unfulfilled accountant, um, totally the wrong career for me. And then I kind of was just plodding along and then around six years ago, I started developing my own weird and debilitating health issues and getting loads of crazy symptoms from, you know, gut issues as well, but also the kind of the brain fog and the fatigue and all that kind of stuff. And I didn't realize at the time, but it turns out I was actually developing an autoimmune condition and it was literally affecting everything across my whole life from parenting to I had a baby around that time to work. I was getting into endurance sports, so it was just really stopping me enter so many events, like I pulled out of more than I actually entered. And basically, kind of I was in and out of most hospitals across London because of my symptoms. Um, and I was just hadn't got any answers. So I started trying to take control of my own health and just started researching more and more, um, how I could kind of what I could change my lifestyle and what dietary changes and other lifestyle changes I could make to try and take back control of my health. And then the more I researched and the more I kind of tried to push the endurance and the the athletic kind of um, uh, challenges, which is kind of where I was getting the fulfillment from in life. Um, the more I came across coffee as being playing quite a pivotal part in both of those. And like on the endurance side, I obviously was using it for the performance benefits. But then on the health side, it just turns out from the research that it had, you could have such a profound impact on health as well. So then I was desperate to get out of accounting. So this kind of this whole coffee idea and movement kind of sparked that transformation in me to finally have the the courage and the motivation to get out of accounting and launch a business around kind of coffee for health and for performance, which is where Exhale was born.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if if anyone has ever met you, the uh, the thought of you being an accountant uh, is so far removed from what your day to day is like now, but also like your weekends. I mean, when you say you're an athlete and you're a high performance, I think you're really underestimating it. Just for the listeners sake, like you do ultra marathons. You're you're probably about to tell me that you're doing some like crazy 100k run this weekend or something. Like because every time we speak, you're like, oh yeah, I'm doing this this weekend. So, you know, having an an AI condition would have really impacted that, I guess.
Al Heim: Yeah, totally. And like, yeah, I'm kind of training for my first 100 mile ultra at the minute. So like, for example, yesterday I ran into the office, but it was a three hour run into the office, um, via via hill repeats on the steepest hills in London. So it's kind of, yeah, that's why that's my day to day life at the minute really.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, well you live and breathe uh, the brand, which is aspirational, um, but it's also, you know, about grounding uh, yourself with a a delicious tasting, high quality coffee that's for performance, environmental benefits, um, and uh, and and just, you know, the the pleasure and the flavour of having like an amazing cup of uh, of of coffee, the hot drink, my my favourite drink. Um, so tell us a bit about like where the the idea sort of uh, generated and and began to take shape because I think everyone has ideas, particularly if you're in a job which is not fulfilling or, you know, you've always wanted to move into some space that you have an interest in. For a lot of people that is wellness. Where did you spot the gap uh, in in the in the market for a a healthier coffee? Because I don't think most people, people just think of coffee as coffee. You know, you've got different brands, you get different farms, you get, you know, single origin, etc, etc. But where is where is the health aspect?
Al Heim: Yeah, so I actually firstly decided I wanted to set up a coffee roastery about six years ago as well when I was traveling around Bali. Um, and I was surfing in Bali, we'd we'd taken our baby during maternity leave, traveling for three months. And I was surfing every day, sleep deprived, and I was surfing some of the craziest waves in in the world over kind of waist deep uh, waters over razor sharp coral and coming into like life or death situations and I had really one really close call. And then I kind of became slightly obsessed with coffee from that point because of how much it'd wake me up and of how it'd really help my performance and I could go from having a terrible night's sleep to to go out and have one of the best surfs of my life, but at the same time come back and then be a great parent still and rather than just flying at half mask continually. And then as I started learning, well basically as I started swapping more things in my life for more health conscious decisions and foods a few years later, and started realizing that actually there was no healthy coffee, but actually coffee could be one of the most um, beneficial um, or it's up there with the most beneficial parts of a healthy lifestyle. It's up there. Um, then I realized that there was a gap in the market because there was nothing for me to swap my coffee to, but then there was all this science mounting supporting coffee as being a great health product. So that's where the kind of the idea came from.
Dr Rupy: And and did you discuss that with Alex early on? And what what is the the relationship? Did you go to school together or like we just like close friends or?
Al Heim: When I was going through my health issues, Alex was my uh, functional medicine practitioner. So he was consulting me, he was guiding me through my health issues and we had a chat around two and a half years ago maybe and I said to him, um, what are your views on coffee? And Alex thought I was asking, should I cut coffee out of my diet to help my health issues? And Alex actually said, put it this way, I started drinking coffee for its health benefits. And that's when I'd been on this journey already thinking about healthy coffee and I was like, well actually, I've got this idea to launch a business around a healthy coffee. Do you want to join me on it? And he said, hell yeah.
Dr Rupy: Wow, that's so cool. That's epic. And so, so where, so the the health aspect of of coffee, what why were you convinced of that, Alex? What was uh, what was your introduction?
Alex Manos: Yeah, can I first say that Al, you make my life sound so boring. He makes, he makes everyone's life sound boring, honestly. Like every time we chat, you know, he's either running or like on the way to something or he's telling me about something he's preparing for, which is, which is epic. But yeah. But um, no, to answer the question, I think I just stumbled across a paper basically on PubMed that started discussing the health benefits. Um, and there's a kind of a running joke I think in nutritional therapy, which is you start your first year as a student and you look in the lecture theatre and everyone's got their bottles of water, um, or their green tea, but by third year, everyone's just looking exhausted back with the coffee. And I think there is this kind of, there's, it's easy to think that because of the caffeine and we're all stressed that we should be limiting our coffee and it's a guilty pleasure. Um, but when I came across that paper, I was like, oh, actually, this is great news. And I wasn't, I wasn't even particularly fond of the taste at that time. So I started drinking it literally for the health benefits. I'd never been drinking coffee before. So it wasn't like I was actually personally excluding it because I thought it was bad per se. Um, and then I've kind of, I guess my taste buds have evolved and now like the highlight of my day is my my morning coffee.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I had my own um, sort of uh, journey through coffee. So I I didn't start off drinking coffee at um, at the start of university. It was only till later years. So probably similar to you guys. I started when I was in my fourth or fifth year of medicine. Um, and I started off like right at the bottom rung, as you can imagine. Like this is probably going to like absolutely uh, horrify a lot of the listeners, but I was, it was a mocha with extra cream from uh, uh, Starbucks. Uh, and I would get like a large one as well. And that's that I would literally use it for the caffeine benefits because it would give me that perk, but then I would be right back there like three hours later needing another one. And so that was sort of like where I started on my on my coffee journey. And then I like gradually went to different ones like lattes and flat whites, gradually removing the sugar. And then when I go when I went to Sydney, I had my first flat white when I was out there in 2014. And that's when the penny dropped. It was like, this is what coffee is meant to taste like. It's incredible. And now I my standard coffee is a is a long black because I really love to taste every element of the actual raw product in there and all the the complexity and the flavours and it was similar to the cupping session that we did uh, Al the other the other week. That was that was an amazing experience. The first time I've I've done cupping. Maybe you can explain what cupping is to to the listeners because it was it was new for me and I hadn't had that before.
Al Heim: Cupping is, I mean, primarily it's a way to taste for defects in a coffee. So in kind of average commodity level coffee, you taste a cup of coffee to taste for defects, but there's a standard protocol that you have to follow. So in the speciality coffee world, cupping is really important because to be a speciality coffee, a coffee has to score over 80 out of 100 on the SCA scale for coffees. Okay, and there's this really strict protocol of how to brew that coffee first of all, and then how to taste it and how to score it and what different things you're looking for when you're tasting it, so that in theory, someone could taste the same coffee anywhere in the globe from any country and from any background following any diet and they'd score it almost exactly the same out of 100. Um, irrespective of all of those different conditions. And it's that strict protocol and it does really work like that. And it's actually, it's a huge, um, it's a huge thing for the industry because a score of one or two difference could really impact the amount that's then paid to the farmer. So if someone scores a coffee 79 and it's not quite speciality grade, then the the price that the farmer can sell it for is considerably less. So it's a really strict kind of process. As much fun as it is when we do it with all the slurping and everything else, it's kind of it's actually really, it's taken very seriously. You do it in like labs lit with UV red light so you can't be impacted by the colour of the coffee and all this kind of stuff.
Dr Rupy: That's super cool. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's um, let's bring it back to the the health benefits of coffee because this is kind of where it all started. And Alex, I want to bring you in here again. Um, so let's take a a macro approach about what we know about coffee and the impact of the consumption of coffee and the association with different conditions and and how we might describe it as potentially preventative for certain things. What what do we know about that level of evidence and and uh, and and and the associations with coffee?
Alex Manos: Yeah, it's, it's actually pretty incredible really. So I think my favourite statistic is if you're a coffee drinker, especially if you're averaging three or four coffees a day, which seems to be generally the sweet spot in the research. Um, there's a 10% reduced risk in all cause mortality, which basically just means if you drink that much coffee, you're 10% less likely to die from anything. Um, which is just sort of a fun statistic, I think. Um, but we also see significant reductions in sort of cardio metabolic conditions. So type two diabetes, metabolic syndrome generally has a 9-10% reduced risk. Um, liver conditions is another one. So we see a 29% reduced risk in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Um, in the research, we'll probably come back to this because there's a really strong gut microbiome, gut integrity connection with kind of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. But we also see almost a 40% reduced risk in liver cirrhosis. Um, we see significant reduced risks in liver cancer. Um, my second most favourite stat is around neurodegenerative stuff because I think a lot of people are so scared that that could be in their future. Um, I think there's it kind of tugs on the heart strings, I think for a lot of us. And there's a 25% reduced risk of Parkinson's disease and a 65% reduced risk of Alzheimer's disease. Um, and a lot of this research has pretty strongly suggested that it's not just caffeinated coffee, that decaf coffee has very similar um, health benefits and protects us at these sorts of magnitudes. Um, from a cardiovascular perspective, we see a 30% reduced risk of mortality by stroke, a 19% reduced risk of coronary heart disease. Um, and I think that covers kind of a lot of the big ones. Other cancers include prostate, endometrial, um, melanoma, and there's a couple of others as well there. Um, so from an overarching perspective, we're seeing significant reduced risk of a lot of different conditions. Colon cancer being another one actually.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, okay. So huge associations with uh, some of the the the most widely known and the most prevalent conditions that we have. Do we see any other associations with other caffeinated and perhaps non-caffeinated drinks like uh, maybe tea or um, green tea in particular? Do do we know what the impact is? Is it comparable? Is is there one better than the other? I'm just thinking about the non-coffee listeners here who who perhaps can't have coffee for whatever reason. Uh, would there be some some comparable benefits?
Alex Manos: I couldn't say with 100% certainty. I know there's research out there that has compared it and from memory, there are somewhat similar outcomes. Um, and that's partly just because one of the things in coffee that is providing these health benefits is the polyphenols, which we'll expand on later. And polyphenols are obviously found in things like tea and green tea, but also things like um, cocoa, um, and you know, various fruit and vegetables just at different levels ultimately. So because these polyphenols are one of the primary um, mechanisms or constituents that's leading to these health benefits, we're definitely seeing some of that within um, sort of normal tea drinking and green tea as well. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. Al, we we had a chat actually, I remember one of the first times and um, you were kind of blown away by the concentration of different polyphenols that you have in coffee. So let's let's go into that kind of detail uh, for a bit because uh, when I did a bit of research around coffee, I was kind of blown away. A, it's a significant contributor to our total polyphenol intake, particularly in the states. But B, just the magnitude of different types of of polyphenols that you get uh, in coffee is is pretty incredible. So we understand that there are some associations with coffee drinking and reduced all cause mortality, plus a few other um, a bit more nuance to that statement as well. Let's go into, okay, what's in coffee from a at a at a micro level in terms of those different polyphenols? Which what are the standout constituents?
Al Heim: Firstly, I'd say, going back to your your original point, yeah, um, there are seven different studies. The first of which was a 2004 Norwegian study which shows that coffee contributes on average 66% of your total dietary intake of um, polyphenols. Um, and then there's been six studies since then which kind of confirmed similar numbers. So coffee is the the predominant source in our diets. Those polyphenols in coffee, there's a specific one called chlorogenic acid, which is the kind of most abundant polyphenol in coffee. It's the one that most studies cite as being the one that's giving the health benefits of coffee. Um, and it also in the the green state of the coffee, in the green bean, it accounts for on average around 7 or 8% of the total weight of the bean. So it's a huge portion of the bean. And then as you roast the coffee, which we maybe we'll go into, um, that kind of drops as you go through the roasting process and the various stages of its life cycle. Now, aside from chlorogenic acid, there's a whole load of other compounds. I mean, there's about a thousand different compounds in coffee overall. So there's loads of them and we're like continually discovering new ones in coffee that are associated with different health um, outcomes as well. But aside from the the chlorogenic acid, there's things called melanoidins, which are formed during the roasting process and they um, they're particularly particularly relevant to the the kind of the gut health side of the chat. There's also things called cafestol and kahweol, which have a lot of research behind them as well. They're two diterpenes which are fat soluble, associated with the the fatty acids in coffee. And yeah, there's loads of other things like lignans and and then potentially some kind of negative compounds in coffee as well, which we want to try and avoid and roast out. So, so yeah, it's just a, yeah, it's just so much going on in there.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, definitely. So, I mean, thousands of chemicals, the standout ones being your polyphenols, for which you have your your chlorogenic acids, of which there are a variety of different ones. And I I would love to go into a bit about the roasting process actually and seeing how you can change that and the process that you went through to find your healthy coffee. Uh, your your diterpenes that you just mentioned there, um, which again have some potential mechanisms by which they might be uh, health promoting. And then your um, melanoidins, which I understand are a product of the roasting process of the Maillard reaction. Um, and and there is or I is it acrylamides? Is that the negative chemical that you're referring to that we want to try and reduce?
Al Heim: Exactly. Acrylamide is the negative one. Um, and yeah, the roasting process really impacts the levels of all of these different ones. So as I mentioned, chlorogenic acid starts in its highest concentration in the green bean. And then as you roast it, it slowly drops off and then somewhere around a medium to dark roast, it drops off a cliff. And then as you get to a dark roast, you've kind of lost 90% of the original concentration of chlorogenic acid. So you want to avoid dark, really dark roasted coffees. Then the melanoidins are formed during the Maillard reaction, which is the caramelization of the sugars in the coffee, which peak at around a medium roast and then they start dropping off again towards a dark roast. And then the cafestol and kahweol are also um, they peak around a medium, so they start in their highest concentration in the original green state of the coffee. And then as you roast it dark, they, um, because they're associated with the the oils in the coffee, the fatty acids, when you roast a dark coffee, when you see the surface of the bean being shiny with the oils, that's the oils leaving the coffee bean, taking with it these um, cafestol and kahweol compounds that are that are um, within the oils. So again, you kind of want to avoid the dark roast coffees, but you want to develop the coffee far enough into a medium roast to get the benefits of the melanoidins. So it's a balancing act between all of these different compounds really.
Dr Rupy: Well, I was going to go into the mechanisms behind the benefits, but let's talk about the process because I think we're at a good point there because in your story, okay, you've got uh, your your practitioner who's now your friend and and uh, and and involved in the business. Um, where did you, where did you even start like trying to think about, okay, what bean am I going to use, who am I going to use to import it? What talk us through that that whole process.
Al Heim: Fortunately, there's a lot of studies done on coffee. So in the last 10 years alone, there's been over 8,000 studies on coffee. So it took me around two years of research and reading the science on coffee to try and figure out and come up with this theory. And then basically at the start of 2020, around about the time lockdown started, I kicked off this process and I got 45 coffees from plantations all around the globe that met a certain criteria that I knew would lend themselves to higher concentrations of polyphenols. So we got these 45 coffees, we had this great day in our garden, cupping the 45 coffees, we taste tested them all, chose our favourite tasting ones of them and then sent them off to be lab tested. And then we found,
Dr Rupy: I want to I want to ask, how how did you, what was the criteria by that that you used to get those 45?
Al Heim: So they had to be organic farmed to start with. Okay, and then there's other parts of the process which would lend themselves to a higher concentration. So for example, coffees, you're probably aware can be, there's a few different processes like a washed or a natural process, most of them are. If you do a natural process coffee, then it's left out on drying beds under the sun to dry for longer. So the UV rays of the sun can degrade some of the polyphenols and affect the the quantity that you're getting in the final cup. So we only went for washed processed coffees. And then there's other processes around the decaffeination of it and because we were looking for a decaf coffee as well, we wanted to use a chemical free decaf method. Um, and then people have said things like the, there's loads of theories, loads of theories in the science, you know, that and different varietals of coffee would be better than others. And also robusta beans versus arabica beans. Um, so we really just tested a real broad range of of coffees that kind of met these different criteria just to kind of get an understanding ourselves.
Dr Rupy: So so the criteria was it had to be organic, it had to be washed. Remind me what washed is again? I don't know if you explained that. What what what is washed again?
Al Heim: So it's the process of how you, so so coffee grows inside a cherry on a tree and it's the process through which you get the the coffee seed or the coffee bean out of that cherry. And you ferment the coffee um, cherry and then the beans drop to the the bottom or or vice versa. Um, and that's how you remove the mucilage and the cherry from the coffee bean. And then the washed versus versus natural depends on how they're dried and the natural ones are just left on drying beds for a lot longer. The washed ones are kind of are washed and then dried in machinery basically.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Okay, fine. So because I I think for a lot of people, when they see on the front of especially like these third wave coffee packs, it it just nothing makes sense. You know, what what is washed, what is, you know, this method, like it's it's very confusing. So this is great. So so you went for an organic, you went for washed, you went for robusta arabica?
Al Heim: Um, so we tested a couple of robusta beans, um, but mainly arabica beans because robusta beans generally don't taste as good. So if you were going for a single origin robusta, it's just so hard. There really aren't many. Although there's a bit of a new wave and they're actually they're more sustainable. So there's a new wave to try and get better quality robustas. But we went mainly arabicas. But we tested a few robustas and they didn't seem to have much more, um, they weren't any better than the arabicas, the ones we tested.
Dr Rupy: Okay, okay, good. So you went for arabica and then
Al Heim: Speciality grade was a key as well. So speciality grade coffees are really like the coffees to to be speciality grade, it has to be free from defects. Okay, so they they judge the amount of defects in the coffee and if you have a defect in the coffee like broken coffee beans or these are the things, it can really affect how they're roasted and introduce some negative compounds into it. Um, and also it's really looked after at the farm. So they so they kind of using that organic fertilizer and that kind of thing and also looking after the crops means that speciality grade coffees often grown at higher altitude tend to have higher concentrations of polyphenols in them. So it's like any food, better looked after food, um, if you have a farm and a plantation and it's fed with kind of like a, you know, um, not a monoculture plantation, maybe permaculture or something like that, you're going to get a lot more nutrients absorbed within all of those crops and the farm. So that was kind of the theory that we applied as well.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I I want to take people through this thought process because there's so much that you've gone into it and and otherwise it like, you know, it kind of just gets brushed over. So you went for all these different criteria. And it's interesting you said that about the the defects in coffee beans because when I think about vegetables and wonky veg and imperfect veg, those are great because the imperfections have shown that they've had they've been stressed and you actually get those an increased concentration of those different plant chemicals. Whereas with a bean, as you've nicely explained, it has to be a good shape and size because that affects the roasting process. I I wouldn't have put that together. So that's a really good, really nice point.
Al Heim: You want the bean to roast at a really even way so all of the beans in the roast are roasted to the same level. That's the only way you can guarantee a kind of more even flavour profile and also on the the polyphenol side. But to your point around growing the the plants in a stressed condition, so it's there's a lot of research on that around red wine and how um, the resveratrol concentration of it is affected by growing it under stress. And um, chlorogenic acid is is really the the resveratrol of coffee. And there is some research which shows that coffee grown at altitude because of the extra stress and the thinner air etc, leads to a higher concentration of chlorogenic acid in the original bean. So that's another thing that we tested as well.
Dr Rupy: So so you got this is brilliant. So so you got these this high altitude uh, farms. So you got like a higher proportion of one of the key components that makes coffee so healthy in the first place. Uh, and then and so and so you whittled that all down to 45 different plantations. Is that is that right?
Al Heim: Yeah, exactly. They were the 45 coffees that met all of the criteria that were available at the time. And uh,
Dr Rupy: give us a give us an idea of how many how many different plantations there are like in in the world.
Al Heim: I mean, I don't know, hundreds of thousands.
Dr Rupy: Okay, fine, yeah.
Al Heim: I thought I thought as much, yeah.
Dr Rupy: You know, even in Africa alone, you know, there's so many small holders plantations that are no bigger than your average garden in in England, you know, probably. So there's, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot out there. Um, but yeah, so that was the whole sourcing process. And then around roasting, it's even more complex because the kind of the roasting of the coffee really affects how um, you know, the like I mentioned before. So like once we'd found this coffee that had the highest inherent potential, we had to roast it loads of different ways at the roastery and plotted them on a graph to see where this drop off point was, to see where the chlorogenic acid which was slowly dropping would then drop off a cliff. So we wanted to roast it kind of as far into the roast process as possible to develop that natural sweetness and the sugars in the coffee, the Maillard reaction, but we didn't want it to pass this drop off point where you just the the concentration of the chlorogenic acid would start free falling basically. So there's a real balancing act there too.
Dr Rupy: This is brilliant because I I can't imagine any other roaster really taking it to this level of thinking about not only the flavour, I think most of us, in the same in the same way a a chef makes a meal, they're purely doing it for flavour. They're adding butter, they're adding cream, they're adding salt, they're adding MSG, they're adding all these different flavour enhancers to to create a really palatable meal, which is beautiful and and delicious. But there is a balance and I think there is what you're doing is essentially bringing the flavour aspect but also concentrating on the functional benefits as well, which is which is why I think we get on so well because I'm trying to do that with food and you're you're trying to do it with coffee.
Al Heim: I would say that as well as that as well, at every stage of our process, we considered the sustainability as well. So literally when we got those original 45 coffees, we had a whole load of sustainability criteria that if they didn't meet it, we just didn't put them at the table. So there could in theory be a healthier coffee out there, but it just maybe didn't taste good enough or also it just, you know, the farmer wasn't paid a fair price for the coffee and it didn't meet our sustainability criteria. So it was a real balancing act between all three of those.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, because I remember you actually explained at the cupping day, you were explaining the differences between fair trade and actually what is a genuinely a fair price to the farmer and and how you how you cater for that. I mean, you work really closely with your um, uh, your your importers uh, as well. I mean, you've got a great relationship with them. Maybe you could talk a bit more about that actually because I don't think people fully appreciate the um, the the degree that you have to go to to actually ensure that your farmers are actually being paid properly. Um, it's not just a presence of a label, actually there's got to be a lot more thought process behind that.
Al Heim: Yeah, definitely. And you know, it's about choosing a reputable importer as well. Um, and we work with kind of one of the best in the in the industry and they go above and beyond supporting the farm and the plantation as well. Um, and yeah, the fair trade model is great. It doesn't really apply as much in the speciality world because the fair trade model guarantees a price. So coffee is a a commodity product. It's like a traded on the the stock exchange like oil and uh, whatever else and gold. Um, so coffee is a commodity product and as a result, the price of that coffee and then the price that gets paid to the farmer is so dependent on the stock market and these things that are out of their control. So the fair trade certification is a really good way of guaranteeing a minimum price that farmers get paid for their coffee, um, which isn't reflected, which isn't affected by the the stock exchange. And it it works really well in general, but it only really works at the commodity level um, coffees, so the cheaper coffees. Once you get into the speciality coffee world, the farmers are getting paid three, four, five, 10 times as much as the the fair trade price anyway. So they don't go through the fair trade certification because it's kind of the next level, which is where this scoring out of 100 is so important. Um, and if you score less than 80 and you're not speciality coffee, then it's is a much more difficult process for them.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha, gotcha. Alex, I'm going to bring you back in here because we've got to the point where Al is roasting the coffee to make sure he's got all those beautiful polyphenols in, it tastes great, uh, you're reducing the negative impacts of the of the Maillard effect of the roasting process. Let let's go into some of the mechanisms behind why these polyphenols have benefits. There's only so much that we can tell I guess from in vivo and in vitro studies, but but maybe we can go through some of the hypotheses and and the mechanisms.
Alex Manos: Yeah, so I think the the short answer is that we see that these compounds have antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties. And as you say, we've got different layers of evidence. So the statistics we mentioned earlier around sort of the reduced risk of conditions through drinking coffee are largely from obviously epidemiological observational studies. Um, but that's still valuable. So some of the more recent studies, you know, they've tried to do their best to get rid of all the compounding factors like smoking, exercise and things like this. And the sheer number of people over sometimes extended periods of time really um, strengthens those associations. So some of these studies are looking at 900,000, almost a million individuals. Um, the one around all cause mortality was half a million people in the UK. Um, and we see some of these associations in different ethnicities, cultures around the world as well, which I think is just an interesting kind of finding. Other, other research does have some conflict when we think about gender um, and ethnicity as well. So we have to be mindful of that, I guess ultimately. Um, but from an in vitro, in vivo, sort of test tube, laboratory type analysis where we can start to look at these mechanisms, we do see a reduction in various pro-inflammatory mediators. So things like uh, interleukin 6, cytokines. Um, there are studies in humans that have shown a reduction in C reactive protein, which is a well-known inflammatory marker in the blood. So there is some human research that's kind of correlated that as well. But actually, one of the things, two things that are really interesting apart from just this antioxidant, anti-inflammatory perspective is um, the epigenetic mechanisms that can go on. And also what you guys have been discussing about around the environment and the climate that that coffee bean is grown in and the stress response leading to greater quantities of these phytochemicals. There's a theory which is that the same is happening at a cellular level in the human, meaning that a lot of these polyphenols have a degree of toxicity associated with them. Like if you drink too much green tea, that can actually be quite problematic for your health. Um, so there's this idea that actually one of the mechanisms involved with coffee is that the polyphenols are stimulating something called NRF2. And when NRF2 is stimulated, that's then leading to this kind of adaptive um, cellular response whereby we're seeing an upregulation in endogenous antioxidant systems. Because bear in mind, you know, we talk about antioxidants from coffee or we talk about zinc, selenium, vitamin C, but we have endogenous antioxidant molecules and systems and these are actually getting upregulated by not only chlorogenic acid, but a lot of the other compounds that were mentioned earlier, like the diterpenes, um, and trigonelline as well. Um, so there's different mechanisms that are at play there. And then the epigenetic one, um, epigenetics, I I think is basically kind of defined as above genetics. So when we're talking about epigenetics, we're talking about how our genes are being expressed. Um, the most researched mechanism is related to methylation. So with methylation, a methyl compound, which I can only describe as like a carbon hydrogen molecule, that's as best as I can go with it. Um, is either added or removed um, to a certain segment of the DNA, which is then influencing genetic expression. So these genes are kind of being turned on or turned off is the the common way it's described. So what research has shown through these kind of epigenome wide association studies is what they're called, is that chlorogenic acid and coffee seems to be influencing the methylation of these um, DNA strands and genes and that's having an impact on the integrity of our DNA, which is strongly associated with most health conditions, especially the ones that we've been discussing, cancer being probably the best example. So you've got kind of the easy idea of antioxidants, anti-inflammation, it's influencing genetic expression, and it's also inducing our own adaptive responses in the cell. Um, which is very different to I guess some of the the stuff happening in the health space at the moment with the idea of removing plants because they're they're toxic. Um, but it's this kind of hormetic hormesis response, which is that the appropriate amount of a stress is is important. Um, same principle for exercise, same principle for fasting, uh, same in principle for hot or cold therapy. You know, there's this amazing paper that came out a few years ago talking about acquired resilience. Um, like we have acquired immunity, you get exposed to a bug, the next time you're exposed, you've got a more efficient response. It's the same sort of principle, the more you expose yourself to these little micro stresses, the more adaptive we become, the more resilient we become. Um, so yeah, that's kind of I guess an overview of these mechanisms.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think you've explained that so eloquently and and well and uh, just to summarize for for the listeners. So you've got these different potential mechanisms. One of which is quite easy to understand because I think we tend to talk about it in relation to uh, vitamin C containing green foods, for example, or fruits and vegetables in general, you have these direct antioxidant, anti-inflammatory activities. But what you've really well described is this concept of uh, plant hormesis or phytochemical hormesis, which is essentially like the analogy, a little bit of harm does you good. Not too much harm, not too little harm, but that sweet spot. And uh, the upregulation of your innate cell defense mechanisms, which uh, is via the NRF2 pathway, which I don't want to get into the the details of like keep one and how that goes into, you know, into the nucleus and then you upregulate certain genes. But basically, um, if for the listener, if you could conceptualize the nerf pathway is this cascade of different processes that are occur in response to stress. And that upregulates uh, your antioxidant and anti-inflammatory mechanisms, which has a net benefit to you, the host. And the analogy I always, I was actually explaining this to my analyst yesterday. The analogy I love to use is the one that you just mentioned of exercise. So when you exercise, that's innately a a stressful condition, like what Al does every weekend is stressing his his muscles to an nth degree. But the the net impact of that is going to be resilience because you're training the muscle to be hypertrophy, to be more resilient, and then the net benefit is actually anti-inflammatory. So it's a paradoxical uh, concept to get your head round, but one that can be applied to uh, fruits and vegetables, but also but also coffee, which I'm I'm happy to hear about.
Alex Manos: I think for me as well is a, there's another interesting theory around something called xenohormesis, without taking us down too many rabbit holes, but I think that could be, that that theory is basically that if you eat a food that's benefited from its own hermetic response, so the the resveratrol in red wine or grown coffee at altitude, by eating that food that's benefited, then you will also benefit because it will have higher compounds in itself which help protect itself from those harsh conditions. But then when you eat those compounds, those plants and those drink that coffee, then you also benefit from it. So that's a, yeah, interesting theory as well.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. Xenohormesis, I'm going to be looking that up straight away after.
Alex Manos: David Sinclair is big on it, so
Dr Rupy: There you go. David Sinclair, who's been on the podcast uh, a year and a half ago. Yeah, yeah, talking about the eight hallmarks of aging. Um, so this all very much plays in because it's about activating those stress response, those adaptive stress responses that we all have within us inside of us. So whether it is a bit of lack of food, whether it is exercise, whether it is cold shock, uh, or whether it is consuming fruits and vegetables that elicit that response, you know, all kind of plays into that um, uh, the idea of of getting to the root cause of what might be causing issues and increasing your resilience. Which is amazing.
Alex Manos: Yeah, and I'll add one thing that doesn't really get discussed in the research much, which is just the the community social element of coffee, which has got to have arguably the most potent health benefit. You know, you don't get many people having their three to four mugs of coffee in isolation a day. So whether they're at the office and they're having a quick coffee break, um, or whether it's at home with their partner or family, you know, there is that social element of coffee drinking and tea drinking obviously as well, which has to be kind of in the mix here as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. It it plays into this idea of the coffee paradox that I I only just read about this week as I was preparing for the pod, uh, about how it paradoxically raises your blood pressure and it's associated with smoking despite the lower all cause mortality. So yeah, I'm sure the community aspect definitely has some part to play in that as well as all the other mechanisms that we've discussed. Okay, so um, let's go back into the process. So you've got your coffee with the uh, high amounts of polyphenols, um, you've reduced uh, the amount of of the acrylamides, uh, you're getting to that lovely level. There's another step that you also take. So you you get your coffee independently lab tested for environmental pollutants. What where was the what why did you do that? Is is there an issue with with coffee in general or is it is it just like another layer of making it the healthiest coffee you can find?
Al Heim: So we, so yeah, we basically we tested our coffee for nine different things at independent labs. Nine different things. And one of those, so going back to your discussion on the mechanisms of coffee, one of those was on the antioxidant capacity of the coffee. And that was kind of like the the icing on the cake at the end. And when people talk about our coffee as being healthy because of the antioxidants, I do like to highlight the fact that we also tested it for eight other things and it's those that gave it that antioxidant capacity. And that's just the only mechanism that was easily measurable. So we could have measured lots of other things that were going on if if we had the the technology or the the money to do it. So the other eight things that we tested were initially it was all about focusing on finding a coffee that was highest in the healthy compounds that can be in coffee. But then also on the negative side, we tested for, so we we chose an organic coffee to begin with and then we tested it for mycotoxins, for pesticides, for um, heavy metals, for ochratoxin and aflatoxins. Because, and this isn't, um, it's not such a huge issue for everybody, but you know, there are certain people who do have quite a high body burden of say pesticides or or toxins already and it is a really big issue for them. Arguably, I'm potentially one of them. Um, but because coffee is, on the pesticide side, coffee is one of the, it's the third most sprayed crop globally with pesticides behind cotton and tobacco and neither of those you ingest. So coffee is um, yeah, it's heavily treated with pesticides. But, you know, there is some debate as to after the roasting process, how much of that ends up in your final cup of coffee. Um, but it is 50/50 the science there. And then on the mycotoxin side, like coffee, a lot of coffee is kind of transported in like the hessian sacks. It's not really looked after very well at the uh, from the end-to-end process. And another thing that we looked for through our whole process was coffee that's imported in, they're called grain pro sacks, which are inside the hessian sack, they're lined with this plastic hermetically sealed sack, which keeps the coffee really fresh and keeps any mycotoxins or any any molds out of the coffee. So that was another thing that we added to that list of 45 coffees. It had to be transported in grain pro sacks to keep it really fresh as well. So, so yeah, it's just all about kind of keeping out as much of the bad as possible. But that was kind of, you know, I I'd hate to say that that's something that everybody should worry about because that's kind of uh, you know, that's that's a mind field and and uh, and yeah, once you start worrying about those things, you really can start getting afraid of food.
Dr Rupy: Totally, yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up because I think the health anxiety uh, of of food is a real thing and I think it's growing because as more we get exposed to more information, it can be pretty uh, anxiety provoking. But I think it's also something that we have to have a pragmatic conversation with and when the science is 50/50, making those choices and actually creating, when you're in the position and you have the responsibility to put something that somebody is going to ingest, um, you know, the the way and the the method that you're taking to ensure that you're you're giving a a top quality product, if it isn't already apparent by this point, you know, it's it's very clear and you're definitely making the right decision. And you mentioned something there that I wanted to pick up on, this concept of body burden. So we had uh, Dr, no, Professor Swan on the podcast a few episodes back talking about the impact of environmental pollutants at large on a number of different uh, conditions. One of which uh, is fertility. And I think we definitely need to have uh, more open conversations without, you know, scaremongering about the ways in which we can reduce body burden. And if that is choosing a coffee that has gone through a rigorous process, something that you consume habitually, daily, two times a day, I think that's, you know, something that if you can afford it, uh, it's something to opt into. And then we need to choose a food landscape and actually vote with our pounds as to the kind of quality products that we want to see on our shelves. And I think this is a small step in that or it's a large step for for you guys, but I think in general, I think it's a a step definitely a step in the right direction.
Al Heim: Yeah, and coffee is a huge part of a lot of people's diets because there aren't many foods or drinks that you would have twice a day or three times a day every single day of your life. So it kind of it is one of the ones that it is worth choosing a better quality version of because you have so much of it in general.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, totally. I I I totally agree with that. So how I I can't imagine this whole process would have been very cheap. Uh, to get to this point. So you've done your cupping at home, you've got these uh, different plantations, you've whittled it down, you've roasted it to, you know, the perfect amount. Uh, what what was what was the next step after that? How do you come up with the name Exhale first of all?
Al Heim: Well, so the next step was around the brewing of the coffee, right? So, so aside from the the what happens at the plantation to then what happens in the roastery, the brewing of the coffee has a huge impact on what's finally makes it through to your cup of coffee. And there was a 2014 study which tested 104 espressos bought from cafes in Scotland, Italy and Spain. And they found a 31 times difference in the concentration of chlorogenic acid between the highest and the lowest. So a 31 times difference. And that's like every stage of the process magnifies that. Um, including the brewing process. So the last stage of a um, was to read the research again and try and understand what the theory was and how to brew the healthiest possible cup of coffee. And that's where then we we we kind of we we tested that theory and sent a bag of our coffee down to uh, Dr. Jan at the research lab down in Plymouth and got her to test the antioxidant power of the coffee as well. Wow. So yeah, brewing is a huge part as well. So I could talk all day about the brewing alone.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that actually with the brewing method because just to give some insight into the listeners. So I've obviously gone from store bought coffee to making coffee myself at home and I've used a variety of different um, vessels. So I used to use an Aeropress, I moved to a V60 uh, ceramic one. Uh, and now I've I've got a a beautiful espresso machine that I absolutely love. Uh, so it's right next to me. And uh, I yeah, it just brings me so much joy to have like barista quality coffee whenever I want. And it's an investment, but certainly something that's going to pay off because I don't need to go to a coffee store to enjoy. I'll go there for the communal benefits, obviously, Alex, but I'll go I'll go for uh, I'll stick with my my habitual um, coffee a day from my own machine. But so talk to us about the different brewing methods and how that might impact the benefits as well as the flavour of of the coffee.
Al Heim: So, I guess going back to how you um, originally brewed your coffee using the the drippers and the filter papers. So the kind of the most obvious um, one is the clear, the the clearest differentiator between brewing methods is that if you use a paper filter to brew your coffee, whatever it is, whether it's a Chemex, a dripper, a V60 or an Aeropress with a paper filter, that paper filter removes up to 98% of the cafestol and kahweol from the coffee. So these two really healthy compounds because they're, they're fat soluble, they're in the oils and the the paper removes those oils from the coffee. So if you're using a a paper filter in your coffee, then um, then you're not going to get the benefit of the cafestol and kahweol. Paradoxically, as as with everything with coffee, um, it is those oils and the cafestol and kahweol which have been associated with uh, coffee causing a slight increase and spike in your cholesterol levels, which is one of the reasons why coffee was bad mouthed in the in the first place. But then that also plays into the whole paradox of coffee and that coffee can cause a temporary spike in cholesterol, but then actually if you look at the the epidemiology, coffee is associated with a reduced risk of all of the the diseases that you would relate to that like coronary heart disease, cardiovascular disease, sorry. So actually long term it seems to benefit, but short term you get some kind of spike in cholesterol. Anyway, that's off on a slight different tangent. But to answer, so back to the brewing, so if you use a V60, you can get steel V60s, um, and also if you use an Aeropress, you can use a steel Aeropress. Um, but then if you're kind of like a good old cafetiere drinker or something like that, there are ways that you can tweak your brewing method to make that healthier itself. So brewing coffee is a chemical reaction, like any other chemical reaction, the amount of polyphenols that leave the beans and are absorbed into the cup of coffee is affected by certain variables. So, things like temperature speeds up a reaction. So if you brew your cafetiere with a slightly hotter temperature than usual, you're that's going to speed up the reaction and the extraction of the polyphenols and get a higher, a healthier cup of coffee. The grind size of the coffee is really important. So if you use a finer grind size of coffee, the coffee has a larger surface area, which means also a more efficient reaction and a more efficient extraction of polyphenols. And then finally, the amount of time that the coffee is in contact with the water. So if you would normally brew your cafetiere for three to four minutes, if you add an extra minute, maybe do four to five minutes, you're likely to extract more polyphenols as well. So there's lots of ways you can tweak whatever your favourite brewing method is, stick with that brewing method and then just tweak that to make it more healthier or more optimized basically.
Dr Rupy: That's epic. So, so if I explain it down for for the listener who just wants to go and buy a coffee and know that it's the healthiest uh, method of brewing to maximize the potential benefits, what what what should they go and order?
Al Heim: You know what? I would not, I would say that the healthiest possible way to brew coffee is the way that you enjoy drinking it the most because of the because of the immense joy that drinking coffee brings. I we don't want to get in the way of that at all. So what I always say is whatever your favourite way of brewing coffee is, just tweak it to make it healthier or more optimized basically using those earlier principles I mentioned.
Dr Rupy: Alex, what what what how do you take your coffee?
Alex Manos: It's just black. Yeah. So I've got I've got a metal filter, um, and I just go that way. But um, just going back to what Al said as well, you know, it's worth highlighting that most of this research is done on like ordinary bog standard coffee. So again, it doesn't have to be some sort of idealistic brewing method, etc. You know, you're getting this from um, bog standard. So then the question becomes, what are you getting from a a cherry picked so to speak, um, coffee bean. But one thing to add on the brewing, a paper I saw this morning was around um, the water that you use. And in fact, um, sort of mineral rich water can bind some of these polyphenols and reduce their presence in your coffee brew. Um, so that was quite an interesting finding.
Dr Rupy: Oh, interesting. That's so, because I I uh, I I I heard about this company, I don't know if they still exist. They were looking for funding a couple of years ago, but they were called third wave water. And I think they actually had minerals uh, like a mineral sachet that you add to your water to give a little bit more flavour to the coffee that you consume. Um, I don't know what minerals they had in it, but uh, I that's that's super interesting.
Alex Manos: Um, so I'm not sure what the takeaway message is, you know, we don't necessarily want to just be using tap water either.
Al Heim: I mean, maybe the takeaway message is that coffee actually, you don't need to add minerals to the water because coffee does have a lot of these things in it itself as well. So aside from all of these polyphenols and plant phytochemicals in the coffee, we also tested it for certain vitamins as well. And vitamin B3, for example, two cups of our coffee provides 20% of your RDA of vitamin B3, which makes it one of the highest natural sources in our diets behind meats. So you don't need it from the water, you're getting it from the coffee.
Dr Rupy: And what about milk? A lot of people have milk in their diet. Obviously, oat milk, almond milk are super popular. Does that impact the the health benefits at all?
Alex Manos: Yeah, so I think I wasn't aware of this until quite recently, but there is some evidence indicating that it can, um, but again, it seems to be a bit mixed. So, um, there is research indicating that if you add milk to your coffee, it will um, again, prevent some of the absorption of these polyphenols. Um, it isn't unanimous. Um, so again, I would probably go back to Al's point of, you know, if you enjoy adding milk and you don't enjoy a black coffee, don't stress about it.
Al Heim: So we, you know, we have this big dream of hopefully going back to Dr. Jan and the antioxidant lab and getting her to test our coffee brewed with lots of different types of milk to then see which how that impacts the um, the different types of milk impact the antioxidant capacity of the coffee. But at the end of the day, ultimately, if people want milk in their coffee, they'll choose it based on their own dietary requirements and you know, so it's kind of a hard one for us to advise what people should do, um, because people have their own kind of almost dogmatic beliefs on on milk.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And I think um, if you are going to do that, you should do it with different types of water as well after what we've just heard. That that would be really interesting to see and and certainly like uh, put that out there for people. Because I love the the the scientific approach you guys are taking uh, to figuring out what the the how best to uh, create coffee and how best to, you know, uh, consume it as well, um, with within, you know, the the realms of what people choose to do and what they find most pleasurable.
Al Heim: I'd say on that point, we've definitely not chosen the easiest or most straightforward businesses to do. And that's where kind of something we were discussing earlier, which is where, you know, what we've chosen to do here is we've chosen to take one ingredient, coffee, which is is naturally can be really rich in all of these things, you know, and and work with what's naturally in it and work with retaining as much of those healthy compounds as possible and developing as many as possible as well. Whereas the easy thing to do and what the current trend in coffee is is to take a really low quality coffee, an instant coffee, then pump it full of whatever the latest fad superfoods are, add in like up to 10 different ingredients into your coffee and then you kind of rebadge it and call it healthy. Because it's the easiest thing to do, whereas we we've decided to work with one ingredient and just like maximize the inherent kind of beauty of that one ingredient and it's kind of, it's reflective of what happens a lot across the the health and wellness and and food industry as well and it's kind of it's just the easier option is just to add things to it and
Dr Rupy: I I I agree. I I have this kind of gripe with the wellness industry in general, right? So as soon as a food is deemed to be the healthiest, whether it's watermelon, whether it's uh, kale or whatever, you know, all of a sudden you have uh, extracts of of kale like sprinkled onto some like deep fried chips and suddenly that becomes like a healthy crisp. Do you know what I mean? Or like, you know, uh, you'll look at a green drink and it's like got kale in it and you read it and it's like 5% kale, 50% apple juice, which is just pure sugar that's going to mainline to your liver. So, you know, I'm not I'm not saying that to scaremonger or to to give people anxiety about the foods that they consume, but I think we need to be more aware of that. And what you're what you're um, you're tapping into there is this trend that I've seen where you have coffee and an adaptogen or a nootropic or whatever the, you know, latest terminology that they're using, beautifully designed, well branded, looks super healthy, you know, proposed benefits of Ashwagandha or, you know, whatever. Um, but uh, um, that's uh, you know, that that's certainly a trend, I think. And I'm I'm hoping that particularly listeners to the podcast, I I think uh, are really um, clued up as to how to navigate labels. But in general, I think there is also a trend to being a lot more conscious as a consumer. So you can actually recognize, okay, this is actually a quality product because they've gone through all these different layers of whether it's testing or whether it's, you know, B Corp status or whether it's whatever, uh, to to guarantee that, you know, there's there's a lot of purpose behind it. It's not just a a fad.
Al Heim: Yeah, and coffee is a huge part of a lot of people's diets because there aren't many foods or drinks that you would have twice a day or three times a day every single day of your life. So it kind of it is one of the ones that it is worth choosing a better quality version of.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, totally. I I I totally agree with that. So how I I can't imagine this whole process would have been very cheap. Uh, to get to this point. So you've done your cupping at home, you've got these uh, different plantations, you've whittled it down, you've roasted it to, you know, the perfect amount. Uh, what what was what was the next step after that?
Al Heim: I mean, look, I think the obvious choice for the the kind of the kitchen side of the cafe would obviously be the the Doctor's Kitchen recipes. I mean, it takes us actually, it's basically what I pitched as the idea to you a few months ago where we're actually based out of a a bouldering center in Walthamstow. So we have a couple of private offices in this uh, this bouldering center, climbing center. And they have a cafe there and the cafe is just, it's well, stunningly designed cafe. It's overlooking the climbing walls. Um, it's a really healthy, active kind of vibe in there. Um, and for me, the ideal there would have been like a our kind of healthy coffee, but then also like a a kitchen serving the kind of Doctor's Kitchen type food as well and it just the environment, the food, the coffee, like all of that would be a kind of a dream whether it's now or in the future, but that's the the perfect outcome for me for this.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. No, I I see it and I would love to do something like that. I think in the future, I've been asked so many times to do some form of cafe, uh, and uh, I I would love to do that and actually create food that is optimized from the quantity of vegetables, the the different type of uh, uh, research benefits that we've put into the app as well. So all that kind of stuff, but flowing through the different options that you have. So you have a a beautiful, balanced, flavourful meal uh, that you know is is doing good for you and then uh, great coffee. Uh,
Al Heim: You could pretty much give some, you could give a the chef your app and just say, there you go, just just cook anything on this app and that would be like the ideal kitchen side of things. But no, that yeah, one day in the future maybe.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that would be amazing. Um, look guys, we we've chatted uh, for well over an hour about coffee. Uh, I think I think we've done it. We we've done coffee. But um, this is great. Honestly, this is amazing. I think if if anyone has any follow up questions, uh, I'll just direct them to you and your socials and and where you can get uh, the products and stuff. But um, this has been brilliant. Uh, I I just want to say thank you. Amazing.
Al Heim: Yeah, thanks so much for having us. It was really fun and we'll be looking forward to this one.
Dr Rupy: Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. You can find all this information and more at thedoctorskitchen.com. Download the Doctor's Kitchen app if you can. It's on iPhone. Go check it out for free. There's a seven day free trial. Uh, and also check out Exhale coffee. Uh, we're going to have a link to uh, a 40% off, I think it is, uh, two bags up to the 28th of February 2022. So if you're listening to this before then, go check it out. You'll be able to get it for almost half price. Uh, and I will see you here next time.
