Dr Rupy: There's a scene where briefly where I am protested by some vegan activists and there's a sign that it says something along the lines of Brian Kateman speaking at an animal rights conference is like Donald Trump speaking at a women's rights conference. So there's a lot lot baked in there. But I felt like, you know, I'm on your team.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests while we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: Finally, I can say I watched a genuinely balanced documentary about the food and the environment. I've seen all the classics, What the Health, Forks Over Knives, Game Changers, Food Inc, Seaspiracy and others, like Kiss the Ground, and I'm constantly asked about it on social media and by friends. The conversation usually goes like this. Did you see insert documentary name? What did you think? And invariably, I always have to point out the flaws, biases, the shock tactics, the spin. But this documentary is refreshingly different. Meet Me Halfway, meat as in meat, animal meat, produced by my guest today, Brian Kateman. And it's a documentary about finding common ground at the dinner table. It poses more questions than answers and it allows you to make your own mind up. It doesn't have a clear ideology woven through the narrative and it's more exploratory than it is explanatory or defensive. And when I was watching the movie, I made notes to pick up on with Brian when I knew I was going to interview him, the documentary host about it. But a little later in the movie, they discussed the nuance of that very topic. I didn't have many follow up questions to the answers they posed at the end of the movie because there weren't that many answers. And that's because this is super complicated. And the conversation that we're having within our own avocado toast eating echo chambers centres around idealism rather than practicality. And this is why I thought this documentary was particularly great. Brian is also co-founder and president of the Reducetarian Foundation, a non-profit organisation dedicated to reducing consumption of meat, eggs and dairy to create a healthy, sustainable and compassionate world. The Meet Me Halfway book is out next year and the Reducetarian cookbook is available already in good bookstores. And listen to the end where I reveal my favourite meat alternatives and hacks to reduce your meat consumption whilst maintaining a nutrient dense diet. And you can find all the links to the movies at thedoctorskitchen.com where you can also sign up to our weekly newsletter. I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. So on to the pod.
Dr Rupy: I would have never have understood the love for a puppy until I got mine last year, in April, I think it was, when we got little Nutmeg. And I was never a dog person, right? Never a dog person. I mean, my best friend had a puppy and he's got a picture just like that in his office, in like blown up, like full size. And I remember going to his office one day, he used to live in Miami, going to his office, I was like, don't people think you just look, you just look ridiculous with this massive puppy on your, and you're at work and you're people's boss, you know. And now I'm like looking at those puppy pictures and I'm like, I need to get one of mine, mine and put mine behind the, on the wall here because it does look, it looks a little bit like a shrine, but it, yeah, it, once you, once you fall in love with a companion animal, you, you start to get it. And by the way, Nutmeg is a very cute name. That's awesome, Nutmeg.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, she's gorgeous as well. She just, she's a cavapoo, she just never grew. So she's actually yay big, even though she's like 20 months now, she should be like three times the size. But it's perfect for London and, you know, we, we live in an apartment, but we've got the park there and it's just the best thing that ever happened to her. And I, I could have never imagined me saying that 18 months ago. And you know what, this will come up in the discussion, I guess, because Toby makes an appearance in the documentary.
Brian Kateman: That's right.
Dr Rupy: Which is why I recognise Toby there. Um, but that getting a dog and living with an animal really changed my perspective on, on me. And now I, I, I feel like I'm educated enough to know about production and how it's produced and, you know, the pros and cons of, of meat in general. But living with an animal completely changed my, my perspective. I mean, how long have you had a, had a dog yourself?
Brian Kateman: You know, I grew up with a, I grew up with a cat when I was like 10, my sister and I, um, my parents didn't want a cat and my sister and I were like, screw it, we're getting a cat. So we, so we brought a kitten home and I remember my, it took like my mum a week to get on board. Um, and then they, you know, she fell in love with, with Simba too. Um, we've had Toby and Cooper, so Toby's six years old and, and Cooper's about two. And I did not want a dog. Um, my, my now wife, Isabelle, wanted one and I thought, you know, it's going to be so much work, like I'm doing all these cool things. Um, and I remember even a couple days after, I'm going to, we're going to lose some, some listeners with this comment, but I remember a couple days after being like, we still could find like a really great home for Toby. Like it doesn't have to be our home. You know, we can make sure this dog is really happy. Uh, and then like within a week or two, I was, you know, over the moon and I got it and it's completely worth it. Um, but yeah, you know, we abstractly think about animals, non-human animals as being very different from us. And in some ways they are, of course, but they also have personalities and joys and and lows and, and, um, I mean, to me, dogs are very similar to babies. They're very innocent. They're just sort of bundles of joy and it's our responsibility to be stewards of, of their life. And, um, yeah, it's a really, really wonderful experience for anyone who hasn't really bonded with an animal before. But I, I think a lot of people have and sometimes it just takes, uh, you know, thinking about other animals outside of dogs and cats and extending that kind of generosity to others.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I, um, I have my partner to, uh, to thank as well for, uh, getting the dog because I was dead set against getting a dog. I was like, this is going to be way too much work and I don't have time and I'm, you know, and everything else. But you, you end up working around them and you make it work. And when you allow that, that being to come into your life, they can just provide so much joy. Um, anyway, I could spend the rest of the podcast just talking about dogs, but we're going to move on. Tell me a bit about, um, your background and your and where you grew up and stuff. You you touch a bit on it in the documentary, um, which I thought was excellent, by the way, and we'll get to the reasons why I just think it's such a good documentary and it's so telling the amount of effort you you put into it and and why I think it's better than most documentaries I've seen. Um, the popular ones that people will have heard of. But yeah, tell me a bit about like your background and and where you grew up and stuff.
Brian Kateman: Well, thanks for those comments about Meet Me Halfway. I'm really excited about the documentary. Um, I grew up in Staten Island, New York, and for those who know, um, Staten Island, it's sort of the, it's called the forgotten borough. It's kind of often the joke of New York City. It's not a particularly progressive place. Um, I didn't grow up with a lot of swanky plant-based restaurants around. I didn't know, um, really, let alone any vegans or vegetarians, really people who didn't go to McDonald's and Burger King and, you know, very, very often. If it was a special treat, my parents would go to Applebee's and Chili's and these, you know, popular chain restaurants, um, in the United States. But one of the parts I really did like growing up, um, in Staten Island was there was a lot of nature. There was a lot of natural spaces and green trails. And as a young kid, that's kind of where I fell in love with the environment and specifically the animals in the wild. I was fascinated by squirrels and raccoons and birds. Uh, and so when I got to college, uh, I was your sort of typical card carrying environmentalist. I would tell people that they should recycle and compost and walk instead of drive and not use plastic bottles and so on. Um, but, uh, eventually I made the connection to food. I was actually on my way to present some undergraduate research on climate change with some classmates. And you have to imagine this, I'm genuinely on a plane eating a hamburger. And a friend of mine who I think gave it to me with a sense of sincerity because he knows I'm interested in these sort of philosophical ideas, gave me this book called The Ethics of What We Eat by Peter Singer and Jim Mason. And that was really the first time that I made the connection to food. Um, you know, uh, it was the first time I realised that many of my food choices weren't aligned with my values. I was eating food that was not kind to animals and not, uh, kind to the environment and certainly not kind to my health. And I'm happy to go into to more detail about, um, any of this, but essentially that was really a light bulb moment for me and growing up in Staten Island certainly played a key role in in shaping my, um, relationship to food.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And and have you, so I'm I'm assuming you don't, it's it's clear in the in the documentary that you are vegan, but is that, is that something that you still practice now? Do you do you eat vegan? Have you have you always been a vegan now since then?
Brian Kateman: I actually wouldn't describe myself as vegan. I would say that I try to be as vegan as possible. Um, I don't worry about, um, the occasional inclusion of animal products in my diet. And, you know, here's really the the nuts and bolts of of all this, right? It's like, um, I don't like factory farming. Uh, I'm very concerned about the way we raise animals for food. Very few people like factory farming. You put lots of animals in, uh, very small spaces, you know, birds can barely move, pigs can't walk around, very cruel conditions, very destructive to the environment. You have to clear land, emits lots of CO2 emissions, uses a ton of water and other natural resources and so on. And these products are not healthy. I mean, these highly processed foods are not good for people. Um, but most people are not going to go vegan or vegetarian, uh, including my parents, who I love very much. And growing up in Staten Island, very few people I knew in Staten Island would have any shot of thinking they're going to go vegan or vegetarian. And the question I ask myself is, what can we do instead? And, um, my view is what we can do instead is move away from this all or nothing premise that a person is either a vegan or an omnivore. And I take that with respect to my own lifestyle. Um, I do my absolute best to try and eat as many foods that are kind to my body, the planet and animals. But, um, what's often difficult for people who care a lot about issues is to let go of being perfect and to, um, try to let go of the guilt and the judgment of ourselves and of others. And that's really, um, something that I'm sure I'll continue to struggle with because I'm human, but I do my best. And so I try to eat as many plant-based foods, um, as possible and that's really my my current diet.
Dr Rupy: You know, my favourite bit in the movie, I think, was in the first 10 minutes when you have a really poignant and authentic conversation with your parents. And like you described, you know, your parents are, I would say, perhaps typical of the Staten Island area. They, you know, you weren't judgmental, it wasn't shaming. And I think there were so many opportunities for someone to act in that way, even if they were trying to be as loving as possible. But, you know, to give some context to the listeners, you mentioned something about avocado toast and they were like, what on earth is avocado toast? And most people listening to this in our echo chamber will also think, what on earth, how do they not know about avocado toast? But that's the majority of people, particularly in America, who have no idea about the impact of factory farming. Or if they do, they don't make the connection between the environmental impact, as you, as your parents didn't either. And they question it because they, they want to continue to do things that are considered quote unquote normal to them. Um, but I thought that was perhaps the most telling bit of the, of the documentary and something that we certainly have to have more of a conversation about. And this is why I love the whole, uh, the whole aspect of reducetarianism for want of a better word because I, I think, um, yeah, we need to embrace that a lot more.
Brian Kateman: I really appreciate that and my dad still feels like a superstar, so I'm going to let him know you were, you were happy with that scene. Um, yeah, reducetarian is anyone, right, who's decided to cut back on the amount of animal products that they consume and kind of letting go of this all or nothing premise. I'm so grateful for my parents, um, and in many ways, but this way in particular in the context of this conversation is that they really ground me. As you say, it's very easy to get lost in our own little bubbles and echo chambers and it's, it can be frustrating to surround yourself with people who, um, in some ways fundamentally disagree with your major outlooks on life, but it's super useful. And I really encourage people, um, not to block that person on Facebook that has a different view than them, to read news sources, um, you know, and that are not necessarily exactly in their, in their politics, for example, because it's very useful for, for, for thinking about how to go about making change. And, um, yeah, my parents, uh, you know, had never had guacamole before. And I wasn't that surprised by this, but my director was shocked. I remember at the grocery, we're, we're at the grocery store and he's, you know, he's like, uh, we got to make them like this elaborate meal and do something really fun. I was like, dude, this, they had McDonald's probably right before this. Like there's no elaborate meal. We're going to scare them off if we throw, you know, this like really complicated salad. We got to go something simple. And I think I just happened stantially picked up, you know, this tub of of guacamole. Uh, and it made for an amazing scene because you can feel the legitimate fear, um, particularly in my mum, but also my dad, uh, and the anxiety in trying a food that they're not accustomed to, expecting that they're not going to like it, in part because they're, they're, they were right, their taste buds are, are so accustomed to highly salted and fatty and sugary foods that they're probably not going to like something that, that's significantly more whole and natural. Uh, and I think it's a shocking scene to a lot of people, but, um, very, very informative and useful in thinking about how we're going to, um, address the systemic issues we have in terms of people's diets. And so, and then yeah, as you said, you know, the cool thing on this is my dad doesn't necessarily care about environmental issues or animals. And this is important to, to think about, right? Because what message are we going to provide to people? And I wish he did, but he does care about his health. And so what I have found is I try to lean into that message as much as possible with my parents and maybe for a younger generation, um, who, you know, is not necessarily thinking about heart disease at 17, but might be thinking about the climate crisis, uh, you lean into that messaging. So factory farming is so destructive in so many ways that we do have an opportunity to leverage these different, um, points of messaging for different audiences. But, um, yeah, it's, it's super interesting to, um, to hang out and know people who, um, have a completely different mindset and we're going to have to find a way to, to reach common ground because it's the only way forward. And that's really, um, as you've implied, uh, an important ethos of the film.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. And you, the reason why I loved it so much is because that mirrors a lot of the conversation that I have with patients one on one. So I, you know, when I work clinically, I'm not seeing the same kind of person that might listen to this podcast or have a genuine interest in nutritional medicine or follow my recipes or buy my cookbooks. I'm having a genuine conversation with someone who's come there obviously for a health issue and different people of different ages have different motivators. And like you said, you know, you leaned into your dad's motivation to be healthy. Um, and I think even at the end of the film, he was like, I didn't even realise how unhealthy I was until I actually started reducing meat and I, you know, I lost all this weight and I feel great now. So, you know, sometimes they don't even know that that's something that they need to do in order to feel better and they don't realise how, how poorly they feel. But to, to that point, everyone has different motivators and I don't think the vegan message, and this is nothing against plant-based individuals or plant-based professionals, we've had a whole bunch on this podcast as well. Um, I don't think that brand is appropriate for the vast majority of people that I come across. So if I was to say, you know, you need to remove all animal products, it's not ethical, it, uh, isn't good for the environment, it's not going to be good for future generations, all all the points, it will fall on deaf ears and it'll be frustrating for both parties, as it was in, in some cases for the people that you interviewed, I thought.
Brian Kateman: I, I mean, I would go say it's not a question of think, the facts are there. I mean, 1% of the, let's take the, you know, 1% of the United States is vegan. Half of those people probably include some amount of animal products in their diet. They were just like me and didn't have a word to describe themselves as someone who occasionally includes animal products in their diet. I mean, one of the, the, the things I laugh, I laugh at every time I think about the film is when my parents are talking about how pizza, they think as, as a health food. And I'm like, who says this? You know, who told you this? And their reaction is scientists said this. And I'm sure there's, there was, you know, lots of advertising and campaigning. And then it's related to what you do. Um, one of the interviewees talked about how medical, you know, professionals and, and doctors often, um, don't necessarily talk about diet. And I'm sure there are interesting reasons for that. Maybe you have perspective on that. But it's something that I'm, I'm grateful for that what you do because I think that, um, you know, there's just, it's, if someone has, uh, let's say, stomach issues and they're eating really unhealthy food, well, have you tried eating more fiber, but instead go straight to the medication. Um, but at the same time, someone like my mum, who's very resistant to change, is not, she still hasn't made any changes to her diet. So it is a really difficult questions and, and by the way, telling someone to eat less meat, as you know from seeing the film, also is, is a challenging task. Any kind of change is hard, but I agree, um, that asking people to give up all the foods that they love, all the memories, associations, forget that hot dog at the baseball game, no more turkey at the Thanksgiving table. I mean, when you really boil that down on an emotional level, it, it becomes so obvious how, um, alienating that kind of message can be to a lot of people, which is unfortunate because the vegan message has merit to it in terms of its kindness to animals and and it's aspirations toward being kinder to the planet, uh, and so on. So these are tricky, tricky questions and I think it comes across on the documentary that there are no simple solutions and that this is a really, really challenging, but I'm grateful for people that care and are doing the best that they can with respect to their own choices and encouraging others to, um, make choices that are in line with their values.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, you know, the Americans are actually a little bit ahead when it comes to teaching nutrition to their medical students. Um, we've had a couple of docs on who talk about the culinary medicine programs at Tulane and Columbia and, uh, Harvard Public School of Medicine have got one as well. Um, and we're trying to mimic what they're doing over here in the UK, uh, in a couple of universities that we've, we've got a nonprofit in. Um, and I, I wonder, you know, the documentary, it starts with, um, you know, the scientist who talks about how climate change is irreversible and it, and it, it gives me the impression that this is going to be one of those inconvenient truth movies where a whole bunch of scientists talk about how the earth is doomed in the next 10, 15 years. And then the, the, you know, the message at the end is just go vegan or just do this or just do regenerative farming. Um, but it, it, it obviously morphs into something a lot more relatable and a lot more nuanced. I, I, my question when that happened, because I was thinking about it from a film production perspective, did you envisage the documentary looking something quite different to what it ended up looking like prior to starting it?
Brian Kateman: I'm laughing because making a film was, was one of the hardest things I've ever done. It took, you know, it took five years. Um,
Dr Rupy: It took five years. Oh my God.
Brian Kateman: I'm 32 and I've, you know, uh, when I started doing this work, I was in my early 20s, but I still have no clue what I'm doing. I mean, it's just this kind of, you just figure it out as you go along and you make an ambitious goal. And it's kind of amazing that it can, it can, it can come together. Um, but no, I had no clue what the film was going to be. I said, I want to make a film. I know I want it to be about, you know, getting people to eat less meat. Um, originally the film started as this kind of like, I, I would almost call it like a puff piece. We were going to like, you know, find people and get them to eat fewer animal products and see what their journey would like and go visit, go to grocery stores and the kind of things you've, you know, you've probably seen and it was going to take a kind of very simple, um, agenda. And what I found as we were going through the experience was that there was no way to tell this, this story in an honest, truthful way without showing the complexities and the different opinions. And I, it's funny, I entered this movement feeling really confident. I was, I maybe it was because I was 23 and I thought I had all the answers. And I was very simple. It was like, stop telling people to go vegan, tell them to eat less meat, all the problems will be fixed, very simple. And I quickly learned that that's not right. It's just not the case. Telling people to do anything is challenging and there's all these societal forces that, you know, make the default choice often ones that are not in the interest of of people and animals and the environment. And so that, thankfully, I had that growth at the right time because we were able to pivot and say, let's really ask a different question here. Why is it so difficult to get people to eat less meat? Let's start there because every documentary you see is, it's so easy to get people to go vegan. Just, you know, eat more plants and you'll be, you'll be really fit and healthy and beautiful and all these things. And it, and I know they become very popular these documentaries and they certainly resonate with some segment of the population. But I also have other, I have friends who are from Staten Island who don't see these films and they don't change their diet, doesn't resonate with them. Um, and so, um, yeah, we entered from that perspective. You know, there's so many things that I didn't expect, right? Like there's a scene where I go visit pigs that are on their way to, to, to slaughter. And I remember telling my director, I really don't want to do this. Like this sounds awful. It's very outside my comfort zone. And you can see on camera, I'm genuinely, um, uncomfortable because it's a terrible, you know, thing to witness. And even hanging out with, you know, Will, who I think the world of, the farmer in, um, in Bluffton, Georgia, such a cool person. Um, what a weird experience for me. Like I'm a kid from Staten Island. Here I am hanging out in, you know, what feels to me like the middle of nowhere, um, you know, with, with this amazing farmer who's awesome accent and these animals on the farm. And so, you know, I've benefited a little from being somewhat sheltered because you see an authentic growth in me over time. And that's why the film, um, changed so much over the years because as I was learning, I was, we were adapting our thinking accordingly. And, um, I still learn new things, um, but I do feel like, you know, um, if I had made the film at that five-year point, it would have been much less informed, uh, and much more, um, biased and sort of single issued and, yeah, so that's, that's, but yes, making a film is insane and, um, it's not for the faint of heart.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's amazing. What a revelation that it took five years and it's almost like I can see that journey from in the space of like an hour and 20 minutes, however long it was. Um, because it's, it, when you watch a typical documentary, the, the stance is sort of already made up and then the rest of the film is just there to further and further convince you towards an argument that's already been predetermined. Whereas this one, you didn't really know where it was going, actually, because at the start, um, I mean, it looks like you're, you were pretty ostracized by the vegan community. Uh, I'm not too sure if that's still the case. I mean, you do get a lot of stick from people because they don't, you don't really ascribe to their, their sort of rules or their beliefs and stuff and they, they believe it's like an attack on on their principles. Is that fair to say?
Brian Kateman: You know, it's tricky. There definitely is a segment of the vegan community that though extremely well-meaning and in some ways has the, you know, the morality backing them, um, has a no tolerance for anything that deviates from that kind of message. And there's a, there's a scene where, um, briefly where I am protested by, um, some vegan activists and there's a sign that, um, it says something along the lines of, um, Brian Kateman speaking at an animal rights conference is like Donald Trump speaking at a women's rights conference. Um, so there's a lot lot baked in there. Um, but I felt like, you know, I'm on your team, you know, there's a whole other group of people who you really take issue with. On the other hand, so many nice vegans, so many welcoming vegans, so many understanding vegans, um, um, don't care about purity or just working to make. So it's a, you know, sometimes those loud voices can, um, can outshine the more, um, pragmatic ones. But yeah, definitely not, not, uh, I mean, the reality is everyone has had the experience of meeting one person who shames them for their diet. And I don't know about you, anytime I've been shamed, you know, I just have these like defense mechanisms and I just, I psychologically don't, don't necessarily think it works. Um, but,
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I, I'm lucky in that, um, I don't think I've ever really been truly attacked personally, uh, or in real life, if I'm honest, um, about my thoughts. I mean, I, I'm plant focused. I've never made, um, any deviation from that over the last, you know, 10 years since I've been taking a further interest in nutrition. Um, you know, I, I ascribe principles like eating whole foods, eating colourful, eating more fiber, uh, reducing meat and eating quality meat. Um, but my, my, my diet is very, very plant-based, around 85, 90%. Um, but people do mistake, uh, me for being vegan because most of my recipes are vegetarian. And when they find out, it can be, I can understand why it irks them a bit. It's almost like, oh, you tricked me somehow. But I've, I, I always make it very clear in any of my writing and on the podcast and all that kind of stuff. Um, and my experience probably mimics yours in a lot of ways in that the vast majority of people that I've met who eat a certain way are very respectful and very tolerant and very understanding and they choose a different way and that's totally fine. Um, but there, there is a minority and unfortunately those are loud voices that can cloud a lot of, uh, the sort of brand of vegan. I, I mean, I, I actually had a conversation with a good colleague of mine who's a doctor and I, and I mentioned about how veganism appears to have a bit of a branding problem because of those loud voices and I think it's unfortunate for the vast majority of people who don't have that sort of aggressive nature, particularly online. Um, but yeah, no, I, I, I try to steer clear of any conversations about that apart from on a podcast where I can speak to someone who's, uh, who's pretty tolerant themselves.
Brian Kateman: Yeah, no, it's, it's true and you know, I, I think when I think about, look, I come from the place of in the United States and I know similar statistics, I'm sure in the UK and and many other developed nations. In the United States, the average person eats 225 pounds of meat per year. Okay? So this is the most in recorded history. So when I meet someone, let's say like Brian, who's speaking at the moment, who eats a couple of pounds of meat per year, and as you said, 90% of their diet is plant-based, even if I thought the ideal world would be vegan, even if I thought everyone should be vegan, from a limited time and resources perspective, it makes no sense to try to convince you or me to go vegetarian or vegan. We're already very far along. And I think people lose perspective of that in part because they don't have people like my parents hanging around where the big wins is to get someone who's eating way too many animal products, indisputably from a, from a health and scientific perspective, from an environmental perspective, and of course, from a moral perspective, to cut back by 10% or 20%. My dad going from 200 pounds of meat a year to 180 pounds of meat a year is huge because 20 pounds is a lot because you and I probably don't eat 20 pounds of meat a year. And so it's simply from a strategic perspective, um, you know, I think I agree that there's too much fixation and obsession with, with purity. And that's really how this started for me. I hated that I would describe myself as a vegetarian and I would be in certain social situations like at Thanksgiving where my dad is like, just have a damn piece of turkey, Brian, and I pop a, you know, a small piece of turkey in my mouth and my, my sister as siblings will do is, you know, kind of pokes fun at me, you know, hey Brian, I thought you were a vegetarian. Um, or, you know, I have a friend who leaves a piece of meat on his plate and the waiter takes the plate away and I'm like, I really miss eating this and I pop it in my mouth. And whether or not I should or shouldn't, it's so silly to get caught up in these couple of moments and lose sight of the fact that, you know what, I'm trying. I'm doing my, I really am. I'm doing my best here versus a lot of people I'm surrounded by who for whatever reasons, many of them not entirely their fault, again, because of these systems, are not necessarily trying at all. So there's, there's so much power in reframing the focus from the couple of people, and by percentages, they really are a couple of people who are primarily eating a plant-based diet versus the majority of people who are eating the, what I would call the standard American diet. And so, yeah, it's a tricky stuff, but I think it's useful, useful framework for thinking about how we can engage and have conversations with the right people. I would never try to persuade you of anything. You're already doing great.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, it reminds you of this, uh, the part of, uh, Jonathan Safran Foer's, I think it's his last book, um, We Are the Weather. Um, he was on the podcast last year and he almost has like this internal monologue with himself where he's beating himself up because he had a hamburger at an airport and he's like, he's meant to be, you know, this, this whole vegan advocate and he wrote eating animals and he's convinced a whole bunch of other people to eat a certain way and he's going, do you know what I mean? So there's this internal monologue because you try and, uh, paint this picture to yourself and other people that you should be, um, pretty puritanical about things. But in reality, when it comes to day-to-day, you know, if you do want to have a piece of meat, you shouldn't be feeling judged around it. And also, it does feed into this phenomena of, um, orthorexia, this, this unhealthy obsession with healthy eating. Um, and I think, uh, certain aspects of diet definitely feed into that negative spiral thinking that can lead to shame, um, which is, you know, something that we want to try and avoid at all costs because that certainly over the pandemic has really magnified, um, and that's been perpetuated, I think, by social media too. Um, so yeah, it's, uh, it's an interesting, uh, perspective. Sorry.
Brian Kateman: No, I, I totally agree and, you know, I often say what we put in our mouth is very important, but what comes out of it is also very important. And what I mean by that is when we're thinking about food, because it's so intimate, because we, we many of us have control over it, we do feel that guilt and shame because we want to live a life that's in line with our values and and so on. But, you know, voting for the, for a better politician or donating money to a charity or volunteering at an organisation or bringing one vegan meal over to your friend's potluck, that's going to be so much more impactful, right, than that one hamburger that you had at the airport. And so it's hard because we're human, but trying to keep perspective, I think, of the bigger mission because it's not just about our own individual bodies. There's a, there is quite frankly a lot at stake here. The one of the my favourite lines in the film, uh, Dr. David Katz says, there are no healthy people on an uninhabitable planet. And so, yes, food is personal, um, but it does involve the exploitation of others, um, and the planet. And so, yeah, I think that is a, is just a helpful reminder that there's also issues at stake outside of our cholesterol levels. This is a combination for people that, you know, maybe are not like my dad who, who can, who can entertain some of these other, other perspectives all at the same time.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, people see me as the food is medicine guy. Uh, but I, I try and remind them through, um, posting the odd, like, you know, jelly babies that I'll eat when I'm working clinically or like, you know, the warm donut with a jam filling that I think is absolutely amazing. And I, you know, I'll post that like once a week just to remind people that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can have a bit of balance, um, within the confines of, you know, the general 80/20 rule or something. Um, I, I did want to ask you about your, your experience at White Oak, um, which for the listeners who haven't seen the documentary is this incredible farm that looks like the blueprint of how we should be rearing animals, um, for food, um, for those who want to eat animals. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about the experience because that, that was, um, that was a quite a raw experience, I thought.
Brian Kateman: Yeah, you know, visiting White Oak Pasture and hanging out with, with, uh, with Will, um,
Dr Rupy: who had the most amazing accent, by the way. If I only, I could only aspire to have an accent like Will. He's just got the incredible southern draw, which makes it sound amazing.
Brian Kateman: For like a year after meeting him, I would just occasionally try to bring that out in my conversations with, with people, but no, no one can, no one can do it justice because he's that awesome. Um, it was a really, really important, um, and meaningful experience in my life because it was really the Disney World of, of farms. I mean, except it was entirely sort of authentic and real and, and not corporatized and so on. Um, but just, um, a person who was very much engaged in a factory farming model that he had inherited from, um, other farmers, um, you know, in his generation, prior to his generation, and decided that he wanted to, um, reinvent and go back to a simpler kind of farming, one that's more in touch with the land, one that cultivates the soil in ways that it sequesters carbon and increases water capacity, increases organic matter, uh, one that includes animals, uh, as part of that regenerative system, but is very kind to them and allows them to express their, and see like there's no language can capture this, right? When I say very kind and I compare it to factory farming, there's no words to divide torture and very kind, right? It's hard for me to articulate this, but the factory farming model is so abusive to animals that when you then go to White Oak Pastures and you see these animals who, you know, and I told this to Isabelle, I was like, you know, in some ways they have better lives than Toby and Cooper. We do the absolute best we can. We take them on three walks, we love them, but these animals have it made, really happy. It was so heartening to see. Um, the, the challenge, right, with this is a couple of things. And really just to frame this discussion, what I'm asking now is if, if people are not going to cut back on animal products, what are the alternatives that we can offer them? And one of these alternatives is meat that doesn't come from a factory farm, that is kind to animals, kind to the planet. Um, it may even taste better and even have, you know, small, small health benefits. Uh, and so, um, the downside though is that it's expensive, right? Because factory farming is optimized to, you know, be very cheap. And there's slaughter involved. So there's still going to be the death of, of a living animal. And now we get into interesting philosophy because, okay, is it ever okay to kill? Maybe not, but maybe it is because these animals had incredible lives up until that moment. And Will makes this point that, uh, you know, he's seen people die very slowly and gradually. Um, and I'm kind of like one of these right to die people even. I mean, now we're in a whole another topic, right? But like I'm into the idea that people shouldn't have to, you know, suffer for 40 years before the end of their life. So things can get kind of odd and philosophical. But at the end of the day, if someone is going to eat meat, um, this is a whole another, um, um, way of, of, of engaging, um, with animal products. And I'm really grateful for Will and his kindness and generosity and and showing me around. And I even think to myself just to bring this home, right? Like my, my wife's parents may be visiting for Thanksgiving and I'm not sure that I can convince them to have this meal be vegan. So I have an opportunity now. Do I let them bring over their, you know, a typical turkey and maybe we'll make it? Or do I pull on what feels like a conflict in my mind, but maybe I order a turkey from Will's farm as a way to, to balance out those, those interests. So, yeah, I really, I, I think people will love that, that scene with Will, who's an incredible person and, and the farming, uh, that he does is just, I think like one of the probably, if not the best, one of the best, um, farms in the world. Really cool stuff.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I, I think that's, you know, something that you, you bring to light at the end of the movie as well, where you wrap things up because you, you know, you, you visit cell-based, um, meat, uh, producers, you meet the, you know, the Beyond Meat guys and all the other, uh, people that are creating purely plant-based proteins. But you question everything. It's not like, oh, this is the answer. And there have been some fantastic documentaries that I think are great collectively because it makes people more conscious about food that they're eating, right? I can, I can definitely, uh, get on board with, with that. But I think where they fall down, particularly amongst the scientific community, is that it is communicated in a way whereby the answer is always just do this and that's fine. Even, you know, the ones that are pro-regenerative farming, it's like, oh, just, let's just go for this, um, amazing crop rotation system. It sequesters carbon, it's much better for the environment. You can still eat good quality meat, it has some nutritional benefits over, uh, factory farm meat. Um, this is all you need to do. Whereas actually at the end of yours, you're like, well, cell-based meats might actually cost more to the environment and they, they definitely cost a lot more money right now. Plant-based proteins still have their own issues with additives and etc, etc. The regenerative farming model that you saw, the most perfect animal farm, you know, ethics aside, um, how scalable is that? You, in, so you allow the viewer to make up their own mind after watching it. So somebody who has a persuasion that still wants to eat meat might do better and might reduce their food intake. Someone who's vegan, you know, questions just how, what, questions the quality of the foods that they're currently consuming and and weighs that up against climate change as well, because those are conversations that a lot of people aren't having. So I think that, you know, it is a very, it's, I, for some people, I think it'll be frustrating because they just want to know the answer and we're quite binary humans. I don't know if that was like one of the comments that you've got after, after showcasing it to people.
Brian Kateman: I, you know, I didn't want to interrupt you because I love everything you said and that's like speaks to my heart. I mean, what you just described is really the core feeling I have right now in life, um, and, and with this film. Um, it's frustrating, but there really are often no simple answers and there are pros and cons and different values that are in conflict with one another. And, you know, I, and I know it's not a, you know, a political show here, but I also see this with my, you know, I have some, I'm liberal, I have some conservative friends and the, the many of my smartest friends are not crazy. They're on a different political spectrum, but they actually have similar values to me and they just have a different method for reaching that utopia. And I, the more I hang out with people who are different than me, I start to see a kind of, um, possibility of working together and it's just, it's the same thing with food conversations, which can be so charged and so heated. And, um, yeah, there are pros and cons to all of these different solutions and you, you outlined, um, many of them brilliantly. And I think it is hard because people do want to be told what to do. They don't have a lot of time to spend, like I have 10 years thinking about these complex topics and they just want to know, you know, I hear you, but is it like Brussels sprouts or kale going to have more antioxidants or, uh, you know, um, is it better to eat fish or chicken from an animal welfare perspective? I teach a class and I'm, uh, at a university and one of the students said, yeah, I hear you, but which is healthier, farmed fish or wild, uh, wild caught fish? And I have to spend 10 minutes explaining that it's, it's complicated. It's not one is healthier or other. There's different, um, different components here. So I think it will frustrate some people, but at least it gives people the information and tools that they need to think about this. And the good news, very few people think factory farming is a good idea. Very few people think that we should be eating over 200 pounds of meat a year. Very few people think it's good that, you know, in the United States, one out of 10 people get the recommended amounts of fruits and vegetables in their diet. And this is what frustrates me so much. We agree on so much, so much, but we get caught up in these fringe, you know, philosophical, idealistic kinds of conversations about what the future of our food system looks like. Can we just make it a tiny bit better? That would be great to start. And then after that, we can start getting into these really fancy debates. And I feel this way quite, quite frankly about, about the health community. We just need more people to eat fruits and vegetables. It's really like pretty simple. No, isn't that the cornerstone of, of part of the problem is that people are eating way too many processed foods, not whole foods, not enough fruits and vegetables. And there's so many books and discussions and debate and for the most part, people agree on that. And yet my parents still will not eat a damn avocado. It's like that basic. Yeah. Sorry, I'm getting, I'm getting heated here.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, I, I, I totally, it definitely resonates with me. Um, you know, part of my TED talk, uh, when I, when we did it a couple of years ago now, was painting the picture of nutrition conflicts, um, whereby 80% roughly, let's say, of all the different dietary regimens actually overlap. So if you have this Venn diagram and you put paleo and vegan and all the rest of it, a lot of the overlapping themes are the same. So instead of fighting about the minority, you should really just focus it down to the principles. And then, you know, the solutions are simple, the science is complex, implementation is exceptionally hard. Um, so where I'm having conversations with hospital caterers, or I'm having conversations with people, uh, in public sector, um, food environments, um, you know, creating a landscape where it's easy to opt in to a healthy way of eating, that's really the challenge, um, creating like a salutogenic environment where you can have, you know, if you don't want avocados, you can have like fresh tomatoes or you can have all the different things and we actually incentivize that and we subsidize those kind of foods rather than the high fructose corn syrup and all the other additives that we have to processed foods right now that are cheap and targeted at the most vulnerable people. Um, so yeah, there's definitely, and I think also, um, given the, the movie was focused on the US, I think there's also, um, a bit of an arrogance amongst the UK residents that this is an American problem and it's not a UK problem. But like you just mentioned there, most of the factories are actually, uh, most of meat is produced from factory farms. Maybe not as bad as the US, but certainly factory farms over here as well that we just, we don't really see or we don't really hear about that much.
Brian Kateman: Oh yeah, there are plenty of terrible factory farms in the UK. No, they're they're everywhere and they're and they're growing and I unfortunately, I expect that they will continue to grow as people go through that demographic transition of, you know, rising out of poverty and being able to eat more foods, which in, you know, expensive foods, which is a from one perspective is a really good thing. But the factory farming model is not the, is not the, uh, the answer to that. Um, oh, I had something at the tip of my tongue that I was really excited to, to respond to you about. Um, oh, I was going to say this. Um, you're, you know, you're, you're smarter than me and you've, you've landed on some, some probably this much sooner than me. But I thought as, like, you just tell people they do things, but it's about this designing the environment, right? So people eat food based on price, on taste and convenience. And so if food is not affordable, delicious and available readily, very few solutions are are going to work. And so that's where thinking about these systemic solutions, um, some of which we've talked about, like, you know, regenerative agriculture or plant-based meat and cell-based meat and making, you know, affordable fruits and veggies and so on accessible plays a key role. What I, what I, what I struggle with is, you know, getting people to try the foods and then give it a little bit of time because I know with me, like when I had this ethical realisation, I had pasta for like a month because I didn't know that like I could ever eat kale or quinoa or other things. And it, it took me, my wife took me to have Indian food and Thai food for the first time, you know, in my mid 20s. Um, and now it's like these are my favourite cuisines. So I don't know what your experience is like, but I just, it's that that's a challenge I find is even if you provide these fruits and vegetables and so on for people, it's going to take them time to, I think, allow their taste buds to change. And that's something that that Dr. David Katz said off camera was that it takes a couple weeks and then your taste buds kind of transform. So I don't know if we want to solve all the world's problems on this podcast discussion, but that's another one that I find find quite, quite challenging. And I see it in my dad who now will call me once a week with his kale smoothie that he really, really loves. Um, so like change is possible, but it took, you know, it took, I'm 32, it took 30 years of stubbornness with my, my dad to, uh, to get him to change.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. I certainly true that your taste buds are certainly, um, plastic. Uh, they, they can change. Um, but if you're constantly, um, being hit with dopamine, uh, from the sugar that we know, you know, elicits that dopaminergic response, you're going to create a habit around it. As some people call it addicted to food. I know that's quite triggering for people, but it's essentially what's happening. You are becoming dependent on this dopamine hit from sugar and, and refined foods that are designed to be hyper palatable, um, uh, calorie rich and, and unfortunately nutrient poor. Um, so when you take yourself off, quote unquote, uh, those kind of foods and you introduce other foods that are more bitter in terms of their, their palatability and taste, there is a transition period that you have to get through. And I think for certain people, um, getting over that hump could be weeks, it could be a little bit longer. Um, there could be some, you know, challenging, uh, symptoms in the meantime as well. It's almost like, you know, we're talking about getting people off certain foods. I'm actually going to be chatting to food, uh, about food addiction, uh, on a podcast with a psychologist soon, actually. Um, but I, I guess also my worry, um, like you just mentioned with the, the pasta, uh, comment, is a lot of, um, impressionable young people are warming towards veganism or plant-based eating because it's cool and they aspire to be like their Tik Tok stars or the celebrities that have all gone plant-based, who can afford to have a beautiful, well-balanced diet that's made by a nutritionist, that is supplemented with all the right supplements and stuff. Whereas, you know, most people don't have access to that information, can't afford the supplements and might find themselves on a pretty nutrient poor diet of just like pasta because they don't really have the other options. Or they might go for the, you know, new McDonald's vegan burger, which is, you know, it doesn't have the processed meat, but it's still not great. Um, so that, that's one of my worries and one of my quandaries around this whole movement towards plant-based eating. Have you been asked about that before?
Brian Kateman: Yeah, definitely. And I think for a lot of people, um, the answer for them comes from a place of how cynical or optimistic they are about our ability to transform our food system from a place that, um, is along this axiom of highly pragmatic to highly ideal. And when I think of this person who's eating no longer eating, you know, uh, processed meats all the time, but now switches to pasta, their health might not be better, but the environmental impact and the animal cruelty component is better versus if I, you know, and you could kind of play these different factors out. And of course, it would be ideal if, you know, that person ate whole plant-based foods and maybe supplemented with some animal products, but wasn't eating pasta or wasn't eating the Beyond burger all the time. And I think it comes from this question, you know, um, my dad will have a kale smoothie once in a while and I'm really excited about that. But he probably would have Beyond Meat a lot because it tastes still, still relatively salty, still fatty and so on. It's not equivalent to a health perspective from a kale to kale. Uh, and so the question is, should I and we ask for more from people and and expect more and hope more and push for more, or should we be happy with settling for something that's, that's great from an environmental perspective, phenomenal on an animal welfare perspective, marginally better maybe from a health perspective. And you might say to me, well, why are you doing this, Brian? Let's, why, why stop there? Let's do it all. And I say to that, go ahead. Let's, let's, let's push all of these solutions and all these agendas and let's please try to get more fruits and vegetables in, in schools and hospital cafeterias and let's please try to provide, you know, subsidies for fruits and vegetables and all of that. But we don't need to bother attacking plant-based meat companies or or cell-based meat companies or or people like Will or, you know, so on. It's just we're going to need different people to, to explore different solutions because nobody has the answer to what is, what is possible. But yeah, these trade-offs are real and I don't think it makes sense to lie or be anti-scientific about it. Anyone who thinks that Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat is equivalent to a carrot is just being silly. I mean, we know that, we know that whole plant-based foods are, are very, very healthy. Uh, and so I don't have the answers because there are no answers. It's tricky.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I, I love the honesty and I think that's really reflective in the, in the piece of work, um, that you've put out there and I think it's, um, I'm excited for people to watch it. Um, where can we see it, uh, in the UK? I know I went via Vimeo. Is that, is that the main stay of where, where you can watch it?
Brian Kateman: I know that it's on Google Play, Vimeo, um, I'm pretty sure Amazon and Apple, Apple TV if you, if you have that out there. Um, Vimeo, yeah, lots of anywhere you could rent a movie for, you know, $4, it's, it's probably available to you.
Dr Rupy: Great, great. You need to get this on Netflix, dude.
Brian Kateman: I'm working on it. You have any, you have any
Dr Rupy: Work on it, man. Honestly, it needs to be on Netflix because it's, uh, it's brilliant. It's a lovely, um, it's not like the antithesis of the documentaries that we've all seen. It's just the most pragmatic, uh, and it's not, you know, it's not offensively, uh, vegan, it's not offensively, it's, it's, it's just begging the question and I think that's why I'm just such a fan of the, of the movie. Um, so yeah, yeah, definitely go watch it.
Brian Kateman: You're, I really appreciate that. Thank you. This has been such fun and yes, hopefully the, the film will, will make its way onto the next, next tier of streaming platforms. Um, but we'll, we'll, we'll make it, we'll make it have a long shelf life for many years to come and yeah, I really, I really had such a, such a great time chatting with you. Thank you.
Dr Rupy: I really hope you enjoyed that podcast episode with Brian Kateman. Remember, you can get the movie links and everything that you heard about today on the doctorskitchen.com/podcast page. And these are my personal ways in which to reduce meat consumption while still having almost like a meaty texture whenever you cook. So one of my favourite things to do is, uh, oyster mushrooms that you just tear up and then you bake them in, uh, soy, garlic, paprika and some sort of molasses, whether it be, uh, blackstrap molasses or pomegranate molasses. That combination baked for about 25 minutes to 30 minutes, turning halfway through, just creates a wonderful meaty texture and you can put that in tacos, you can put it on top of mash, you can do it just with simple greens. It really works well. Second thing is hemp seeds in shakes. I always add shelled hemp seeds to increase your protein content. Um, it's a good way of making sure that you're not reducing your protein stores, which is very important when it comes to enzyme, cell generation, hormone, uh, production, all these different elements that you need protein for beyond just muscle growth. And lastly, puy lentils. So pre-cooked puy lentils, instead of having a full mince, for example, you can half your mince and have puy lentils if you still want to eat meat, for example. And that way you reduce your meat content, increase your fiber content and you're not really missing out on the flavor. Anyway, those are my three top tips. There's plenty more ideas of non-meat recipes to reduce your meat consumption if you want to and I'll see you here next week.
